Mobi Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 It's all rather elementary isn't it?Just show the evidence. In spite of Thaksin’s efforts to smuggle the media, it was still relatively easy to track the catalogue of his ‘crimes’ by reading factual reports in the local English language press. I guess he was too arrogant to worry too much about what was written in English – or maybe he was concerned at the international outcry if he tried to gag them too much. Either way, there have been thousands of critical, and very damning stories written over the past few years, and apart from a few ludicrous (and failed) libel cases, very few denials were issued by the ruling government. Generally the stories would be printed, and then they would disappear, as there was no follow up, for obvious reasons. So those of us who have cared enough to really follow what was happening have absolutely no doubt in our minds, that he was a very evil, arrogant, culpable criminal, who took corruption and malfeasance in office to a higher and unacceptable level – even for Thailand. The problem is that the country and it’s institutions are still totally corrupt – and this presents huge obstacles in bringing this man to book. However, today they seem to have nailed Thaksin’s step brother in law, and have even implicated his wife and maid on criminal charges. The net tightens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportRider Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Seems to me that the list demonstrates that so-called democracy was indeed broken. Democracy is more than just villagers voting for the man they want, it must imply a system to ensure that power cannot be usurped by an individual for personal benefit. If the list is correct then this has sadly happened; the fact that the man was elected does not prove democracy. By highlighting these items the new regime is showing it recognises a much broader scope of factors for healthy democracy and I hope they are flagging that all these factors will be open for examination in the new democracy yet to be constructed. Sportrider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
opothai Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 the man got too big for his boots along with bush and bliar and a lot of others. when politicians get voted into power they should be held accountable for the false promises they made to get that power, and stealing from the coffers, well!!! after all if i lied to get promotion or stole from the coffers, when caught i would be sacked, simple but toooo simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadianvisitor Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Seems to me that the list demonstrates that so-called democracy was indeed broken. Democracy is more than just villagers voting for the man they want, it must imply a system to ensure that power cannot be usurped by an individual for personal benefit. If the list is correct then this has sadly happened; the fact that the man was elected does not prove democracy. By highlighting these items the new regime is showing it recognises a much broader scope of factors for healthy democracy and I hope they are flagging that all these factors will be open for examination in the new democracy yet to be constructed. Sportrider It is indeed a great oppurtunity for Thailand to cleanse it's political system. It may not be perfect but methinks it will be better. I myself was quite happily surprised when the elction of the new head of state was set for a year or from now. There will be a window of opportunity once and this is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadianvisitor Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 the man got too big for his boots along with bush and bliar and a lot of others.when politicians get voted into power they should be held accountable for the false promises they made to get that power, and stealing from the coffers, well!!! after all if i lied to get promotion or stole from the coffers, when caught i would be sacked, simple but toooo simple. And you would be thrown in jail for theft to boot. These thieving elected officials have sold the people all around the World a catastrophic bill of goods. They tell the people they pay too much in taxes, give them tax breaks, and then sell all of the government assests to thier buddies to make up the difference. Then a new government gets elected and tells the people they are broke! It's the same model all over, it sure isn't the neocon right wingers who are telling people they are broke! We should hang them all next to Saddam Hussein who wasn't tried on the international stage in Brussells was he? Corruption is treason in my eyes. Worse than stealing. Total betrayal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
popshirt Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 And in the USA all it took was a semen stain on a blue dress to get President Clinton impeached! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobi Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 In spite of Thaksin’s efforts to smuggle the media, Smuggle = Gag. One of my "senior" moments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henningj Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Yeah - and if all in this list can be proven - why do not a DEMOCRACY try to drag him to court in stead of rolling out tanks and guns in the street to elect new leaders... Thaksin did not do everything right - bu my Good, he is the best thing that happened to Thailand for th last 200 years... / hj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
unforgiven Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 How about the positive impacts? the positive aspects(increase school years, the 30 bt medical etc) where all to gain support from the poor masses they were smoke on mirrors covering up his massive coruption.........good riddance to this megalamaniac..........................now lets get back to the 24/7 party we were having before Toxin....................yeeehhaaa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanget Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 How about the positive impacts? the positive aspects(increase school years, the 30 bt medical etc) where all to gain support from the poor masses they were smoke on mirrors covering up his massive coruption.........good riddance to this megalamaniac..........................now lets get back to the 24/7 party we were having before Toxin....................yeeehhaaa Quite SO!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oliver Reed Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 "What Thaksin had done wrong"Summary of Council for National Security's "White Paper" detailing Thaksin's alleged wrongdoings Why did Council for National Security overthrow the Thaksin administration? Corruption/conflict of interests - Changed concessions on mobile phone business as excise tax - Created satellite business to gain promotion from Board of Investment - Corruption at Suvarnabhumi Airport and the purchase of CTX bomb detection scanners - Corruption in the construction of railway Airport Link - Lack of transparency in privatisation of state enterprises - Media interference Abuse of power - Appointed family, relatives, close aides to highranking positions of the state - Used state budget without seeking approval from the House in projects to promote government popularity - Abuse of power by negotiating with foreign countries for the interest of themselves (Exim bank loans) - Abuse of power by instructing state agencies to investigate assets of government opponents Infringe on ethics and moral integrity of country leader - Sold satellite concession and television station to a foreign country - Evaded taxes from share sale Interference in political check system - Interfered with the Senate which appointed independent agencies that checked the government - Interfered with the appointment of Election Commission, Constitution Court judge and National Counter Corruption Commission and AuditorGeneral Policy flaws that led to human rights violation - Extrajudicial killing of drug suspects - Policy mismanagement and abuse of power in solving violence in the south Created rift and destroyed unity of the public and instigating confrontation - Blocked information that checked the government and the prime minister - Created confrontation between anti and pro government supporters. --The Nation 2006-11-21 Allegedly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mobi Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Yeah - and if all in this list can be proven - why do not a DEMOCRACY try to drag him to court in stead of rolling out tanks and guns in the street to elect new leaders...Thaksin did not do everything right - bu my Good, he is the best thing that happened to Thailand for th last 200 years... / hj You actually joined TV today, and this is your first post - to propogate this view? Why don't you just read, learn about Thai politics and talk to educated people here who understand what's been happening, before making outrageously ignorant statements on matters that deserve intelligent and reasoned debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edh Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 I have read many of posters reactions and only ask this... Do you relly mean or think, it will be westernized by kicking Mr. Thaksin out? Asia will still be the most corrupted part of the world - after Africa, what ever we may think, do or live by. Wait, China will open soon, and I fear that it will consume us all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oevna Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 What.... is that it?? Thought there was going to be something major, but this is just normal for Thailand... guess it's normal for every government worldwide Well, I think those alleged offences are pretty bad. But just because it has been "normal for Thailand" for so many years doesn't mean that nothing should be done about it. If the allegations are true, then they should do something about it. Should it have been a coup? I don't know. But complacence only encourages that sort of behavior to flourish. Of course, in a Democracy the best way to change the governing politicans is to vote them out. But there hasn't been a culture of Democracy in Thailand for that long. It takes time for that to take hold in a population. It is easy to manipulate the people when they don't yet have the right measure of suspicion, and the sense that every citizen's vote counts. But I think that Thailand is getting there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportRider Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 I have read many of posters reactions and only ask this...Do you relly mean or think, it will be westernized by kicking Mr. Thaksin out? Asia will still be the most corrupted part of the world - after Africa, what ever we may think, do or live by. Wait, China will open soon, and I fear that it will consume us all... Um, were we talking about westernization? I thought we were talking about a different concept, Democracy? About Taksin being the 'best thing'... to test any hypothesis you need a 'control'... In case of country leaders, this is impossible because you would need two Thailands. Thailand 1 has Taksin for a leader and Thailand 2 has a leader less motivated by personal gain and more motivated to the improvement of his country's situation. After a few years you take measurements and see which Thailand has performed best. Logic would indicate that Thailand 2 would do better. In reality, given that we cannot conduct this experiment, we can only guess what the situation would be with a different leader in power, and also only guess whether the improvements in Thailand over the last few years are *because* of Taksin or mostly would have happened anyway. Sportrider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chelseafan Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 They should of added the inconsistant bar closing times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SportRider Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Yeah - and if all in this list can be proven - why do not a DEMOCRACY try to drag him to court in stead of rolling out tanks and guns in the street to elect new leaders... / hj Presumably the new regime would say that democracy/the system was so broken it could not be relied upon to give a fair and reasonable outcome to a court case indicting Mr T. Sportrider Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaysfeld Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 What.... is that it?? Thought there was going to be something major, but this is just normal for Thailand... guess it's normal for every government worldwide It is part of the problem isn't it? Corruption and using power for own gains are considered normal in many part of the world. And people accept it directly or indirectly by not doing anything about it. Here in my part of the world (Scandinavia) a Minister will lose their job for something that in most other countries are considered nothing. Eg. if it is discovered that a minister didn't pay her/his TV license for some years even though they had a TV, there will be a big scandal. It just happened in Sweden. 2 Ministers had to go and th Government had to change. We really live on another planet here in our all so perfect democracy in Northern Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kaysfeld Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 He didn't get ousted for doing allegedly good things, there's no need to include them. Good things ? What good things ? Example - a murderer or paedophile or bank robber is judged on his "bad" deeds - not whatever "good" he might have done. That's the law in most countries I suppose. The so-called "good" things may be considered mitigating circumstances and may be taken into consideration in sentencing. But "bad" is "bad" surely ? No matter how much "good" may be claimed as well. There's not a balance sheet where "good" and "bad" can be used to cancel each other out. MalcolmL You are so right. you can't pay for the bad, with also doing some good. It doesn't work that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johpa Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 For what it is worth, here is a link to an interesting interview with author and journalist Paul Handley, author of a recent controversial book on Thailand. He has some interesting observations on the recent coup and upon specific failings of Taksin. The interview begins about 1/2 way through the audio file. http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/sto...006/1790433.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deerpig Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 That's the best they could do? Come on folks, there is no smoking gun on this list that would justify a military coup and the claim that there was no democracy under Thaksin. This list is an attempt to justify the coup, and a poor one at that. Thaksin was an outsider who challenged the entrenched elite and backroom military power structure and was booted out. The protesters never believed in the principle of one vote, one person. They are the pigs in Animal Farm, whose vote is "more equal than others." When elections finally are rigged up, we'll have another decade of weak, forgettable leaders who will do nothing as infrastructure projects are started and abandoned while the country is bled dry. Next time you drive past the forlorn concrete columns of the ghost elevated highway in Bangkok thank the anti-Thaksin protests because that is now Thailand's future. Personally, I thought Thaksin was an arrogant bastard and his handling of the situation in the south was horrible. But he got things done, which is more than anyone else can say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOOD Robin Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 He didn't get ousted for doing allegedly good things, there's no need to include them. Good things ? What good things ? Example - a murderer or paedophile or bank robber is judged on his "bad" deeds - not whatever "good" he might have done. That's the law in most countries I suppose. The so-called "good" things may be considered mitigating circumstances and may be taken into consideration in sentencing. But "bad" is "bad" surely ? No matter how much "good" may be claimed as well. There's not a balance sheet where "good" and "bad" can be used to cancel each other out. MalcolmL RIGHT ! He was really bad, and for that he has to be punished ! Don't know HOW ? Go back to the Middle Ages, they didn't even "judge" somebody when he did some bad things, they acted by cutting off his hand when a person stole a bread... I think Toxin stole just a little bit more than a bread, didn't he ? And now these days there are still countries in this civilizised world where they do the same... You really don't want to see him in Thailand (land of the free people) anymore ? Well, act as they do in China and you are rid of him... No mercy on somebody who cheated his Own (poor) people ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MyFriend You Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 YIKES...What a charade! More accusations, but still no evidence. How long has it been now? I would be much happier with only a few accusations and some solid evidence that would actually stand up in a court of law. If there were so many illegal wrongdoings by Thaksin and co. surely there must be a little bit of evidence???? As I have suggested previously, there is a lot more than Thaksins money involved in this coup. OK kiddies, follow the MONEY and the POWER and see where it leads ( not just Thaksin, EVERY interested party). OOPS.....who was really behind the coup? Who had the most to lose? Ahhh....the truth cannot be told because well, you know why.... Easier to trash the guy who has done more for the majority of people in this country than the 3 previous military hacks. ( and we know who they reported to, don't we?) While Thaksin was no angel, the coup that has taken place was simply a response to a democratic power shift. Not unlike the response in a dictatorship. Whoever has control of the military has the last word. Who had the control of the military in this situation? Who had the most to lose? The naive solution is to blame a billionaire who had it all before he became a politician. TravelGuy - your right on the money, so was Toksin - he was an exceptional business man, like Bill Gates, hate him for making money but love him for being a smart business man and lets face it, he did a lot for the little guy in Thailand...............I have been associated with Thailand since I was 18 years old, 1968 - lived there on & off now since then, over 30 years - owned a bar 4 years, invested in Muay Thai Boxers, been there, seen that - Coups have hapened a dozen times in the past, 3 while the Thais didn't even know there was a coup, no news xcept the US Stars & Stripes ( anyone remember when the Govt cut out the nudie pics in playboy magazine, before it hit the stands??) I myself, have withdrawn all my money from the Thai Bank, cut my losses (gains??) and am looking elsewhere - I love LoS but see a very dark cloud on the distant horizon akin to Venezuela, Greece, Bolivia and in some respect, Hong Kong - reduced rights for foreigners, excessive taxes, more expensive visa's and rediculuous requirements for foreigners - and a move to nationalize foreign entities/business in the country. I see no short term answer to the growing problems in Thai society, government and attitude. I'd rather live in PI where at least when they are screwing me, they do it in english and Tax you once!! not a dozen times.....(Oh, forgot, I speak very passable Thai, can hold conversations for days) So Long LOS - catch ya in the next life!!! "Cry Havoc, then let slip the dog's of War" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiang mai Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 wow, yeah, he really was bad. and we all know that every one of his predecessors and opponents are paragons of virtue and accountability. and now everything is going to be fine because that terrible man has been chased away, martial law has been imposed, poilitical gatherings are banned, the constitution has been torn up, and thai democracy has been, uh... what IS the status of thai democracy right now, anyway? oh YEAH; it's being RESTORED! i feel a lot better. and i am sure that the millions of thais who voted him into office TWICE feel much better, too. mai pen rai! I'm confused, we're talking about Thaksin or Bush? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zoltan Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 They forgot to add the closing of bars at 1am? Bravo! .... Can that policy be reversed now that he is gone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zink Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Slightly off-topic, but here is an interesting article by Asian Human Rights Commission on current issues: http://thailand.ahrchk.net/mainfile.php/ge...37/?alt=english Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rken Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 "What Thaksin had done wrong"Summary of Council for National Security's "White Paper" detailing Thaksin's alleged wrongdoings Why did Council for National Security overthrow the Thaksin administration? Corruption/conflict of interests - Changed concessions on mobile phone business as excise tax - Created satellite business to gain promotion from Board of Investment - Corruption at Suvarnabhumi Airport and the purchase of CTX bomb detection scanners - Corruption in the construction of railway Airport Link - Lack of transparency in privatisation of state enterprises - Media interference Abuse of power - Appointed family, relatives, close aides to highranking positions of the state - Used state budget without seeking approval from the House in projects to promote government popularity - Abuse of power by negotiating with foreign countries for the interest of themselves (Exim bank loans) - Abuse of power by instructing state agencies to investigate assets of government opponents Infringe on ethics and moral integrity of country leader - Sold satellite concession and television station to a foreign country - Evaded taxes from share sale Interference in political check system - Interfered with the Senate which appointed independent agencies that checked the government - Interfered with the appointment of Election Commission, Constitution Court judge and National Counter Corruption Commission and AuditorGeneral Policy flaws that led to human rights violation not sure how to work this thing. but reality or really who the f gives a f sorry but did I miss something about corruption in the gov's around the world, are u supprised or what. what is it that makes the world go round. if you think it some divine Ideals religious or national your wronggggggg. its about the money money do u get it put your head back in the sand. its global. - Extrajudicial killing of drug suspects - Policy mismanagement and abuse of power in solving violence in the south Created rift and destroyed unity of the public and instigating confrontation - Blocked information that checked the government and the prime minister - Created confrontation between anti and pro government supporters. --The Nation 2006-11-21 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rken Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Yeah - and if all in this list can be proven - why do not a DEMOCRACY try to drag him to court in stead of rolling out tanks and guns in the street to elect new leaders... / hj Presumably the new regime would say that democracy/the system was so broken it could not be relied upon to give a fair and reasonable outcome to a court case indicting Mr T. Sportrider sorry dont mean to be dull or repetitive but everthing in cluding heart sound works opposing opposites why should politics be any different and why be so upset everything balances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkg1960 Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 Intersting list. The only problem is proving it. Proving that men in uniform have appoited their friends in state enterprises and have breached the trust of their sharholders is much easier. How about trippling the economic growth? Or having been able to reduce the death of infants in half? Having been able to reduce the tea money that the friends of the couptakers asked for a place in university or demonstration schools? having supplies the poor with microcredit (not a bad thing given the nobel prize this year), or having been able to help out the poor when their was a disaster (Have not yet seen a hirake in uniform this time, maybe they were too busy). Or what about having reduced the number of children addicted to drugs. And did Thaksin not get his satellite license from the last military government, as well the mobile phone license? Some people must have profitted? It is so easy to make a list, substantiating is much more of a headache.Wait till that other general Chavalit makes a list about those other generals, that would be more fun. By the way what happened with the freedom of speech, that Sondhi could use to criticize Thaksin? Why aren't we treated with the same courtesy? Just wondering Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rken Posted November 21, 2006 Share Posted November 21, 2006 I have read many of posters reactions and only ask this... Do you relly mean or think, it will be westernized by kicking Mr. Thaksin out? Asia will still be the most corrupted part of the world - after Africa, what ever we may think, do or live by. Wait, China will open soon, and I fear that it will consume us all... Um, were we talking about westernization? I thought we were talking about a different concept, Democracy? About Taksin being the 'best thing'... to test any hypothesis you need a 'control'... In case of country leaders, this is impossible because you would need two Thailands. Thailand 1 has Taksin for a leader and Thailand 2 has a leader less motivated by personal gain and more motivated to the improvement of his country's situation. After a few years you take measurements and see which Thailand has performed best. Logic would indicate that Thailand 2 would do better. In reality, given that we cannot conduct this experiment, we can only guess what the situation would be with a different leader in power, and also only guess whether the improvements in Thailand over the last few years are *because* of Taksin or mostly would have happened anyway. Sportrider The point is your buying into the game. Getting side tracked by the extremes. Always a north and a south. always has been always will be. Kind of like the inbreath and the exhale. Can I be more Clear. Keep your focus. Its really only UUUU Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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