Beach bans on the burkini in France sparks widespread debate

[Opl]

1 hour ago, farcanell said:

 

So... Are you suggesting it's something like deliberately pushing the boundaries of legal and civil liberties, to see what they can get away with, in a bench marking type exercise, perhaps as a prelude to some further action.... Like perhaps challenging the anti burka laws ( I'm starting at the least violent scenario that springs to mind, with that suggestion)?

 

more drastic  scenarios may include deliberately inciting anti Muslim violence, to portray Muslims in Europe as victims, requiring UN protection... Spit balling with that... But I would prefer to avoid tin foil hat conspiracies 

 

Farcanell, no I do not think " it's something like deliberately pushing the boundaries of legal and civil liberties " -

I do think  it's challenging other people tolerance.  And again I repeat : considering the circumstances in France today.  

Is there a risk of "natural"  division of the beach among groups?

 

 

 

       

 

[GuestHouse]

1 hour ago, Opl said:

GuestHouse , I quote this last part of your post " But of course if its a Muslim woman choosing to wear a Burqini then the defenders of the free world feel they must speak on her behalf and defend her from making her own choices about her own life - just like all the rest of us demand to do.  "

I started my point by " to me" and "today in France" - . and I'm not even trying to speak on behalf of a woman wearing a burkini - I'm telling the impression I have as a person.

That's my feeling - someone else will have another one.    

Many persons, men or women, of different ages - muslim or not - from different part of the world - do not like to expose their body - for different reasons - and manage to do so without wearing a Burkini.

In fact "Burkini" was created recently - Something like 10 years ago - by a muslim woman destinated to muslim women living in muslim countries who otherwise would bath fully dressed   as an improvement in terms of confort -  At that time, I thought it was great for them. I said to myself any woman - chinese - japanese etc.. mostly from asian countries -  who does not want to tan could adopt the burkini as bathing suit.

 

Back to France - 10 years ago, you would hardly find someone bathing in burkini. - Now you'll still find very few,  but in today's context everyone will notice them and  if only worn by muslim women , it turns out to be representative of an attitude  because you can not ignore the context.   

Someone in a previous post talked about " low profile" -  I don't see it as a submission  - it is preservation.     

 

 

The Burqini enables Muslim women to enjoy bathing on a public beach while adhering to beliefs within their faith and culture with respect to modesty. 

 

There is almost no difference at all between a Burqini and a full body sun suit. The objection being made is because of who wears it and the faith of who wears it. 

 

The principal rants against the Burqini in this thread come from the same usual suspects who rant about Muslims and Islam in dozens of other threads here on TVF. 

 

But as you say, the Burqini was invented about ten years ago, hardly surprising then that ten years ago you would hardly find anyone wearing one in France. They become fashionable amongst some of the millions of Muslims living in France and you attribute this to being representative of 'some attitude'. It is you who is claiming the attitude. 

 

As for the idea of remaining 'low profile' we need once again go back to the rants of the Islamophobes here on TVF. You can't on the one hand complain that Muslims do not mix with wider society (a common enough claim amongst Islamophobes) and then blame them when they do join in with wider society at the beach. 

 

But you are right, there is an attitude in France at the moment - and it stinks. 

 

 

[GuestHouse]

2 hours ago, Zendo said:

For GH who ask for it, listen to an intelligent women speaking, if that is what you want,  I think you'll like it :

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFN8ahYN1b0

 

 

First you tell us Muslim women have been brain washed, can't see what's going on because their trapped and denied a voice. 

 

Then you give us a link to one who clearly is able to speak for herself.

 

It seems you lost the thread of your own argument. 

[farcanell]

26 minutes ago, Opl said:

 

Farcanell, no I do not think " it's something like deliberately pushing the boundaries of legal and civil liberties " -

I do think  it's challenging other people tolerance.  And again I repeat : considering the circumstances in France today.  

Is there a risk of "natural"  division of the beach among groups?

 

 

 

       

 

 

Apparently the answer is ... Yes... There is a risk of division... As demonstrated in France, post banning of the swimwear, designed by an Australian, (in 2003) to answer the needs of the many woman, keen to enjoy the sporting lifestyle of Australia ( and many other countries)... This from the designer.

 

she ( the designer) also claims that the idea that the garment ( that she created) symbolizes oppression, is misguided, but rather that it symbolizes freedom, healthy living, confidence and choices that these women can make... Further claiming that not all of her customers are Muslim.

 

when quizzed about the ban, her first reaction was "oh my god, it's just a swim suit, for gods sake".... (Not sure which god she was referencing)

 

Fortunately, France appears unique in its stance against this form of swim wear, and I fail to understand the need for the ban, even given the terrorist situation, as Muslim women, are elsewhere ( such as on the very road, overlooking the beach) easily recognizable by their attire

 

so should it cause division?... Logically... No.

 

but it is what it is... Which is banned in France... Regardless of my opinion.... So... Per an earlier post, if it has become law... It should be followed (I had erroneously thought it an arbitrary municipality ban).

 

that said.... This ban is being widely critised, and I expect that the human rights activists will be very vocal in seeking annulments of these new laws... Perhaps by then, tensions will have eased, and cool heads will prevail... Because frolicking in the ocean is one of life's simple joys (naked frolicking is better... But... You know)

 

personally, I believe halal certification is far more decisive, and a wrought to bring funds into the coffers of Muslim clerics, which should be stamped out.... But that's getting off topic.

[farcanell]

10 minutes ago, GuestHouse said:

 

First you tell us Muslim women have been brain washed, can't see what's going on because their trapped and denied a voice. 

 

Then you give us a link to one who clearly is able to speak for herself.

 

It seems you lost the thread of your own argument. 

 

Forgive him, for he knows not what he says...

 

myriam bourhail.... A Muslim girl, was named as France's top high school student in 2014

[Opl]

The main difference I have with you  GuestHouse  is that in fact I'm on the side of my fellow citizens who feel they are french first - and then muslim ( I could say jews, buddhists etc..) - The majority in fact  - and these persons do not want to be considered as muslims (  ( I could say jews, buddhists etc..) only because it's their privacy.

Usually in France you do not directly ask people where they come from. unless you need to.  

I'm pretty sure these persons are considered as french everywhere they go in the world, in their country of origine included. How many times staying abroad for vacations did you try to guess where the tourists came from - non considering their skin - and before you heard them speak? Did you happen to say " they look french .. american.. german etc.. based on the way there dressed and their attitude.. ?  

      

Now it's different when  you choose to demonstrate first what makes you different - and I repeat,  some - a minority- choose this option and make it quite clear.  

 

My English is too much lacking to be as explicite as I would like...  

Sorry for that.

[SgtRock]

This one will rile up a few demented keyboard bashers.

 

Quote

Nice becomes latest French city to impose burkini ban

 

It seems that the French are no longer mincing their words

 

Quote

Nice has become the latest French resort to ban the burkini, the full-body Islamic swimsuit that has sparked heated debate in secular France.

 

Quote

the city barred clothing that “overtly manifests adherence to a religion at a time when France and places of worship are the target of terrorist attacks”.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/19/nice-becomes-latest-french-city-to-impose-burkini-ban

 

My only issue with this saga is that if France wants to ban this garment, that ban should have came from the Government and been enacted Country wide. Not left up to individual Mayors, which to my mind only causes deeper friction by allowing it in some locations and banning it other locations.

 

Caveat:

 

Do not shoot the messenger.

 

Personally, I could not care less what people wear on a public beach, but I would fully support a law that makes all public beaches, nudist beaches 

[GuestHouse]

6 hours ago, Opl said:

The main difference I have with you  GuestHouse  is that in fact I'm on the side of my fellow citizens who feel they are french first - and then muslim ( I could say jews, buddhists etc..) - The majority in fact  - and these persons do not want to be considered as muslims (  ( I could say jews, buddhists etc..) only because it's their privacy.

Usually in France you do not directly ask people where they come from. unless you need to.  

I'm pretty sure these persons are considered as french everywhere they go in the world, in their country of origine included. How many times staying abroad for vacations did you try to guess where the tourists came from - non considering their skin - and before you heard them speak? Did you happen to say " they look french .. american.. german etc.. based on the way there dressed and their attitude.. ?  

      

Now it's different when  you choose to demonstrate first what makes you different - and I repeat,  some - a minority- choose this option and make it quite clear.  

 

My English is too much lacking to be as explicite as I would like...  

Sorry for that.

 

The main difference I have with you is where you see a Muslim women wearing a Burqini on a French beach as a provocation that exists now but did not exist ten years ago. 

 

I see a Muslim woman wearing a Burqini on a French beach as a woman wanting to join in a very French pastime while observing her own religious and cultural beliefs on the matter of modesty. The only difference over ten years being the invention of the Burqini that enables her to do so. 

 

I say welcome to the beach, come and enjoy one of the joys of the French summer. 

 

You say they are not welcome on the beach because 'you perceive' their clothing a provocation. 

 

I say Muslims joining in and sharing all aspects of society, all public space and all public pastimes is a good thing, you may think differently. 

 

Or perhaps you've not thought that out. 

[ScotBkk]

On 17 August 2016 at 0:58 AM, ClutchClark said:

I have read there have been a few brawls and most recently cars have been torched. It appears the Muslim men get quite aggressive when people take photos of their wives in burkini.

 

 

Burkini vs bikini

 

i know what I prefer 

[SgtRock]

Some people need to lighten up.

 

I suggest that you have a read of this article.

 

Then read the comments section. 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/15/five-reasons-wear-burkini-annoy-french-cannes-mayor-muslim

 

If some of the comments do not make you laugh. I believe that there are legal clinics in Austria / Switzerland that can assist you.

Edited August 20, 2016 by SgtRock

[simple1]

Believe the following sums up the argument by some.

 

Politicians talk constantly about integration and inclusion, and then proceed to kick out to the fringes the very women they claim are oppressed and excluded from society. The doublespeak is getting beyond annoying now.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/15/five-reasons-wear-burkini-annoy-french-cannes-mayor-muslim

[i claudius]

Well if we all demand to be allowed to do as we wish ,then i want to go into immigration wearing my short shorts ,wife beater t shirt with the slogan <deleted>> all immigration officers  and to be allowed to walk down the street naked , well is my right isnt it ? and i hope all the hand wringing left leaning ones on here come to mt defence .

[stander]

We don't need to tip toe around Islam's precious feelings.

[SgtRock]

12 minutes ago, simple1 said:

Believe the following sums up the argument by some.

 

Politicians talk constantly about integration and inclusion, and then proceed to kick out to the fringes the very women they claim are oppressed and excluded from society. The doublespeak is getting beyond annoying now.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/aug/15/five-reasons-wear-burkini-annoy-french-cannes-mayor-muslim

 

 

Such a simplistic argument.

 

Yes, Politicians should and do, talk about integration and inclusion. As it should be, a Governments role is to ensure the harmony and well being of those that they govern.

 

Double speak is a double edged sword.

 

As this topic is about is predominantly about about burkinis and Muslims. Are you now claiming that Muslim women, especially in France are oppressed and excluded from society ?

 

Then to use your words. Kick out the oppressors, that would be Muslim men, who are the ones that are oppressing women. The French Government are not oppressing women by enforcing them to wear clothes and live a life that is contrary to current French customs.

[SaintLouisBlues]

Frankly some of those women are so damn ugly I'd make the burqa compulsory

[GuestHouse]

20 minutes ago, i claudius said:

Well if we all demand to be allowed to do as we wish ,then i want to go into immigration wearing my short shorts ,wife beater t shirt with the slogan <deleted>> all immigration officers  and to be allowed to walk down the street naked , well is my right isnt it ? and i hope all the hand wringing left leaning ones on here come to mt defence .

 

The general rule is, if not specifically banned under the law then it is allowed.

 

As Sgt.Rock notes, the 'ban' has not been enacted in law.

 

As for your preferences for how you dress at immigration, on my one an only visit to the Immigration office at Jomtien I noticed signs that suggest the Immigration Officers would be happy if applicants bothered to bathe before showing up for their visa extensions. They might, it seems, forgive your T-shirt what ever is printed on it, so long as you do not stink.

 

[Opl]

GuestHouse, You've probably thought out how you explain to a young girl - lets say 10 years old  - that she'll have to dress hiding her body when she gets older to enjoy tne beach ?  

You've probably thought out how you explain to a young boy  - lets say 10 years old  - why not all women prefer to cover their body, some wear strings, some go topless etc..

I'm curious to know how you manage to get out of the contradiction  : it's ok for the boy to go around how he likes to, there is no question in fact  - it's different for the girl , maybe she can choose, maybe not.

 

 

[Alive]

Burkinis work well with hairy hairy hairy armpits.

[Zendo]

8 hours ago, farcanell said:

 

Forgive him, for he knows not what he says...

 

myriam bourhail.... A Muslim girl, was named as France's top high school student in 2014

 

You're right, I am a mecrean !

 

I know Myriam from the TV of course and I've been to school with brillant, intelligent arabo-muslims girls and boys, at that time whe never spoke about islam has they didn't give a shit and  they didn't go to the mosquee, there was none ! their parents were so released to be here in France, FREE FOR REAL, and to have kids being raised in Laïc School without religious signs whatsoever... now times have changed and we have much problems in France with some stupids violent idiots, remember that we are in WAR against islam now, that's something to take in account I believe.

 

by the way.. does someone have ever seen a member of Myriam's familly  wearing any islamist attribute ? and covering her face.. is the father wearing a large beard with special white costume ?? NO because they are intelligent and don't do that... maybe in private places, everybody is free to have his own cult and practice it : IN PRIVATE !

 

for GH :

Here is a video about women talking about burkinis but you'll have to understand french to understand them :

http://video.lefigaro.fr/figaro/video/des-femmes-qui-ont-fait-le-choix-du-burkini-temoignent/5086461751001/

 

There is one saying that she don't cover her face.. but will wear a burkini : provocation, or not ? I let you decide.

The youngest one at the end just says, that before she needed to find small beaches without anybody on it to be able to swim ? WHY ? she decided it, because beaches are free for everybody in France, she could have go topless if she wanted, but  now with the burkini, how what a release : she'll be able to go to the main beach in a costume ! looks like a joke for me ! And don't miss the handsome husband at the hand, he's wearing real westerns clothes and his beard makes him an hipster ? right ??!

 

And to tell you again my point, I don't care about burkinis.. I care about citizens, about living together in peace and intelligence, and I feel sad to see all thoses poor victims of islam being enslaved and fighting for their so called "FREEDOM", like i feel sad to see french catholics girls and boys with their costumes imposed by their parents at the 21st century, such a regression !

 

 

[simple1]

2 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

Such a simplistic argument.

 

Yes, Politicians should and do, talk about integration and inclusion. As it should be, a Governments role is to ensure the harmony and well being of those that they govern.

 

Double speak is a double edged sword.

 

As this topic is about is predominantly about about burkinis and Muslims. Are you now claiming that Muslim women, especially in France are oppressed and excluded from society ?

 

Then to use your words. Kick out the oppressors, that would be Muslim men, who are the ones that are oppressing women. The French Government are not oppressing women by enforcing them to wear clothes and live a life that is contrary to current French customs.

No I do not claim that all Muslim women are oppressed in France, but for sure some would have that feeling with bigotry expressed by some. Just as my Thai wife did when exposed to anti Asian bigotry in public places in Australia.  If a person is wearing a bukiini on the beach, personally I do see the justification for a ban by municipal authorities, though from reading some justifications it appears officials are concerned about 'public order', to me this translates to possible confrontations by members of the public solely because they are Muslim or outright official bigotry. Without doubt there are some Muslim men who oppress females, just as their are numerous non Muslim men who do so.

 

In context of the topic my wife refuses to wear revealing beach wear, she wears shorts and T shirt when at the beach / swimming in the ocean; should she be banned as this behaviour is not the cultural norm in Oz?

Edited August 20, 2016 by simple1

[SgtRock]

31 minutes ago, simple1 said:

No I do not claim that all Muslim women are oppressed in France, but for sure some would have that feeling with bigotry expressed by some. Just as my Thai wife did when exposed to anti Asian bigotry in public places in Australia.  If a person is wearing a bukiini on the beach, personally I do see the justification for a ban by municipal authorities, though from reading some justifications it appears officials are concerned about 'public order', to me this translates to possible confrontations by members of the public solely because they are Muslim or outright official bigotry. Without doubt there are some Muslim men who oppress females, just as their are numerous non Muslim men who do so.

 

In context of the topic my wife refuses to wear revealing beach wear, she wears shorts and T shirt when at the beach / swimming in the ocean; should she be banned as this behaviour is not the cultural norm in Oz?

 

As the topic is neither about your Thai wife or Australia, perhaps instead of deflecting you should open another topic that would cover your wife and Australia.

 

Let me remind you of what you posted on 193 and what I responded to.

 

Quote

Politicians talk constantly about integration and inclusion, and then proceed to kick out to the fringes the very women they claim are oppressed and excluded from society. The doublespeak is getting beyond annoying now.

 

The above statement infers that you believe that woman  are being oppressed and excluded from society and are being kicked to the fringes of society.

 

So I will ask you again, in the context of this thread, who is doing the oppressing and exclusion ?

 

Is it the French Government or is it Muslim men and Islam ?

Edited August 20, 2016 by SgtRock

[ilostmypassword]

13 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

As the topic is neither about your Thai wife or Australia, perhaps instead of deflecting you should open another topic that would cover your wife and Australia.

 

Let me remind you of what you posted on 193 and what I responded to.

 

 

The above statement infers that you believe that woman  are being oppressed and excluded from society and are being kicked to the fringes of society.

 

So I will ask you again, in the context of this thread, who is doing the oppressing and exclusion ?

 

Is it the French Government or is Muslim men and Islam ?

Why does it have to be one or the other? It can be both.

[simple1]

7 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

As the topic is neither about your Thai wife or Australia, perhaps instead of deflecting you should open another topic that would cover your wife and Australia.

 

Let me remind you of what you posted on 193 and what I responded to.

 

 

The above statement infers that you believe that woman  are being oppressed and excluded from society and are being kicked to the fringes of society.

 

So I will ask you again, in the context of this thread, who is doing the oppressing and exclusion ?

 

Is it the French Government or is Muslim men and Islam ?

 

No deflection just providing an alternate example & BTW you cannot dictate to me, only Mods.

 

To answer your question I would say from time to time both the French govt and Muslim men. Whatever faith it's just utilised as an excuse by some. I've witnessed plenty of loving & respectful male / female relations in the Muslim community in Thailand

 

 

[nausea]

The truth is a burkini isn't just a burkini, it's a statement of Islamic ideals. A bit like Punk was a statement in it's early days. So yeah, people will get upset.

[farcanell]

I have to correct myself... Oops

 

the French high court is expected to make a ruling on these municipal bans by next Thursday... Otherwise it seems the bans are only valid until 31 August... Another 11 day

 

law proffessor doubt the legality of the bans, debunking secularism as a valid reason

[SgtRock]

8 minutes ago, simple1 said:

 

No deflection just providing an alternate example & BTW you cannot dictate to me, only Mods.

 

To answer your question I would say from time to time both the French govt and Muslim men. Whatever faith it's just utilised as an excuse by some. I've witnessed plenty of loving & respectful male / female relations in the Muslim community in Thailand

 

 

 

Suggesting that you are off topic and advising that you might be better opening a new thread is not dictating. How bizarre that you think otherwise. Not convinced that making references to Thailand is on topic either.

 

Anyway. here is the French PM and his thoughts. Ilostmypassword should also take note.

 

Quote

Manuel Valls says Muslim swimwear is based on the enslavement of women but stops short of suggesting national ban

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/17/french-pm-supports-local-bans-burkinis

 

Does this view suggest that the the French PM,  supports oppression and exclusion from society of Muslim women ?

[farcanell]

2 hours ago, Zendo said:

 

You're right, I am a mecrean !

 

 

 

 

Live now downloaded a French English translator app ?

[simple1]

31 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Suggesting that you are off topic and advising that you might be better opening a new thread is not dictating. How bizarre that you think otherwise. Not convinced that making references to Thailand is on topic either.

 

Anyway. here is the French PM and his thoughts. Ilostmypassword should also take note.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/17/french-pm-supports-local-bans-burkinis

 

Does this view suggest that the the French PM,  supports oppression and exclusion from society of Muslim women ?

 

When a PM states states "Muslim swimwear is based on the enslavement of women" IMO just a politician pandering to anti Muslim sentiment to stay in power with the threat posed by FN.

 

Given the current security situation I do support the banning of Burka's in Govt & public places. However, right now I am of the opinion that France is generally heading downhill in Muslim community relations. As an example some politicians are now wanting to ban non pork meals at school for Muslim & Jewish children which to me creates unnecessary antagonism.

Edited August 20, 2016 by simple1

[thaibeachlovers]

14 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

To me, today in Thailand, a man living in Thailand - maybe born in France, or the UK or the USA - wearing a T-shirt, shorts and flip-flops, going, having a beer when he wants, going to naughty bars if he wants, dating a woman a third his age, if he wants.

 

Is in some way saying - even claiming - "I don't care what you think - how you feel - stop me if you can"

 

It's not related to religion and has little to do with modesty - he just wants to live his life the way he wants to live his life.

 

But of course if its a Muslim woman choosing to wear a Burqini then the defenders of the free world feel they must speak on her behalf and defend her from making her own choices about her own life - just like all the rest of us demand to do.

 

 

Erm. A man in LOS going to have a beer or going to a naughty bar gogo isn't getting in your face when he does it, and what has wearing t shirts, shorts and flip flops got to do with it- that's standard attire where I come from.

You apparently don't understand that a woman in a burkini is actually offensive for many, many people and causes them to get angry. People don't want to go to the beach to enjoy themselves and get angry instead. If a majority of French people don't want it, that's democracy- they should have a referendum on it.

 

Perhaps the answer is for France to provide segregated beaches where those that want to wear burkinis can go and not upset people.

[thaibeachlovers]

49 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Suggesting that you are off topic and advising that you might be better opening a new thread is not dictating. How bizarre that you think otherwise. Not convinced that making references to Thailand is on topic either.

 

Anyway. here is the French PM and his thoughts. Ilostmypassword should also take note.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/17/french-pm-supports-local-bans-burkinis

 

Does this view suggest that the the French PM,  supports oppression and exclusion from society of Muslim women ?

Erm, banning cultural dress is not excluding Muslim women. They are free under Islamic law not to wear it. The ONLY REQUIREMENT is to dress modestly, and that does not require full covering as in a burkini.