Foreign Husbands Bring Big Changes To Isaan

[Plus]

The original article's assumption that growing up with multiple languages is "confusing" is complete BS. It's been shown that kids will be slower to start speaking when growing up with multiple languages but the benefits far outweigh that by a far margin.

I think it has been shown otherwise, too. I'm not sure that all immigrant children either in the US or Europe are perfect native speakers of either English or their parents' language.

The study was quite specific - farang kids English proficiency doesn't go beyond "basic daily communication". Which is not surprising as basic daily communication is all English they ever get to practice.

[teddy_bare]

Neither of us eat 'farang' food - sadly I think the Thais may become cholestrol ridden unhealthy food eaters like so many in the West - hope not!

I recently had my cholestrol checked and it was just on the upper limit of average. When i said to the doctor "but i eat a lot of Thai food". He said " that's why my cholestrol level was high"! He said Thai food is cooked with too much oil and his own cholestrol level was TWICE mine. i had my thai g/f tested and her's was one and a half times more than mine.

So think again

[nikster]

Just a thought for the heck of it. I don't think it was the foreigners that married Thai people that brought Mickey Mouse, Hello Kitty, Winnie the Pooh, Warner Bros and that whole gang to the kingdom. Any more than they brought KFC, McDonalds, Pizza Hut, Starbucks, Subway etc. The problem with the Thai and their diet is all they know is Thai. In America deciding what kind of food to eat is a chore especially when deciding with a group of people. The Thai don't really have an interest in trying anything new...

Weeeell.... Thais are like Italians in this respect: If they don't like other food, you can't blame them too much. Thai food is definitely up there with the best food in the world. Seriously. I am originally from Austria, and Austrian food has a very high standing in my home country but I must say that both Italian in Italy and Thai in Thailand are better. I have also been to places where the local cuisine is just bad - Cuba comes to mind... but I disgress... all cuisines were not created equal, whatever the reason, and Thai is awesome. Even more so when you live in the country and discover the endless varieties...

I agree with everything else you said, if Thais start eating more western food, let them. Buddhism teaches impermanence, the law of constant change - resisting or disbelieving impermanence is delusion and leads to suffering. This is true even for the Thai language, Thai culture, and food that Thais eat.

[Plus]

It's just another hysterical reaction from acedemia. The basis for the report is probably that they are noticing many lower class people getting ideas above their station.

Whats behind this is that many of our kids are whiter and richer than the Chinese Thais. Pale skin is thought of as beautiful in Thailand and its always been a way to keep the Issan folk in their place ie. poor and greatful to produce rice at 10 baht per kilo for those lovely grasping Chinese middle men.

In the next 20 years, the Luk Krung will me earning immense wages compared to their parents and especially grandparents and they will be educated. This will be a serious threat to the current middle classes as their pool of cheap labour dries up. My wife is a great english speaker these days and does it ever piss off the Bank staff, sales people and Estate agents. Even more so when we go to schools and Universities and she has to translate because the proffessors and principals hardly peak a word of English, all of whom are whiter than her.

Most of the northern way of life came about through being kept in grinding poverty anyway. In my view, Issan people work much incredibly hard, then laze about. They don't have the money or the spare energy to be going to gyms, on cycling holidays, and all the other activites that are available to the middle classes in Bangkok.

Its only the falangs that have started to impact on this in the last 20-30 years or so.

Culture my arse, its the big fight to preserve the status quo. Lost already I hope!

That is certainly true - the status quo is under a threat but I doubt luk-kruengs who grew up in Isan will all earn immense wages, and their numbers are still relatively small to make an impact.

It's the impact on Thai kids who'll have their traditional values all messed up that is worrying Thais.

Not all changes are for the better.

There's an equally vocal group of farangs who'd rather see Thailand keeping her traditional values instead of destroying them.

[tingtonggirl]

I still like somtam very much and I can eat farang food too.

[kozi]

The prescribed monthly income for those here on a pension non - imm visa is 65000 baht per month. The average estimated by the survey is 60000 baht per month, appears just under the amount preferred by Thai Immigration. Quoted; farangs are changing Thai culture, girls marrying not for love, but for financial support, etc, etc, etc, etc.

Sounds like more reasons put forward by Thai officials, for why farangs are not good for Thailand.

I am married to a Thai and many of my friends have Thai wife’s all living in Thailand.

Our wife’s are fully participant in the community, mostly eat Thai food, observe and respect all the religious activities and festivals. Being married to a farang has made no difference to their attitudes towards the community, plus many farangs resident here believe: as in Rome do what the Romans do and are loyal to Thai culture, including having great repect for their Thai spouse`s family/parents and are fully supportive.

Farangs who are here legally and who qualify to stay under the requirements of Immigration, are mostly good law abiding residents who pose no threat to Thai culture.

Edited November 17, 2006 by kozi

[nikster]

There's an equally vocal group of farangs who'd rather see Thailand keeping her traditional values instead of destroying them.

Those farangs should pick up their Buddhism book, or easier still, just open their eyes for a moment, and realize that everything changes. You try to make changes for the better, of course, but trying to make things _not_ change is just plain silly.

I happen to be of the opinion that more cross-cultural experiences are always better, no matter where and no matter how. Anything that helps people broaden their horizon and maybe realize that we all live together on this small ball of dust hurling through space - the better.

Living in different cultures for me has had the effect not to learn how different they all are but instead to realize how much is the same everywhere - the same things are important to people, love, friends, family, eating, delusions that money buys happiness, following the wrong ideals etc... the core values - and even the core delusions - are very much the same for all people everywhere.

I find this comforting.

Do we define ourselves through our similarities or through our differences? I am hoping that more people will do the former, and fewer the latter.

[nikster]

I still like somtam very much and I can eat farang food too.

When I first got here, I was laughing at the absurdity of seeing a McDonald's. When my Thai girlfriend (now wife) told me that she liked going there as a teenager, I found it even more amusing. I said to her, here you are, in Thailand, you can eat like a King down on the street for 40 Baht, yet you go to McD and get a crappy cheeseburger for 50 baht?

She just said: It's good to have variety.

She was right of course. Even I go to McD twice a year or so. Variety in food is a good thing.

[somchai jones]

Totally agree. Not being married to a Thai, I am not biased either, I just call it as I see it.

Not much to add as you've answered the points very well.

Just to expand on the language points though.

The absolute opposite of what the Prof. concludes is true. Children of mixed Thai-Farang couples that I know invariably have a much better grasp of English than their Thai peers. Their grasp of Thai is usually similar to their Thai peers.

Indeed the children of a mixed couple of any race are in the wonderful position of growing up learning two languages fluently.

[Far Angst]

I am acquainted with the lady Associate Professor who headed up this research. First, I will ask her if this report is a fair reflection in English of her publication that was written in Thai. Only then will I make any judgement about the biases that appear to be revealed.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about this from the researcher herself from the,,,, Faculty of Nursing, was it?

[Plus]

Children of mixed Thai-Farang couples that I know invariably have a much better grasp of English than their Thai peers. Their grasp of Thai is usually similar to their Thai peers.

But do they have the same grasp of English as their English peers??? It's easy to be better than Thais, the benchmark is very low.

As for Thai proficiencey - the study does not explicitly measure these kids skills against other Thais.

I wouldn't even try to pass an opinion on Thai proficiency myself.

[Colonel_Mustard]

The original article's assumption that growing up with multiple languages is "confusing" is complete BS. It's been shown that kids will be slower to start speaking when growing up with multiple languages but the benefits far outweigh that by a far margin.

I think it has been shown otherwise, too. I'm not sure that all immigrant children either in the US or Europe are perfect native speakers of either English or their parents' language.

The study was quite specific - farang kids English proficiency doesn't go beyond "basic daily communication". Which is not surprising as basic daily communication is all English they ever get to practice.

Mind you basic daily communication proficiency in English is far more than most Thai kids ever achieve, so it's still an advantage. I would have thought that the offspring from a fair number of mixed-Thai farang relationships attend International schools, so their English would certainly go beyond 'basic daily communication'.

I wonder how this study was carried out. Did they test the children in both languages and compare it to their Thai counterparts? Or just make an educated/uneducated guess.

Regardless, I would guess that children from these mixed relationships get, on average, a higher level of education than Thai children from the Isaan region. So that can only be a good thing.

The rest of the study probably isn't far off the truth but the reporter has certainly put a negative slant on what I consider to be positive things (exposure to different cultures, languages and cuisines and bringing additional wealth into the region). If Thai society doesn't like these changes, then maybe they should first take a good look at themselves and wonder why they have done so little to help the people of the NE and other rural areas.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Colonel_Mustard

[vertigobkk]

I think they based the results on one imaginary family.

'studies', 'survey' lololol

Who knows exactly what it is they are trying to acheive

Piss off.

[Plus]

Farangs with avarage income of 60k a month can't afford international schools. I guess the kids in question, especially from the villages, go to regular Thai government schools. Do they even have international schools in Khon Kaen, Udon and Roi Et?

[Colonel_Mustard]

Farangs with avarage income of 60k a month can't afford international schools. I guess the kids in question, especially from the villages, go to regular Thai government schools. Do they even have international schools in Khon Kaen, Udon and Roi Et?

No idea to be honest but I think there is in Khorat.

As the study is comparing mixed relationships and their offspring to Thai equivalents, I personally would think that the children from mixed realtionships have advantages. There is more likelihood that they will be able to stay in the educational system longer (and not just pulled out of schoolas soon as possible to work on the farm), they will have exposure to both cultures and languages and while they might not be 100% proficient in English, I would bet that their English skills are a great deal stronger than their classmates.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Colonel_Mustard

[Martin]

I am acquainted with the lady Associate Professor who headed up this research. First, I will ask her if this report is a fair reflection in English of her publication that was written in Thai. Only then will I make any judgement about the biases that appear to be revealed.

I'm looking forward to hearing more about this from the researcher herself from the,,,, Faculty of Nursing, was it?

Don't read anything into "Faculty of Nursing".

I seem to remember that, the first time that I met her, she told me she was a Mathemetician.

Her PhD Dissertation Proposal puts forward a plan for a study to lead to a PhD in Development Science.

The study was to be entitled: "Dynamic Systems Modelling for Sustainablity of Development Programs: The case of Thailand's Family Planning Program".

That is quite esoteric mathematics impacting on a Social Science topic.

Medical faculties often have mathematicians (particularly statisticians) in them nowadays.

My gut feeling is that I shall find that the articles in the newspapers that we are discussing are travesties of what is written in the Research Report.

It is always desirable to remember that the job of an Editor and staff of a newspaper is to produce an issue that sells; and that people don't buy fair, balanced, but boring, stuff. Those who buy a newspaper want some bang for their buck, and so that is what is 'found' by the journalists.

But, as I said, I am going to be a boring old fuddy-dud on this, who suspends his judgement till he has looked into it a bit deeper.

Then I intend to post here what I find out, and I will send you a PM, 'Far Angst'.

[Thaddeus]

Children of mixed Thai-Farang couples that I know invariably have a much better grasp of English than their Thai peers. Their grasp of Thai is usually similar to their Thai peers.

But do they have the same grasp of English as their English peers??? It's easy to be better than Thais, the benchmark is very low.

As for Thai proficiencey - the study does not explicitly measure these kids skills against other Thais.

I wouldn't even try to pass an opinion on Thai proficiency myself.

I can't speak for the whole ex-pat community, but I can certainly give an opinion from my local one, not an Isaan city, but the boonies.

The children of mixed race couples do fair far better in English than their pure Thai peers, their Thai ability is about the same, at least from the school record cards it is.

Ok, as others have pointed out, my 6 year olds English is just basic stuff, but it's a good foundation for going further. I would expect that in a few years time her command of my mother tongue will be better than the Thai English teacher.

Add to that, that with my help, she will finish her Schooling and probably end up as an English Teacher.... here.... in Isaan. That can only be good for the region.

[Martin]

Re farang food:

I am so far 'in the sticks' that both Udon Thani and Khon Kaen airports are an hour's drive away from me.

But I keep a chest freezer well stocked up with excellent farang food, delivered to me by a man in Khon Kaen. He even brings me apple pies as good as my grandmother used to bake, and that is high praise, indeed.

Pretty well everything available in Bangkok and Pattaya can come up here on an overnight bus. So, with a bit of organisation, it is possible to have much of the best of both worlds. Not Yorkshire fish and chips fresh from the chippy, though.

So I just have to settle for black pudding as good as any in Bury, and tripe and onions as good as Mother could produce in that Mecca of tripe-eaters, Ashton-Under-Lyne.

Any of you close to Khon Kaen can PM me, if you want that man's phone number.

And any who drive up to Nong Khai from Khon Kaen pass a restaurant that has that farang food, draft Leo, and does superb 'pla yang'. Again, PM me.

[thaigene2]

I was wondering if anyone has done a study on the latent racism that say Bangkok and particularly Thai Chinese have had on Isan?

Yes I was wondering the same thing. The underlying message of this study seems to be that Issan Thais are 'losing' their culture becuase of an invasion of farangs and farang culture/language.

Don't suppose Dr Long-name would run a survey on how the economy of Issan and Thailand for that matter is entirely controlled by thai-chinese, what affect that's had on "Thai culture" and how the thai-lao people of Issan have suffered as a result..Or how about a survey on how many thai-chinese families in issan have married other thai-chinese compared with how many married thai-lao? What do you reckon the ration would be? 10-1, 5-1?

Nope - you'll never see a survey like that.. The farangs are the bad guys. Be forewarned - farangs will be a really convenient scapegoat here one day. Good to have an exit strategy.

[Satheep]

So what Western 'delicacies' does your Issan wife enjoy?

Mine enjoys a roast dinner, mince and mash, fish and chips, Spaghetti bolognese, hot dogs with loads of fried onions and British breakfast (sausage, fried eggs, mushrooms, fried bread, baked beans etc).

What is annoying is she doesn't put any weight on at all.

My wife is from Issan. We lived in the UK for a year before coming to live in Thailand. I took her to see the major attractions in London and elsewhere.

I asked her recently what she remembered and liked about the UK. I thought perhaps the London Eye, maybe Buckingham Palace, or perhaps even Brighton beach.

Fish and chips is all she said. Anything else I asked - she thought a while and said no!

Neither of us eat 'farang' food - sadly I think the Thais may become cholestrol ridden unhealthy food eaters like so many in the West - hope not!

My wife is from the South. On our honeymoon we went to Paris. But she would only go if I promished to take her to a Thai restaurant every day. Which I did.

[Dakhar]

They went into the villages and interviewed people then published their findings. Why not accept them as they are?

I, personally, tend to agree with most of it, and some arguments against are simply amazing - "My parents didn't teach me my language".

Talking of language - the researches can certainly make judgements on Thai language proficiency. I don't know how they judged English, but they probably compared it to native English speakers, not other Thais learning English at schools only. Can these luk-kruengs speak English like English children of the same age? I doubt it. Do they speak German or Swedish?

Age difference and education levels - why even argue about it? Most farangs are over 50 and most Thais are about 35 and with no high school education. How can you even begin to argue against that?

Why not accept them.... because I am educated in the area of language aquisition. Because I have a Doctorate degree, because I think my education runs circles around the author's, and because I am not a moron.

[Estrada]

CROSS-CULTURAL MARRIAGES

Foreign husbands bring big changes to Isaan

KHON KAEN: -- Somtam is out and hamburgers are in as more Northeast women adopt husbands' customs, according to a survey of the cultural impact of increasing Thai-Westerner marriages

Many Thai women in the Northeast who have married foreigners are now keener on eating pizzas and hamburgers than somtam and prefer celebrating Western holidays like Christmas and Valentine's Day to traditional Thai holidays, a Khon Kaen University study has found.

Cross-cultural marriages have caused major social changes in the Northeast, including less family participation in community activities, the study - released yesterday - said.

A mix of various aspects of the two cultures was on the rise, the study found. It cited the example of many Thai wives now being keener on eating Western food and almost forgetting somtam - the region's popular papaya salad dish.

The head of the study, Asst Prof Supawatanakorn Wongtha-nawasu of the university's Faculty of Nursing, said her team interviewed 231 Thai wives in Khon Kaen, Udon Thani and Roi Et and found that foreign son-in-laws had caused the community-oriented Northeasterners to become the more individualistic and give less attention to social interaction.

-- The Nation 2006-11-17

In my experience the Thai Professors decide what answers they want and then get their student researchers to ask questions that are deliberately angled to give the biased result they want.

In a Survey carried out by another University regarding Farangs coming to Thailand, the first question I was asked by a female student researcher was "Are you a sex tourist". Of course I was offended by this, and replied that I was nothing of the kind. Had it not been that she was a stunner dressed in school uniform, with the biggest knockers I have seen in Thailand, I would not have answered any further questions. All the other questions were of a similar nature, I would assume in a deliberate attempt to make the survey results show that most Farangs coming to Thailand are sex Tourists, where do they get these ideas?

However, since I met my Thai wife in the UK where she was working for me in an Export/Import business, and we have lived in Thailand for 12 years and have 3 children, the eldest born in the UK, the Researcher seemed a bit put out that I did not fit in with their preconceived ideas about all Farangs visiting Thailand. Having had business with Thailand since 1982, I have little doubt that most of the responses that do not meet with the Ajarn's view get binned, and are not counted.

So forget this survey, it is biased and inaccurate.

On the other hand, I do sympathise with the view that Farangs may change the Thai village culture, and so I deliberately do not buy the parents, new houses, a buffalo, pick ups, cars, TVs, video players,etc, and leave them in abject poverty. I speak Khymer, Lao and Thai with them, and eat Thai food, as well as celebrating Songkran, Loy Kratong and Budhist festivals. I join in the Village parties and Karaoke, and clap when the most appallingly out of tune vocalist murders a Thai song. If we all do the same we can prevent the change in Thai Culture.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Estrada

[pukkagent]

The day that a horse wasn't your car, and a boat wasn't your plane, was the day when people came over and brought inter-culturalism with them, but there will always be people who prefer the old ways. I don't think tradition ever really dies. Nothing can erase my childhood ingrained memories of Christmases and Easters, and I'm sure the same must be said for the ladies of Thailand, in their hearts. I hope their children learn to celebrate the East, & the West.

But burgers and chips over healthier food... I don't think that's necessarily going to be a good change! In England and the US, the statistics show that these foods are probably as bad to your arteries as smoke is to your lungs.

I can't get decent chips where I am, unless I go to Phuket town. It's a nice treat, although I mostly have Thai food. it's all you can get, and I love Thai food markets. Thai people are so brilliant at getting food that's delicious and quick out!

[Plus]

Why not accept them.... because I am educated in the area of language aquisition. Because I have a Doctorate degree, because I think my education runs circles around the author's, and because I am not a moron.

So you think that kids from mixed farang families have the same grasp of English as English kids growing in the UK? Even Thaddeus a few posts earlier doesn't make such a claim. His case fits rather well in what was published in the study.

It looks like the researchers had long, indepth interviews with Thai wives, family members, and general village folk, not farangs.

[dezeure]

So what Western 'delicacies' does your Issan wife enjoy?

Mine enjoys a roast dinner, mince and mash, fish and chips, Spaghetti bolognese, hot dogs with loads of fried onions and British breakfast (sausage, fried eggs, mushrooms, fried bread, baked beans etc).

What is annoying is she doesn't put any weight on at all.

weird cause most thai women gain weight like hel_l when they eat western food...

oh and btw, all those things you named are not under my 'delicacies' but rather 'unhealthy (tasty) fast food' except for the roast...

greets

Sam

[Mosha]

My wife is a Southerner. Will eat spaghetti if pork is used instead of beef. Occaisionally eats bacon and eggs and likes a ham and cheese sandwich. Christmas is what most Brits look upon it as. An excuse to have a party. We put a party on for the local kids, with cake and small gifts. The evening we have an adults party with the pc's karaoke program the entertainment. Oh she likes the tree being up and as already started pressing for that to come out. The locals like to see it lit up. We put it outside, and they always slow down to look at it.

[Martin]

In post #109, 'thaigene 2' said:

"The farangs are the bad guys. Be forewarned - farangs will be a really convenient scapegoat here one day. Good to have an exit strategy."

I know that there is some fear of that, but I doubt that it will get that bad.

There was a time some years ago when it was feared that the indigenous Thais would turn nasty to the interloper Chinese, as was happening in Indonesia. But events proved otherwise. Maybe the indigenous Thais are simply less nasty in their natures, or the Chinese had done just enough intermarrying and taking of Thai names to blur the distinction, or some of both. And since it didn't happen to the Chinese, I don't think it will happen to the farangs.

I can't comment regarding Bangkok, or even the provincial cities, but the farangs don't seem to be denigrated half as much in the rural areas as the Chinese are.

The villagers seem to develop a mixed view of farangs.

They start by seeing one or two farangs who, in the immortal phrase of somebody who posted on this website, said "We are all just working class retirees drinking our beer and chasing a bit of tail in the sun".

Then, as and when they come in contact with a lot more farangs, they start to say, with surprise, about a small proportion of the farangs: "Oh, he is high farang. Not like other farangs."

When I first came here, it took about five years of always wearing trousers and shoes, going to temple ceremonies (but sneaking out after five minutes to read a book in the car), and refusing beer in favour of 'nam pao' at wedding receptions, to get to the point where my wife was told: "Your husband not like farang; like Thai".

But now, a farang can come here and be classified pretty quickly into 'high' or 'low'. But the villagers are quite tolerant of what they see as 'low' farangs; 'stoopid' may be the verdict, but it is said tolerantly.

However, I don't think that they will never stop asking my mia farang: "What do you feed him on?". Makes me feel like a sea lion in a zoo!

[Dakhar]

Why not accept them.... because I am educated in the area of language aquisition. Because I have a Doctorate degree, because I think my education runs circles around the author's, and because I am not a moron.

So you think that kids from mixed farang families have the same grasp of English as English kids growing in the UK? Even Thaddeus a few posts earlier doesn't make such a claim. His case fits rather well in what was published in the study.

It looks like the researchers had long, indepth interviews with Thai wives, family members, and general village folk, not farangs.

Oh I don't rely on my "thinking." I rely on research based on real data.

[Plus]

And so what is the real data on English skills of mixed farang kids growing in rural Thailand? For that matter, what is the real data on immigrants children command of their father's language in mutlicultural families? How many Americans still speak Italian or German? How many Candians still speak Ukranian? How many generations did it take to completely lose it?

And on the other hand, are immigrant children always as proficient in Engish, French, or German, or Dutch as native kids?

[Colonel_Mustard]

Why not accept them.... because I am educated in the area of language aquisition. Because I have a Doctorate degree, because I think my education runs circles around the author's, and because I am not a moron.

So you think that kids from mixed farang families have the same grasp of English as English kids growing in the UK? Even Thaddeus a few posts earlier doesn't make such a claim. His case fits rather well in what was published in the study.

It looks like the researchers had long, indepth interviews with Thai wives, family members, and general village folk, not farangs.

Probably they won't have the same English level as those that grow up in the UK because they are not surrounded by the language to the same degree. I would guess that most will have Thai as their native language but also be pretty fluent in English. No doubt the situation would be reversed if the mixed couple were living in the UK or USA.

The point of this 'study' seems to be more about the differences between mixed relationships and 100% Thai ones in Isaan, not about 100% farang ones in a native English speaking country.

I'm sure these family members, village folk and wives that you suspect have been interviewed aren't exactly the most reliable source of information as to the English language proficiency of mixed relationship kids.

Edited November 17, 2006 by Colonel_Mustard