Beach bans on the burkini in France sparks widespread debate

[Galactus]

19 hours ago, GuestHouse said:

 

The topic of discussion is banning of Burqini's on French beaches - not Burqas, though you are not the first person to mistake the two.

 

And for the record, I agree entirely with banning the Burqa in public spaces in France, they should do likewise in the UK.

 

But there is no sensible argument for banning the Burqini and every argument put forward in this thread in support of its banning has been demonstrated to be unfounded nonsense.

 

 

burkini, burqa, both religious clothing based on religion.

they need to ban them all. if one is coming to beach fully closed , muslim ladies, christian nuns etc, wonder why they go there?

if you are that muslim or christian, they better stay at home or go to a private swimming pool.

[SgtRock]

2 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Erm, banning cultural dress is not excluding Muslim women. They are free under Islamic law not to wear it. The ONLY REQUIREMENT is to dress modestly, and that does not require full covering as in a burkini.

 

Erm

 

I know.

 

If you had read my previous posts, you would have seen that this is exactly the point I was making.

 

Read, digest, respond 

[thaibeachlovers]

1 minute ago, SgtRock said:

 

Erm

 

I know.

 

If you had read my previous posts, you would have seen that this is exactly the point I was making.

 

Read, digest, respond 

Erm, I wasn't contradicting you, just adding to the conversation.

[SgtRock]

3 minutes ago, thaibeachlovers said:

Erm, I wasn't contradicting you, just adding to the conversation.

 

I do apologise if I misread your post.

 

Where I come from, anything that begins with Erm is usually a sign of sarcasm and contradiction 

[ilostmypassword]

4 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

Suggesting that you are off topic and advising that you might be better opening a new thread is not dictating. How bizarre that you think otherwise. Not convinced that making references to Thailand is on topic either.

 

Anyway. here is the French PM and his thoughts. Ilostmypassword should also take note.

 

 

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/aug/17/french-pm-supports-local-bans-burkinis

 

Does this view suggest that the the French PM,  supports oppression and exclusion from society of Muslim women ?

Oh, an argument from authority, the authority being a french politician. Here's a quote from that article. Of course, the person responsible for it is not a politician so no matter how clearly reasoned it is, it must not count for as much:

"Jean Baubérot, a historian and sociologist of French secularism, told France Interradio the burkini bans seemed “extremely irrational”. He said: “It’s a counter-productive measure to bother these women who have nothing to do with the terrorists and to give the impression of stigmatising a whole group of people who are also under threat from terrorism, because there were women wearing headscarves who were also killed in the attack on Nice.”

"He said Valls was playing with fire by supporting the hard right’s exaggerated interpretation of secularism that pushed French identity in an authoritarian way, rather than viewing it simply as the separation of church and state, and the equality for all beliefs in a neutral state."

[farcanell]

8 hours ago, SaintLouisBlues said:

Frankly some of those women are so damn ugly I'd make the burqa compulsory

 

Muslim women?

french women?

or women in general?

[i claudius]

Its Funny , but when we all lived in our own countrys there were no problems , when we went to other country's and mixed together ,very few problems , now with mass immigration to the west guess who it is always seems to be causing trouble ?  mostly those of a certain faith , funny that .

[7by7]

You need to study some history. The list of religious, political and social persecution of Europeans by Europeans over the last two millennia, not to mention wars, is far to long to post here.

 

Catholics burning Protestants, Protestants burning Catholics for example.

 

 

 

[7by7]

1) Some posters say that if these burkini wearing women are offended by seeing Western women in bikinis then they should not go to the beach instead of trying to enforce their beliefs on others.

 

I cannot find anywhere any Muslim woman, burkini wearer or not, saying that Western in women in France, or any other Western country, should not wear bikinis, nor one saying that they are offended by seeing a woman in a bikini.

 

All they wish is the same freedom enjoyed by their non Muslim sisters; to wear what they wish on the beach.

 

2) Others have said that the modest dress worn by some, but by no means all, Muslim women shows their lack of rights.

 

It is paradoxical that these people claim to be protesting about the lack of rights some Muslim women have, while at the same time want to deny those women the right to dress as they wish.

 

3) Muslim women are not the only women to dress modestly; look at Orthodox and Haredi Jews, Amish, Jehovah's Witnesses etc.

 

Do those who want to ban to the modest dress of some Muslim women because their dress in some way forces their beliefs upon them also want to ban the modest dress of these religions; or any religious attire at all, even; Sikh turbans for example.

 

4) Maybe the French should learn from Jerusalem; Global Plus: Religious attire in the Public Square

Quote

Leila, a 68-year-old Arab woman in a simple black head scarf, enjoys a Saturday afternoon sitting on a park bench along the promenade by the South Jerusalem train tracks.

Passing by is Yael, a young modern Orthodox mother with two children in tow. She has also covered her hair with a light blue kerchief, in accordance with Jewish law for married women.

Elsewhere, Hasidic men in long black coats wearing top hats known as striemels mix on the streets with young Muslim women in hijabs and Catholic and Eastern Orthodox nuns in full habit.

No one draws a second glance in this Holy City for Jews, Christians and Muslims.

 

[Naam]

50 minutes ago, i claudius said:

Its Funny , but when we all lived in our own countrys there were no problems , when we went to other country's and mixed together ,very few problems , now with mass immigration to the west guess who it is always seems to be causing trouble ?  mostly those of a certain faith , funny that .

 

right you are! women of a certain faith in burkinis at the beach today will lead to weapons of mass destruction tomorrow. how dare these females not show the bigger parts of their boobs and butts? 

[thai3]

8 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

 

I cannot find anywhere any Muslim woman, burkini wearer or not, saying that Western in women in France, or any other Western country, should not wear bikinis, nor one saying that they are offended by seeing a woman in a bikini.

 

 

 

well you could not have looked very hard, there are loads of examples, but now you will just claim the attackers were no proved to be Muslims or not real ones 

 

 

[7by7]

Nice try, but:

 

This Muslim Woman Says She Didn’t Attack A Sunbather For Wearing A Bikini

Quote

But on Monday, the police officer who separated the women during the attack was confirmed “not to have heard references to morality or religion”.

Julie Galisson, the police superintendent leading the enquiry, said: “As is clear from the statement of the victim and those implicated, there is no element of a religious or moral element which explains the aggression.”

(7by7emphasis)

"Statement of the victim." Got that? The victim says the attack had nothing to do with religion or morality.

 

From later in that article

Quote

Another woman, Anna (who also asked BuzzFeed News not to use her real name), was present during the attack. The 19-year-old told BuzzFeed News:

I was with three girlfriends and my sister Wednesday around 16:30 when we went to Léo Lagrange Park. We passed three girls in bathing suits and I just told my friend that if it were me, I would not dare wear their outfits … But I said that because I have body issues, and it was absolutely not for religious or moral questions. I am Muslim, yes, but tolerant.

When one of the three girls heard me speak, she told me she understood that I wouldn’t dare wear a bathing suit with my body. She also said that I was fat. I went to her to give her a slap, and then she fought with my friend. From there, I did everything to separate them.

 

Bikini attack in France had nothing to do with religion, police confirm

Quote

However, police have since called the incident a fight between two rival girl gangs and said it had "nothing to do with Islam".

Superintendent Julie Galisson said in a statement: "It was a fight between young girls which degenerated after one of the authors of the aggression said 'Get dressed, it’s not summer'."

Police have said it is clear from all statements given that the attack had nothing to do with religion.

(7by7emphasis)

"All statements given." Got that? All statements, including that of the victim.

 

The case was due to go to court last September; odd that I can find no reports of the court case, what was said by whom nor the verdict anywhere. Presumably because, as in her statement to the police, the victim stated it was nothing to do with religion.

 

Edit:

You say that there are "loads of examples" of women being attacked by Muslims women for wearing bikinis; care to produce another, or is that all you've got?

 

 

Edited August 20, 2016 by 7by7

[7by7]

BTW, don't bother with the 'incident' of a Muslim man threatening bikini wearing women at a swimming pool in Florida; that never happened.

 

As this article and the video footage therein shows, no evidence that the man was Muslim and not even any bikini wearers!

 

[7by7]

Whatever the real motivations behind this ridiculous ban, one thing is sure; it's done wonders for sales!

 

Non-Muslims flock to buy burkinis as French bans raise profile of the modest swimwear style

Quote

But what is particularly interesting about Ahiida, which now finds itself in the crosshairs of controversial French rules banning the garment on the basis of secularism laws, is that 45 per cent of its clients, Zanetti estimates, are non-Muslims..........

She says she receives messages from shoppers of all religions and backgrounds. One, from a non-Muslim in Warwick, Queensland on Friday morning said "It is just a swimsuit for heaven's sake." Another, from a client in the US: "I am a non-Muslim southern Californian woman. I am a skin cancer survivor, which means I can't get out in the sun [in a regular swimsuit]."

Burkini Swimsuits Spark Anti-Muslim Outrage - And Fast sales.

Quote

While the skin quotient of the two swimsuits (bikini and burkini) could not be at further ends of the spectrum, both let women decide just how much skin they want to show at the pool or beach. And the introductions of both suits, although during different centuries, have been met with similarly strong reactions: fury, derision and international bans.

Yet the burkini, like its once-scandalous cousin, is fast gaining traction with a wide cross-section of women—not just Muslims but also women of other religious faiths, as well as those who simply wish to avoid a sunburn or not be ogled by passersby.

 

[Zendo]

blablabla...

 

let's have a sidi brahim with a nice kebab and go to swim naked together ... who's first ? ho maybe religion will prevent you to do that...too bad for those who can't !

 

 

[farcanell]

3 minutes ago, Zendo said:

blablabla...

 

let's have a sidi brahim with a nice kebab and go to swim naked together ... who's first ? ho maybe religion will prevent you to do that...too bad for those who can't !

 

 

 

Oh no.... Now your bringing Hindu's into it . 

[greenchair]

7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Nice try, but:

 

This Muslim Woman Says She Didn’t Attack A Sunbather For Wearing A Bikini

"Statement of the victim." Got that? The victim says the attack had nothing to do with religion or morality.

 

From later in that article

 

Bikini attack in France had nothing to do with religion, police confirm

"All statements given." Got that? All statements, including that of the victim.

 

The case was due to go to court last September; odd that I can find no reports of the court case, what was said by whom nor the verdict anywhere. Presumably because, as in her statement to the police, the victim stated it was nothing to do with religion.

 

Edit:

You say that there are "loads of examples" of women being attacked by Muslims women for wearing bikinis; care to produce another, or is that all you've got?

 

 

Yes yes, it was nothing to do with religion. 

And the burkini with the full head covering is nothing to do with separatist religion(it's a sunscreen )

And the bombs are nothing to do with "moderate "Muslims. 

And wearing the head scarf to university is not a religious separatist tool. 

Pull the other one, it's got bells. 

[JemJem]

I mean, hey, I guess it isn't good or productive to ban the burkini; but what about for example Iran's and Saudi Arabia's requiring all women to be covered EVERYWHERE outdoors ?! Where is the outcry from the West about that ?! What Saudi A. and Iran (and some other Muslim-majority countries) are doing is A LOT worse than what France is doing.

[ilostmypassword]

1 minute ago, JemJem said:

I mean, hey, I guess it isn't good or productive to ban the burkini; but what about for example Iran's and Saudi Arabia's requiring all women to be covered EVERYWHERE outdoors ?! Where is the outcry from the West about that ?! What Saudi A. and Iran (and some other Muslim-majority countries) are doing is A LOT worse than what France is doing.

What do you mean by covered everywhere?  Their entire bodies including the face or when they are out of doors?

Edited August 21, 2016 by ilostmypassword

[Opl]

1 hour ago, JemJem said:

I mean, hey, I guess it isn't good or productive to ban the burkini; but what about for example Iran's and Saudi Arabia's requiring all women to be covered EVERYWHERE outdoors ?! Where is the outcry from the West about that ?! What Saudi A. and Iran (and some other Muslim-majority countries) are doing is A LOT worse than what France is doing.

hijab, niqab, burka or burkini correspond to a vision of society in which  woman is reduced to her gender, subject to man: father, brother or husband -   totally in opposition to France's republican ideal.

polygamie, excision, .. : idem

 

[i claudius]

Wonder what would happen if i wore a bikini and swigged alcohol on a beach in Saudi ? i mean nothing i suppose as they allow things like that ,dont they?(by the way ,i never wear a bikini ---,outdoors)

[farcanell]

Just now, i claudius said:

Wonder what would happen if i wore a bikini and swigged alcohol on a beach in Saudi ? i mean nothing i suppose as they allow things like that ,dont they?(by the way ,i never wear a bikini ---,outdoors)

 

You would make the news.... And we would all laugh our TITs off

[farcanell]

1 hour ago, JemJem said:

I mean, hey, I guess it isn't good or productive to ban the burkini; but what about for example Iran's and Saudi Arabia's requiring all women to be covered EVERYWHERE outdoors ?! Where is the outcry from the West about that ?! What Saudi A. and Iran (and some other Muslim-majority countries) are doing is A LOT worse than what France is doing.

 

Im guessing you skimmed the main story and didn't bother reading too many off the 232 posts on this thread.

 

please don't advocate for a reduction of "western" style liberties, in free and democratic countries, to bring them into line with non democratic countries, which curtail individual rights and civil liberties. 

 

Burkini aside, would you like to see an automatic death sentence for infidelity (whippings for singles engaged in extramarital sex), or hand amputations for theft (albeit serious theft, not petty theft)

 

France, unfortunately, is still reeling from multiple Muslim driven terrorist attacks, and has made some, arguably, irrational and ill advised ( well, that's what the forum is discussing anyway) bans, within its community, as a consequence of these attacks, in an attempt to diffuse or deter further sectarian violence 

 

These bans are being reviewed by the French high court, to see if they are "legal" per it's own constitution and laws. The bans, which most "free" countries are condemning, are only in place till the 31 of August... (High court ruling due this week), which probably deliberately coincides with the end of summer ( which means the bad mayors haven't completely derailed)

 

 

 

 

[thaibeachlovers]

17 hours ago, 7by7 said:

You need to study some history. The list of religious, political and social persecution of Europeans by Europeans over the last two millennia, not to mention wars, is far to long to post here.

 

Catholics burning Protestants, Protestants burning Catholics for example.

 

 

 

It's always about religion.

The answer is to ban religions.

God doesn't give a monkey's if you wear a uniform or not.

[JetsetBkk]

So no more scenes on French beaches, like this one on Phuket...

[JetsetBkk]

Or embarrassing scenes like this one... ("I wasn't looking, honest darling"):

 

[7by7]

11 hours ago, greenchair said:

19 hours ago, 7by7 said:

Nice try, but:

 

This Muslim Woman Says She Didn’t Attack A Sunbather For Wearing A Bikini

"Statement of the victim." Got that? The victim says the attack had nothing to do with religion or morality.

 

From later in that article

 

Bikini attack in France had nothing to do with religion, police confirm

"All statements given." Got that? All statements, including that of the victim.

 

The case was due to go to court last September; odd that I can find no reports of the court case, what was said by whom nor the verdict anywhere. Presumably because, as in her statement to the police, the victim stated it was nothing to do with religion.

 

Edit:

You say that there are "loads of examples" of women being attacked by Muslims women for wearing bikinis; care to produce another, or is that all you've got?

 

 

 

Yes yes, it was nothing to do with religion. 

And the burkini with the full head covering is nothing to do with separatist religion(it's a sunscreen )

And the bombs are nothing to do with "moderate "Muslims. 

And wearing the head scarf to university is not a religious separatist tool. 

Pull the other one, it's got bells. 

 

When everyone involved, including the victim, say that it had noting to do with religion, I believe them.

 

The burkini started out as beachwear for Muslim women who don't want to expose their bodies on the beach; yes. It has been adopted by non Muslims, some because their religious beliefs have similar modesty rules to those of some Muslims, others as an alternative to slathering sunscreen all over themselves.

 

As the terrorists have been condemned worldwide on countless occasions by Muslims of all sects from leaders to ordinary people online and in the streets, then yes; the bombs do have nothing to do with them.

 

It is not just some Muslim women who cover their hair; Orthodox Jewish women cover their hair with a headscarf, Haredi Jewish women once married wear a wig over their real hair; there are other examples of religions which have dress codes as well as well; Sikh men and their turbans for example. Do you consider these to be 'separatist (sic) tools' as well?

Edited August 21, 2016 by 7by7

[Zendo]

20 hours ago, farcanell said:

 

Oh no.... Now your bringing Hindu's into it . 

 

Not at all , in France Döner kebabs are what Greeks call shawarmas.. and it's sold and make by muslims in France, mostly coming from Turckey they sell it in sandwiches with french fries inside or outside !

Big Big buisness, everybody like it even it's fat and not much healthy, much better than the ones available in Thaïland, it 14% of ALL sandwiches sold in France !

 

Did you guys heard about the morroco King discourse recently ? if not just have a look :

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-37148105

 

Quote

The King of Morocco, Mohammed VI, has called on Moroccans living abroad, many of them in Europe, to defend a tolerant form of Islam and reject extremism.

 

Do you think that he's calling for women to wear burkinis on French beaches, who knows ? sometimes opinons differs, understanding too ^^ !!!!

 

 

PS : about the hindus.. I remember being in Karnataka beaches 20 years ago.. Local women went fully dressed into the water, that was funny to see but ho my god : SO SEXY, have you hever seen a women in a wet Sari ?? here you go :

 

 

Here is more for thoses who like it :

http://wonderwoman.intoday.in/photo/15-hotties-in-sexy-wet-sari/1/758.html

 

Edited August 21, 2016 by Zendo

[JemJem]

No, Farcanell, I didn't advocate for a reduction of Western style liberties of course. If you read my post again, I actually criticised countries like Saudi A and Iran, for making all women cover themselves outdoors in all places. And, also you distorted my post, by switching to writing about sharia stuff.

I am actually not a fan of any religion, especially Islam; and I wish no women wore burqinis to beaches, but sadly, life is not like that. I had just meant that it is no harm if some would wear that to beaches if they wanted to.

I also for example wouldn't mind people going barefoot to places like shopping malls and cafes; to give you another example.

Now, understood ? :)

[Zendo]

Smoking is almo becoming more and more illegal in French beaches, religious segregation ? maybe !?

 

 

sorry i didn't got any english report about it.. here is the link for french one :

https://fr.sports.yahoo.com/video/les-interdictions-fumer-à-la-114500195.html

 

So the freedom of smokers (who is an legal act) in France are restricted... They need to go for the euro court or international court to make it STOP !! lol

 

Or go to another beach where you still can do it.. if you can't stop smoking everywhere !!!