Learning Thai: What´s the point ...?

[DUS]

Hi,

 

I´ve got a question for all of you who have overcome all the real as well as emotional hurdles when you started to learn Thai. 

 

I´ve moved to Thailand 2 months ago and within the first week I started attending a Thai language school. It´s 5 days a week and 3 hrs per day. I´ve learned numerous languages over the years and think I know me quite well as far as my linguistic skills and deficits are concerned. But learning my first Asian and tonal language currently causes me some major frustrations. For example: I went to a 7/11 yesterday to topup my AIS account. With no other customer in the shop I thought I might try asking for a topup using the exact Thai phrase that we learnt a few weeks ago. So I started off saying it once, twice, three times and so forth but only got the (partially expected) blank "Arai ná" look. So I ended up saying it in English and they were more than happy to top the account.

 

Now, I understand that I´ve only been studying for 7 weeks which is nothing if you understand learning any language to be a marathon and not a sprint. BUT, and this is my "What´s the point...?" question: If I am obviously unable to reproduce the correct sounds so that a Thai person can understand/interpret it correctly (and that with a sentence that is pretty much straightforward and not too difficult) then should I just be honest to myself and say that I obviously haven´t got what it takes to speak Thai in a way that locals understand? At least that way I would not continue to waste time and money for trying to learn something I will never be able to apply outside the artificial school room scenario. 

 

Or am I just too impatient? 

 

DUS

Edited August 22, 2016 by DUS

[manfredtillmann]

this is my take on it - and YES - i'll expect flaming to the max.

an american teacher, teaching science or something in thailand, once, some 4 years ago,  said to me: learning thai is just giving an excuse to thais for not learning english. i took that with a grain of salt.

 

since than i learned the words for numbers and food, but that's about it.

i do not need to know all the gossip my wife and her friends chatter about, even though i now start to understand it, i don't need to be able to read the gory newspapers, i do not need to understand the 'lyrics' of the tv news that show just another car accident or elephant death.

 

when we have be big family gatherings i am VERY happy to not understand. what is there to learn, gain, achieve?

thai people - and i am talking about MY thai people (ease off, everyone, no, not all thais are the same) - are so incredibly un - educated and non - knowledgeable that listening to their conversations will achieve nothing but dumbing you down.

 

[DUS]

Thanks for the feedback! I understand the points you are making even though I don´t share your opinion on most of them. But that aside, it wasn´t really an answer to my specific question, or was it? More of a general answer to the more general "headline question" of "what´s the point..."

 

 

[tifino]

 

being Tonal is the crunch of it Yes!!

 

if I were to write the following:

 

Mall

Castle

   ...amongst a myriad of other words that are pronounved differently, (depending from what Country etc you come from)

 

But. really, no matter where you come from,

you the English speaker,

have the lateral thinking ability,

to determine the intended context of what you have just heard.

 

 

The Thai is gigyat to go to the effort of wanting to try to understand you - because you are not Thai.

 

For; every little thing spoken in Thai is done Tonal, and there may be 7 different interpretations of the words you have just uttered.

 

 

Thai don't want to be seen accepting you have their language

- much the same as Japanese laugh in your face if you try to speak Japanese

 

 

[Scotwight]

The average Thai speaks 3 or more languages some tonal and some not.  If you are learning how to read and write Thai at the same time you are learning to speak Thai the advantages are obvious.  If you have a hooker girlfriend she will not want you to learn Thai.  Your Thai banker and lawyer will not want you to learn Thai.  A Thai real estate salesman will not want you to learn Thai.  The Thai car salesman will not want you to learn Thai.  Your landlord will not want you to learn Thai.  The corrupt policeman on the corner will not want you to learn Thai.  The average drunk almost illiterate expat will not want you to learn Thai (because he didn't).

 

Very few smart Farang living in Thailand don't speak Thai.  There are a couple of exceptions but not many.  

 

Think of it this way.  How would you like to poke your eyes out and stick firecrackers in your ears and explode them and cut out your tongue.  Same same not speaking Thai and living in Thailand.  Good luck - the tones come after a few months.  

[returnofthailand]

if you learn thai immigration will think you are here to work.
as a tourist, better stay away from the thai language

[jspill]

3 minutes ago, returnofthailand said:

if you learn thai immigration will think you are here to work.
as a tourist, better stay away from the thai language

 

So just don't talk to immigration in Thai? Better yet use agents and don't even go there. 

[jspill]

" I thought I might try asking for a topup using the exact Thai phrase that we learnt a few weeks ago. So I started off saying it once, twice, three times and so forth but only got the (partially expected) blank "Arai ná" look. So I ended up saying it in English and they were more than happy to top the account. "

 

They do actually just use the English word top up. 

 

Or just ask for 'Truemove online' followed by the amount you want in baht. 'Online' for entering your phone keypad, 'slip' for the piece of paper. The money amount is the only Thai word you need there. Lots of adopted English words in Thai, taxi, beer, sex, free, computer, disco, pub, etc. 

 

New learners tend to overcomplicate things, e.g. add in 'I' at the start of sentence, you don't need that. I'm guessing you tried a long phrase starting with pom yahk ja derm ngern tor ra sap 'i want to fill money phone' and it sounded a bit off, but really all you needed to say was 'DTAC online roy baht'. Aim to make things as short and simple as possible, drop the 'r' in 'krap' to make 'kap' and so on, unless it's a super formal situation. In everday situations Thais get straight to the point. 

 

Edited August 22, 2016 by jspill

[BaldPlumber]

If you learn to read and write thai at the same time as learning to speak thai it might be easier for you since you will learn, in theory, the correct tone and vowel length.

Easier said than done though.

Since starting to learn to read thai, I've realised that I was mangling many, many words that I thought I was spot on at pronouncing

Four stages of learning:-

1. Unconsciously incompetent. You literally don't know enough to know how little you know. Characterised by those who blithely say I know more than I let on or something equally ludicrous.

2. Consciously incompetent. The stage you're at now, as am I.

3. Unconsciously competent. Being able to do it but still believing you're crap. Note that asking a girl in a bar whether she wants a drink does not count.

4. Consciously competent. A state of nirvana they very few achieve lol.

[Scotwight]

46 minutes ago, returnofthailand said:

if you learn thai immigration will think you are here to work.
as a tourist, better stay away from the thai language

I've been getting retirement extensions for 10 years - the immigration guy told me if I didn't speak Thai he'd think I was retarded (bun ya on).

Edited August 22, 2016 by Scotwight

[returnofthailand]

better be retarded than being in jail or deported.

[Horatio Poke]

I think that you've rather answered your own question in that if you can't see the point of learning Thai then for you it is a pointless endeavour.

 

Re your question,

"If I am obviously unable to reproduce the correct sounds so that a Thai person can understand/interpret it correctly... ...then should I just be honest to myself and say that I obviously haven´t got what it takes to speak Thai in a way that locals understand?"

If that's the case then Yes.

[Ixchunchan]

Quote

If I am obviously unable to reproduce the correct sounds so that a Thai person can understand/interpret it correctly (and that with a sentence that is pretty much straightforward and not too difficult) then should I just be honest to myself and say that I obviously haven´t got what it takes to speak Thai in a way that locals understand

 

After 7 weeks? And talking to a cashier in 7/11 who, quite reasonably, has exactly zero interest in helping out some annoying foreigner? What the hell do you expect? Of course you're not going to be any good and of course most bored underpaid uninterested shop staff aren't going to help you out. But to conclude from that that you're never going to be able to speak Thai is ridiculous.

 

For most foreigners, blundering through ordering the burger set in KFC or giving impenetrable directions to a taxi driver are all they are ever likely to really need but living in a country and being entirely disconnected from it is a very, very sad kind of life. So just plug on. You'll get there in the end. Just expect to have to deal with a lot of bored, unimpressed 7/11 cashiers on the way.

Edited August 22, 2016 by Ixchunchan

[Ixchunchan]

3 hours ago, returnofthailand said:

if you learn thai immigration will think you are here to work.


 

 

 

Total rubbish. As somebody else said, if you live here for any length of time and don't learn the language then officialdom is, if anything, going to be less likely to help you. Just like in any other country.

[Scotwight]

3 hours ago, returnofthailand said:

better be retarded than being in jail or deported.

I have never gotten anything but respect from immigration for speaking Thai.  The only problem I ever had was when I brought a Thai GF with me and they tried to shake me down because they thought I was a newby.  I never took another Thai women to immigration with me and have had no trouble since.  

[thai3]

Started to learn in 1994, had a wife for years who was a teacher of Thai, still can't speak it hardly at all, tones are the problem just can't identify them at all when people are talking. As they never understand gave up years ago, not worth the frustration. I don't think I miss out on much and I certainly do not want to make immigrations job any easier by talking in Thai to them, I must be retarded then 

[BaldPlumber]

I remember some blowhard on here a while ago, boasting that with his less than 100 word vocabulary he could instruct non English speaking Thais in exactly how he wanted his house built.

I wonder how that worked out for him.

Oddly, he was angrily demanding if I knew the thai word for wheel. I could never work out whether he thought that was a particularity esoteric word or whether it was vital for the building of his (imaginary) house.

Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

[samsensam]

5 hours ago, Scotwight said:

I have never gotten anything but respect from immigration for speaking Thai.  The only problem I ever had was when I brought a Thai GF with me and they tried to shake me down because they thought I was a newby.  I never took another Thai women to immigration with me and have had no trouble since.  

 

couldn't they see from the stamps in your passport that you weren't a newbie?

[Lampang2]

I think you are wrong.

They are happy to understand you.

But if you are off pitch they are just plainly uncabable of post proccesing what you just said and try to understand .

No such capability.
Overload.

[Lampang2]

Reading Thai is crucial.

Very very often I think I can hear how to pronounce a word by just listening to it.

But when I read it I see things I did not hear. And listening once again after reading the word I hear the details I initially missed.

[zombie nights]

OP: you raise an interesting question.  However, not sure this sub forum is where to raise it as most here have decided to learn Thai so will obviously suggest u do pursue with the language.

If you can learn the Thai language to be able to communicate  in real life good enough to converse with the Thais at most levels then good for you and irt will of been worthwhile your learning efforts.

I have been trying to learn Thai for several years: school, private tutor, on line, self study etc.

Often devoted many hours every week.

But then i am still in the situation that most of the time still I am clueless as to what the Thais are saying, though sometimes they are speaking in Isaan dialect et al.

So i need to ask myself do i want to waste any more of my time trying to learn it; for important matters I have enough trustworthy Thai people who can speak/ negotiate on my behalf.

 

[futsukayoi]

14 hours ago, returnofthailand said:

if you learn thai immigration will think you are here to work.
as a tourist, better stay away from the thai language


 

 

 

Or maybe they will think you are actually learning Thai rather than working illegally on your student visa.

[DUS]

31 minutes ago, zombie nights said:

OP: you raise an interesting question.  However, not sure this sub forum is where to raise it as most here have decided to learn Thai so will obviously suggest u do pursue with the language.

 

Well, I would have thought so originally but given 99.9% of the feedback so far it is either completely the opposite or has nothing to do with my original question. :-)))

 

 

[futsukayoi]

If you plan to be in the country any length of time you should learn Thai.  I am very critical of foreigners in my home country who make no effort to assimilate.  In the same way if you only want to have Farang friends and deal only with hookers or Thais in service industries you can get by with English but don't be surprised if you are viewed as a foreign barbarian or a walking ATM.

[innocenthai]

The best reason to learn Thai is to know exactly why you hate it.

 

Don't believe the BS of people telling you that it's useful to learn Thai, it's useless if you have money.

 

Be careful, you might know soon how uninteresting and boring are these people who have nothing to talk about except what they just ate and what they will eat...

 

 

[tgeezer]

I have been coming to Thailand for over thirty years and am still very lazy about tones vowel length etc. basically all the non English aspects of Thai. In conversation it is accepted but when I am asking questions saying things like บังครั้ง instead of บางครั้ง, หรือใหม่ I frustrate people. I get corrected and am on my best behaviour for a while but I lapse again, it's frustrating for me too then.
The original topic, เติมเงินเบอร์... needs to be rehearsed, then you need to be ready to replace เบอ with หมายเลกโทรศัพท์ if the first attempt didn't work, it gives them a second chance.

[Tim207]

On 8/22/2016 at 4:10 AM, Scotwight said:

The average Thai speaks 3 or more languages some tonal and some not.  If you are learning how to read and write Thai at the same time you are learning to speak Thai the advantages are obvious.  If you have a hooker girlfriend she will not want you to learn Thai.  Your Thai banker and lawyer will not want you to learn Thai.  A Thai real estate salesman will not want you to learn Thai.  The Thai car salesman will not want you to learn Thai.  Your landlord will not want you to learn Thai.  The corrupt policeman on the corner will not want you to learn Thai.  The average drunk almost illiterate expat will not want you to learn Thai (because he didn't).

 

Very few smart Farang living in Thailand don't speak Thai.  There are a couple of exceptions but not many.  

 

Think of it this way.  How would you like to poke your eyes out and stick firecrackers in your ears and explode them and cut out your tongue.  Same same not speaking Thai and living in Thailand.  Good luck - the tones come after a few months.  

 

You had me until your last paragraph. Anytime I hear someone say same same I want to slap them.

[Tim207]

On 8/22/2016 at 5:14 AM, returnofthailand said:

if you learn thai immigration will think you are here to work.
as a tourist, better stay away from the thai language


 

 

 

That is just dumb. I once got stuck between Thailand and Cambodia when Cambodian immigration denied me entry. Thai immigration wouuldn't allow me back in without entering Cambodia first. Luckily I was able to explain the problem to the immigration clerk, who had me explain to the supervisor who had me talk to the head guy at that border post.  Everyone involved was nothing but nice as soon as they realized we could communicate directly, although they all had scowls on their faces before they found I could speak to them in Thai. The head guy went way out of his way to help me. He even went so far as to call my local immigration office and wrote a note for me to give them so I would not have any trouble. I am sure things would not have gone so well had I not been able to explain why I could not enter Cambodia.

[bifftastic]

On 22/08/2016 at 9:12 AM, DUS said:

I thought I might try asking for a topup using the exact Thai phrase that we learnt a few weeks ago.

So, might I ask what that phrase was? You can ask for phone top up quite easily just by using the word ขอ (kor, with a rising tone) ขอ 1-2 call ฿100 (neung loi/roi baht) for example.
Also, you say that after 7 or so weeks you are unable to produce the sounds needed to speak Thai clearly and be understood. Now, rather than assuming that that means there's no point in trying any more, you might question your learning methods and the teaching you're receiving. 

You also ask if you're being impatient. I would say that you are.  7 weeks isn't very long at all. 
There is most definitely a set of sounds that you need to master in order for your Thai to be clear and easily understood by native speakers. Vowel length is also often not emphasised enough too. The differences between ต and ด... ป and บ are important. Then there are the vowels, many of which do not exist in English and need to be drilled repeatedly so that they stick in your memory. Your mouth will need to get used to how these pronunciations are formed so that the muscle memory gets trained correctly. For that to happen in 7 weeks, with the right teaching methods, would be an achievement. With teaching that does not focus on these things, it would be next to impossible. 

[CaptHaddock]

I´ve moved to Thailand 2 months ago and within the first week I started attending a Thai language school. It´s 5 days a week and 3 hrs per day. I´ve learned numerous languages over the years and think I know me quite well as far as my linguistic skills and deficits are concerned. But learning my first Asian and tonal language currently causes me some major frustrations. For example: I went to a 7/11 yesterday to topup my AIS account. With no other customer in the shop I thought I might try asking for a topup using the exact Thai phrase that we learnt a few weeks ago. So I started off saying it once, twice, three times and so forth but only got the (partially expected) blank "Arai ná" look. So I ended up saying it in English and they were more than happy to top the account.

 

To the OP:

 

You have vastly underestimated the difficulty in learning Thai, the tones in particular.  So, now you can either buckle down and decide to work as long and hard as necessary to master the tones before progressing to all the other intractabilities of the language, or you can join the ignorance-is-bliss crew extolling the many advantages of failure. 

 

You certainly don't have to learn Thai, nor, for that matter,  do you have to learn anything else in particular in your life.  If you haven't already discovered by this late date that knowing more is better than knowing less, it is unlikely anyone here will convince you.  What I can tell you from experience is that language study is a particularly fair enterprise.  The more you put in; the more you will get out.  The aspects that are the most difficult at first, such as producing and distinguishing the tones, later on become the most satisfying when you begin to master them.  The Thai language in my opinion is quite delightful, in fact, the best feature of Thailand and that's especially true just because it's so far from English, which is what makes it difficult for us.