CDC agrees only House members are entitled to nominate prime minister

[sjaak327]

24 minutes ago, halloween said:

The opponents of an appointed senate have yet to answer how an elected senate is any better at protecting the nation from a predatory government than an appointed, simply claiming it is more democratic. The elected senates in the US and Oz are far from democratic (named "unrepresentative swill" by an Oz PM) with small states having far fewer voters per member compared to larger (e.g. RI/CA or Tas/NSW)

Elected senates can also lead to balance of power situations which occur regularly in Oz, where a senator (usually TAS) is given huge influence over government policy. For years, AusAid could not include birth control, even during the AIDS crisis, because of the religious views of a single senator. 

 

The Thai senate isn't just there for checks and balances, they have real political power. There is no reason why the senators could not be voted in by the electorate, nor is there no reason why this can't be done in proportion.

 

The reason why the senate is going to be enlaged by 100 members is to counter balance the democratically elected lower house. The senate in Thailand is the vehicle of power for the elite and military. Only the real gullible haven't gotten that message yet.

 

The Thai electorate have been sidestepped in the recent referendum that is an undiniable fact.

Edited August 25, 2016 by sjaak327

[halloween]

4 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

 

The Thai senate isn't just there for checks and balances, they have real political power. There is no reason why the senators could not be voted in by the electorate, nor is there no reason why this can be done in proportion.

 

The reason why the senate is going to be enlaged by 100 members is to counter balance the democratically elected lower house. The senate in Thailand is the vehicle of power for the elite and military. Only the real gullible haven't gotten that message yet.

" There is no reason why the senators could not be voted in by the electorate, nor is there no reason why this can be done in proportion. "

Google "rubber stamp".

[halloween]

7 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

 

A long essay trying to make justification of appointed senators when history of similar systems failed to improve anything and civil disorders and coups still persist. The establishment keep going back to their old bag of tricks with the fully appointed senators  like in 1947, 1968, 1974 and 1978. What makes you think it will work this time?

Perhaps if they started jailing senators and MPs willing to accept bribes? But no, being paid to be a member of a political party and vote to orders is perfectly acceptable, to PTP at least.

[sjaak327]

18 minutes ago, halloween said:

In other words, I should reject change because of how it is achieved, regardless of how beneficial it may be? Perhaps you think the previous democracy was good enough.

I don't claim you should reject anything. Just pointing out that the referendum wasn't a case of democracy in action.

 

I am willing to be educated by you, so please point out how this change is beneficial to Thailand and the Thai people. The goal of this change is to benefit a tiny portion of the Thai people, just as was the case a few decades ago.

 

The draft charter will lead to a democracy tightly controlled by elements that never received an electoral mandate to do so. So in other words, it will not lead to a democracy.

 

The people that opposed the Shinawatras don't seem to understand that all it takes for them to disappear is for people to not vote for them. Those pesky 250 appointed senators controlling the lower house cannot be voted out, just like the Junta cannot currently.

Edited August 25, 2016 by sjaak327

[heybruce]

31 minutes ago, halloween said:

Apologies, I meant to type virulently. Yes, I accept the referendum with suppression of the Shinawatra propaganda machine and people being urged to make up their own mind. the choice was there, PTP and its leaders urged No, and didn't get it.

 

I don't support military rule, I support REAL democracy. I tolerate military rule while necessary changes are made, because despite the BS claims of evolution, it won't happen any other way.

How is military rule, put in place and maintained with force and the threat of violence any different to a political party maintaining their own private militia to suppress opposition. Like it not, there is LESS violence now.

So you are fine with a referendum with propaganda and censorship.  You also deny that there was no real choice, that the military would stay in power and impose the constitution of its choice regardless of the outcome.  I assume you would also accept a referendum in which the choices were: 

 

A.  The 2014 junta is overturned and the PTP government re-instated

B.  The 2006 junta is overturned and the TRT government is re-instated.

 

" I don't support military rule, I support REAL democracy."

 

Yet you defend military rule at every opportunity.  "REAL democracy" isn't born overnight, and it certainly isn't the product of military rule.  It has never resulted from many past periods of military rule in Thailand, and it clearly won't come from this period of military rule. 

 

Evolution of democracy isn't BS, all democracies evolve, assuming they're allowed to stay in place for more than one election cycle.  Expecting the military to bring about democracy is BS.

 

" How is military rule, put in place and maintained with force and the threat of violence any different to a political party maintaining their own private militia to suppress opposition."

 

Obviously military rule isn't elected.  Also, the only private militia's that were used to oppress elected governments were those under Suthep and other anti-democratic forces.  Yes, there is less violence now.  Totalitarian governments are good at suppressing violence, but they do so by suppressing human rights.

[sjaak327]

10 minutes ago, halloween said:

" There is no reason why the senators could not be voted in by the electorate, nor is there no reason why this can be done in proportion. "

Google "rubber stamp".

LOL !

 

Rubber stamp, you mean something like the NLA or the CDC ?

 

How would an elected senate be a rubber stamp ? There are plenty of countries where the composition of the senate is a direct result of elections, ie. the will of the people. And in those countries, those elections usually are in the mid term of the sitting government, that is of course done for a reason, rubber stamp ain't the one....

[elgordo38]

7 hours ago, smedly said:

wow try breaking that one down to make any sense, read it 3 times and still couldn't

Rest assured smedly they will know how to interpret it at the opportune moment. Let me guess that their interpretation will not be in the peoples favor. 

[sjaak327]

3 minutes ago, elgordo38 said:

Rest assured smedly they will know how to interpret it at the opportune moment. Let me guess that their interpretation will not be in the peoples favor. 

Excatly, in fact, I am pretty certain the CDC will get a notice from the NCPO pretty soon about this issue, they will be told what to write.

 

"Mr Surachai said the whips of the “three rivers” agreed in unison that the appointed senators are entitled to pick an outsider for the premiership post if the House members cannot settle among themselves who will be their prime minister among their lists of candidates. "

 

No more explanation needed, they will be overruled on this issue.

Edited August 25, 2016 by sjaak327

[sujoop]

58 minutes ago, sujoop said:

2 hours ago, smutcakes said:

 

It especially wont work when some of the parties  make it intentionally unworkable. I still cant get my head around why in this day of age you are going to have a number of 'appointed' persons be instrumental in appointing who will lead the country.  Its like going back 100 years!

 

As a matter of aside, why would you suppose that any of the appointed senators would be morally and ethically better than politicians? 

The senate was designed to provide checks & balances to the governing party controlled house. However, during the years when Thaksin was prime minister, the senate became stacked with spouses and relatives from his political party and affiliated /purchased party MPs. This packing of the senate with the spouses of MPs from the ruling party meant that Thaksin’s political machine could override the intent of the constitution for a senate that could check the expected overreach of the elected.
   

Thus in the 2007 constitution following Thaksin's exile, the chamber was changed to a minority appointed Senate whereby 76 Senators were directly elected from the 76 Provinces and Bangkok, while the other 74 were appointed from various sectors by the Senate Selection Committee. In 2013 the upper house passed a bill for amnesty in the middle of the night (primarily designed to free Thaksin from charges and allow him to return). The Senate  which would likely have narrowly passed the bill ultimately rejected it following massive protests.
   

Also in 2013 the Thaksin-backed Govt tried to amend the constitution to return to of a fully elected Senate which again allowed husbands, wives and  relatives of ruling House MP's to become Senators (again effectively removing all impartiality, thus removing the very checks & balances to the governing party controlled house - the very purpose the Senate was meant for).  Further, the Thaksin-backed Puea Thai Govt proposed a bill which would remove the rights of citizens to petition the constitution court and instead all charges against the Govt would have to be lodged firstly to the Govt appointed Attorney General, who would then deem if a charge 'merited' being sent on to the court.
 

Thaksin also had relatives appointed to head / control both the Military and Police, plus appointed 'trusted' allies in key positions such as CHALERM as JUSTICE Minister... (however these appointments are within the purview of the ruling party, no matter how obviously controlling or repugnant).
   

Thus, this is just a small example of how various Thaksin controlled Govt's have systematically abused, diverted, subverted and corrupted not only the checks and balances of government but the very intent of democracy. This brings us to the current very sad state of affairs (brought upon by Mr Thaksin himself one might argue). As a result, the Senate will now be appointed for a period of 5 years preventing any further ram-rodding through self-serving bills in the wee hours. Meanwhile, the house majority can still choose it's PM and pass bills (whilst being baby-sat which unfortunately has been proven highly necessary).

 

Forgot to add, also in 2013 Thaksin's govt passed the largest borrowing bill in the history of Thailand (also in the wee hours, of course) and to TOP that, added a clause which stated NO parliamentary oversight on how the record loan was spent by it's MP's...
 

So let's mini-review the Thaksin proxy/dynasty 'democracy' some aspire to here:
 

-Buy up smaller parties and sweep into power
-Load up the Senate with spouses of your own house members effectively destroying checks/balances
-Get Sis's Govt to ram through amnesty bill for SELF
-Appoint relatives to head both Military & Police (autocratic much?)
-Appoint 'trusted' allies in key positions such as CHALERM for JUSTICE (!?)
-Proposed bill that citizens lodge complaints to HIS Attorney General, not the courts
-Ram through largest debt borrowing with clause stating NO oversight on spending it...

AND STILL SOME DRONE ON CALLING THIS SHAM 'DEMOCRACY'....
If this occurred in your own countries you lot would be screaming!
 

Well Gents, your woefully low standards for democracy defacto abets the democracy-destroying actions of the autocrat Thaksin, bringing us to the current sorry state where it's now 'necessarily' a baby-sat senate for the next 5 years like it or not.

 

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

LOL !

 

Rubber stamp, you mean something like the NLA or the CDC ?

 

How would an elected senate be a rubber stamp ? There are plenty of countries where the composition of the senate is a direct result of elections, ie. the will of the people. And in those countries, those elections usually are in the mid term of the sitting government, that is of course done for a reason, rubber stamp ain't the one....

Actually, we have half senate election of politically aligned senators. The result is usually ugly, with balance of power being given to strange little parties from the smallest state. Refer earlier post.

[sjaak327]

1 minute ago, halloween said:

Actually, we have half senate election of politically aligned senators. The result is usually ugly, with balance of power being given to strange little parties from the smallest state. Refer earlier post.

Actually that is all part of the game, but I assume that in your country the senate does not have far reaching powers like the Thai Senate will enjoy.

 

 

[sjaak327]

4 minutes ago, sujoop said:

 

Forgot to add, also in 2013 Thaksin's govt passed the largest borrowing bill in the history of Thailand (also in the wee hours, of course) and to TOP that, added a clause which stated NO parliamentary oversight on how the record loan was spent by it's MP's...
 

So let's mini-review the Thaksin proxy/dynasty 'democracy' some aspire to here:
 

-Buy up smaller parties and sweep into power
-Load up the Senate with spouses of your own house members effectively destroying checks/balances
-Get Sis's Govt to ram through amnesty bill for SELF
-Appoint relatives to head both Military & Police (autocratic much?)
-Appoint 'trusted' allies in key positions such as CHALERM for JUSTICE (!?)
-Proposed bill that citizens lodge complaints to HIS Attorney General, not the courts
-Ram through largest debt borrowing with clause stating NO oversight on spending it...

AND STILL SOME DRONE ON CALLING THIS SHAM 'DEMOCRACY'....
If this occurred in your own countries you lot would be screaming!
 

Well Gents, your woefully low standards for democracy defacto abets the democracy-destroying actions of the autocrat Thaksin, bringing us to the current sorry state where it's now 'necessarily' a baby-sat senate for the next 5 years like it or not.

 

Hmm, not sure how Thaksin could load up the senate with his own candidates, pretty certain the electorate did this, not Thaksin.

 

When the nepotism is concerned, we can see blatant examples of that in the current administration, with the only difference being, that they never received a mandate at all.

 

You accuse Thaksin of the very things this administration is doing, with the difference that now there is zero accountability, when Thaksin was at the helm there certain was accountability.

[halloween]

6 minutes ago, heybruce said:

So you are fine with a referendum with propaganda and censorship.  You also deny that there was no real choice, that the military would stay in power and impose the constitution of its choice regardless of the outcome.  I assume you would also accept a referendum in which the choices were: 

 

A.  The 2014 junta is overturned and the PTP government re-instated

B.  The 2006 junta is overturned and the TRT government is re-instated.

 

" I don't support military rule, I support REAL democracy."

 

Yet you defend military rule at every opportunity.  "REAL democracy" isn't born overnight, and it certainly isn't the product of military rule.  It has never resulted from many past periods of military rule in Thailand, and it clearly won't come from this period of military rule. 

 

Evolution of democracy isn't BS, all democracies evolve, assuming they're allowed to stay in place for more than one election cycle.  Expecting the military to bring about democracy is BS.

 

" How is military rule, put in place and maintained with force and the threat of violence any different to a political party maintaining their own private militia to suppress opposition."

 

Obviously military rule isn't elected.  Also, the only private militia's that were used to oppress elected governments were those under Suthep and other anti-democratic forces.  Yes, there is less violence now.  Totalitarian governments are good at suppressing violence, but they do so by suppressing human rights.

I have no intention of discussing your suppositions or endlessly repeating my stance. Your opinions of democratic evolution are your own - I don't believe the tiger will change its stripes, not willingly at least.

Your denial of PTP's armed wing is ridiculous; next you will be telling me that the UDD is an independent political movement.

BTW Do you know how tiresome the constant BS about human rights are, the claims of how great your democracy is, when 40% of your country's eligible citizens can't even be bothered to vote.

[heybruce]

9 minutes ago, sujoop said:

 

Forgot to add, also in 2013 Thaksin's govt passed the largest borrowing bill in the history of Thailand (also in the wee hours, of course) and to TOP that, added a clause which stated NO parliamentary oversight on how the record loan was spent by it's MP's...
 

So let's mini-review the Thaksin proxy/dynasty 'democracy' some aspire to here:
 

-Buy up smaller parties and sweep into power
-Load up the Senate with spouses of your own house members effectively destroying checks/balances
-Get Sis's Govt to ram through amnesty bill for SELF
-Appoint relatives to head both Military & Police (autocratic much?)
-Appoint 'trusted' allies in key positions such as CHALERM for JUSTICE (!?)
-Proposed bill that citizens lodge complaints to HIS Attorney General, not the courts
-Ram through largest debt borrowing with clause stating NO oversight on spending it...

AND STILL SOME DRONE ON CALLING THIS SHAM 'DEMOCRACY'....
If this occurred in your own countries you lot would be screaming!
 

Well Gents, your woefully low standards for democracy defacto abets the democracy-destroying actions of the autocrat Thaksin, bringing us to the current sorry state where it's now 'necessarily' a baby-sat senate for the next 5 years like it or not.

 

They also attempted to hold national elections, twice, in 2014 when the PTP was at a low point in popularity.  They tried to give the Thai people a chance to choose new leaders.  However the Thai people were denied any choice and instead had a military government imposed on them. 

 

How is oversight, transparency, and checks and balances working with the military government?

[sjaak327]

9 minutes ago, halloween said:

I have no intention of discussing your suppositions or endlessly repeating my stance. Your opinions of democratic evolution are your own - I don't believe the tiger will change its stripes, not willingly at least.

Your denial of PTP's armed wing is ridiculous; next you will be telling me that the UDD is an independent political movement.

BTW Do you know how tiresome the constant BS about human rights are, the claims of how great your democracy is, when 40% of your country's eligible citizens can't even be bothered to vote.

The complaints about human rights abuses aren't bullshit, people's rights are constantly being surpressed. The referendum law itself being a classic example, those attitude adjustment sessions are not a figment of the imagination.

 

As to your ludicrous claim that 40% of the voters didn't even show up, the 2011 election had a turnout of over 75%, the difference being, there was a choice then, there wasn't one in the past referendum.

 

By your remark, the US should abolish democracy as well right ?

 

But I get it, democracy isn't all that great, as people keep choosing the wrong people, so it much better to have the right people run the country.

 

Thai history has shown us that corruption, nepotism and human rights abuses are a lot higher when the right people run Thailand.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2016 by sjaak327

[heybruce]

5 minutes ago, halloween said:

I have no intention of discussing your suppositions or endlessly repeating my stance. Your opinions of democratic evolution are your own - I don't believe the tiger will change its stripes, not willingly at least.

Your denial of PTP's armed wing is ridiculous; next you will be telling me that the UDD is an independent political movement.

BTW Do you know how tiresome the constant BS about human rights are, the claims of how great your democracy is, when 40% of your country's eligible citizens can't even be bothered to vote.

In short, you have no answers, and insist of calling facts "opinions".  I can provide examples of governments evolving from corrupt autocracies to functioning democracies, can you give examples of military rule providing "REAL democracy"?

 

I don't deny the UDD had armed members, just as many of Suthep's supporters were armed.  I deny that the PTP directed violence against elected governments.

 

BTW, do you know how BS your diversion about voter turn-out in other countries is to this topic?

[Eric Loh]

53 minutes ago, sujoop said:

 

Well Gents, your woefully low standards for democracy defacto abets the democracy-destroying actions of the autocrat Thaksin, bringing us to the current sorry state where it's now 'necessarily' a baby-sat senate for the next 5 years like it or not.

 

 

Even a flawed democracy like Singapore or Malaysia or Thaksin's government is much much better and has more freedom than an authoritarian regime that took power by force, robbed poeple freedoom and abuses his citizens. And you still have not answer my question why an appointed senators can succeed when it failed 4 times in history. 

[MZurf]

2 hours ago, halloween said:

I know that you don't accept the result of the referendum. And that you violently oppose changes to limit the power of a US-backed criminal. Bad luck, they will happen anyway.

"I know that you don't accept the result of the referendum."

 

And I know that you don't accept the results of the elections. Elections that happened after free and vigorous debate. Much unlike the referendum organized by an illegal junta and where public debate was not allowed.

You keep bleating on about the corrupt politicians (which is absolutely true) but spectacularly fail to see that the bunch currently in power are no different. Or is it perhaps a prerequisite that Generals are rich before they get the job?

And why do you even bother defending the junta when you have stated that you don't care who is in power as long as it's not Thaksin???

 

"And that you violently oppose changes to limit the power of a US-backed criminal. "

Do you mean he has resorted to violence??  You should be careful about such allegations. Yes, limitations to the power of Thaksin is what the junta desperately wants to happen. That, and the power of the people.

[sujoop]

55 minutes ago, sjaak327 said:

 

1 hour ago, sujoop said:

 

Forgot to add, also in 2013 Thaksin's govt passed the largest borrowing bill in the history of Thailand (also in the wee hours, of course) and to TOP that, added a clause which stated NO parliamentary oversight on how the record loan was spent by it's MP's...
 

So let's mini-review the Thaksin proxy/dynasty 'democracy' some aspire to here:
 

-Buy up smaller parties and sweep into power
-Load up the Senate with spouses of your own house members effectively destroying checks/balances
-Get Sis's Govt to ram through amnesty bill for SELF
-Appoint relatives to head both Military & Police (autocratic much?)
-Appoint 'trusted' allies in key positions such as CHALERM for JUSTICE (!?)
-Proposed bill that citizens lodge complaints to HIS Attorney General, not the courts
-Ram through largest debt borrowing with clause stating NO oversight on spending it...

AND STILL SOME DRONE ON CALLING THIS SHAM 'DEMOCRACY'....
If this occurred in your own countries you lot would be screaming!
 

Well Gents, your woefully low standards for democracy defacto abets the democracy-destroying actions of the autocrat Thaksin, bringing us to the current sorry state where it's now 'necessarily' a baby-sat senate for the next 5 years like it or not.

 

Hmm, not sure how Thaksin could load up the senate with his own candidates, pretty certain the electorate did this, not Thaksin.

 

When the nepotism is concerned, we can see blatant examples of that in the current administration, with the only difference being, that they never received a mandate at all.

 

You accuse Thaksin of the very things this administration is doing, with the difference that now there is zero accountability, when Thaksin was at the helm there certain was accountability.

 

 

one more:
-Want to evade paying tax on your multibillion family biz sale? Just pass a law...

Thaksin, your lot's hero of 'democracy' and democratic values.... how aspirational!
Again, if your Govt pulled sh$t like this you'd be in the street - with pitchforks!
 

You also appear to be alluding Thaksin acted similar to the Junta (just that he was elected, so that's ok by you lot, what hypocrites...) And what accountability? The larger point you lot are missing here, is a Coup WAS the last measure remaining to counter-act the UN-democratic actions and subverting of checks/balances by Thaksin & proxies. The other option was to just roll over and let him take complete control like a Marcos, Suharto, or his buddy Hun Sen etc. Well that eventuality was necessarily stopped again and now directly BECAUSE of Thaksin's incessant, blatant abuse and manipulation of 'democracy', HERE WE ARE! Deal with it and see you in 5 years to try again. Meanwhile, sorry, but the senate baby-sitting role has been proven to be HIGHLY necessary in the interim.

 

[smedly]

2 hours ago, sujoop said:

The senate was designed to provide checks & balances to the governing party controlled house. However, during the years when Thaksin was prime minister, the senate became stacked with spouses and relatives from his political party and affiliated /purchased party MPs. This packing of the senate with the spouses of MPs from the ruling party meant that Thaksin’s political machine could override the intent of the constitution for a senate that could check the expected overreach of the elected.
   

Thus in the 2007 constitution following Thaksin's exile, the chamber was changed to a minority appointed Senate whereby 76 Senators were directly elected from the 76 Provinces and Bangkok, while the other 74 were appointed from various sectors by the Senate Selection Committee. In 2013 the upper house passed a bill for amnesty in the middle of the night (primarily designed to free Thaksin from charges and allow him to return). The Senate  which would likely have narrowly passed the bill ultimately rejected it following massive protests.
   

Also in 2013 the Thaksin-backed Govt tried to amend the constitution to return to of a fully elected Senate which again allowed husbands, wives and  relatives of ruling House MP's to become Senators (again effectively removing all impartiality, thus removing the very checks & balances to the governing party controlled house - the very purpose the Senate was meant for).  Further, the Thaksin-backed Puea Thai Govt proposed a bill which would remove the rights of citizens to petition the constitution court and instead all charges against the Govt would have to be lodged firstly to the Govt appointed Attorney General, who would then deem if a charge 'merited' being sent on to the court.
 

Thaksin also had relatives appointed to head / control both the Military and Police, plus appointed 'trusted' allies in key positions such as CHALERM as JUSTICE Minister... (however these appointments are within the purview of the ruling party, no matter how obviously controlling or repugnant).
   

Thus, this is just a small example of how various Thaksin controlled Govt's have systematically abused, diverted, subverted and corrupted not only the checks and balances of government but the very intent of democracy. This brings us to the current very sad state of affairs (brought upon by Mr Thaksin himself one might argue). As a result, the Senate will now be appointed for a period of 5 years preventing any further ram-rodding through self-serving bills in the wee hours. Meanwhile, the house majority can still choose it's PM and pass bills (whilst being baby-sat which unfortunately has been proven highly necessary).

 

you nailed it

 

you get my nomination for post of the year

[heybruce]

3 minutes ago, sujoop said:

 

one more:
-Want to evade paying tax on your multibillion family biz sale? Just pass a law...

Thaksin, your lot's hero of 'democracy' and democratic values.... how aspirational!
Again, if your Govt pulled sh$t like this you'd be in the street - with pitchforks!
 

You also appear to be alluding Thaksin acted similar to the Junta (just that he was elected, so that's ok by you lot, what hypocrites...) And what accountability? The larger point you lot are missing here, is a Coup WAS the last measure remaining to counter-act the UN-democratic actions and subverting of checks/balances by Thaksin & proxies. The other option was to just roll over and let him take complete control like a Marcos, Suharto, or his buddy Hun Sen etc. Well that eventuality was necessarily stopped again and now directly BECAUSE of Thaksin's incessant, blatant abuse and manipulation of 'democracy', HERE WE ARE! Deal with it and see you in 5 years to try again. Meanwhile, sorry, but the senate baby-sitting role has been proven to be HIGHLY necessary in the interim.

 

But, but, but....Thaksin!

 

Yes, there were many things wrong with the elected governments, here and everywhere else.  However, everything that was wrong with the elected governments is also wrong with the military governments--corruption, nepotism, lack of accountability, etc.  Pluse, with military governments you also get human rights abuses and no checks on power, and there is no way to remove them from power.  Thailand's history has demonstrated the corrupt military "baby-sitters" will abuse power and enrich themselves at the expense of the nation, and the only recourse involves blood on the streets.

 

Democracy is bad, but it is much better than the alternatives.  Of course there is no way you will take off your blinders and see that.

[Eric Loh]

3 minutes ago, smedly said:

you nailed it

 

you get my nomination for post of the year

 

The military and Suthep rose up in unison to applaud the recipient of the Smedly award. Leaders from North Korea and China sent congralutory messages. Welcome to the authoritarian club where the peasants have no voice. 

 

 

 

 

[JAG]

5 hours ago, Plutojames88 said:

If you think the Thai population are going to tolerate the elites much longer ....then all this matters.

I see no mandate to an already treasonable gang of thugs holding a nation ransom by gun.

 

This won't fly in the face of international opinion.

And the country is sliding with declining human rights , and tensions growing.

 

 

I think these military junta men posing as legitimate government will be shot by the election date....or victim to uprising and torn to pieces first.

I think it will take longer.

 

Perhaps  two election "cycles" resulting in a PM imposed against the wishes of the electorate and contrary to the election results should do it. 5 years or so.

[smedly]

28 minutes ago, heybruce said:

But, but, but....Thaksin!

 

Yes, there were many things wrong with the elected governments, here and everywhere else.  However, everything that was wrong with the elected governments is also wrong with the military governments--corruption, nepotism, lack of accountability, etc.  Pluse, with military governments you also get human rights abuses and no checks on power, and there is no way to remove them from power.  Thailand's history has demonstrated the corrupt military "baby-sitters" will abuse power and enrich themselves at the expense of the nation, and the only recourse involves blood on the streets.

 

Democracy is bad, but it is much better than the alternatives.  Of course there is no way you will take off your blinders and see that.

The blinders are totally yours and your mates

 

Like I have stated here many times, past elected governments have no interest in fixing the problems as they are making a heap of money through corruption, military governments have tried and failed many times to close the gaps, I believe this one is different - you don't or have some other motive for not agreeing - we can agree to differ on that, only time will tell at to who was right, either way I believe we are looking at 5 years of stability, if I see a foul I will call it like always have done

[smedly]

34 minutes ago, Eric Loh said:

 

The military and Suthep rose up in unison to applaud the recipient of the Smedly award. Leaders from North Korea and China sent congralutory messages. Welcome to the authoritarian club where the peasants have no voice. 

 

 

 

 

more garbage

 

you know Thailand just had a referendum - right

 

The peasants as you call them voted - move on

[heybruce]

8 minutes ago, smedly said:

The blinders are totally yours and your mates

 

Like I have stated here many times, past elected governments have no interest in fixing the problems as they are making a heap of money through corruption, military governments have tried and failed many times to close the gaps, I believe this one is different - you don't or have some other motive for not agreeing - we can agree to differ on that, only time will tell at to who was right, either way I believe we are looking at 5 years of stability, if I see a foul I will call it like always have done

" military governments have tried and failed many times to close the gaps"

 

I don't know if that's funny or tragic.  You ignore the self-serving corruption so obvious in the military and insist that the corrupt generals will fix all the democracy problems in Thailand.  You are enamored with the idea of a magical quick fix where the military, against all logic and historical precedent, impose a stable democracy on Thailand.

 

Democracy needs time to mature into a stable form.  Democracy needs more than one cycle in elected office.  Most of all democracy needs for the military to stay out of politics.  Thailand doesn't have democracy because the military has staged a coup on average every seven years since 1932. 

[halloween]

43 minutes ago, heybruce said:

But, but, but....Thaksin!

 

Yes, there were many things wrong with the elected governments, here and everywhere else.  However, everything that was wrong with the elected governments is also wrong with the military governments--corruption, nepotism, lack of accountability, etc.  Pluse, with military governments you also get human rights abuses and no checks on power, and there is no way to remove them from power.  Thailand's history has demonstrated the corrupt military "baby-sitters" will abuse power and enrich themselves at the expense of the nation, and the only recourse involves blood on the streets.

 

Democracy is bad, but it is much better than the alternatives.  Of course there is no way you will take off your blinders and see that.

Oh my. You object to the term violently, but then come out with " the only recourse involves blood on the streets. " Whose? Not yours, that's for sure.

The Thais seem to have recognised a second option - waiting until the changes are made and democracy is restored, enjoying the calm until the pigs are let loose to fight over their place at the trough. And despite all the doom and gloom predictions of "blood on the streets" it seems to be the preferred.

[heybruce]

10 minutes ago, smedly said:

more garbage

 

you know Thailand just had a referendum - right

 

The peasants as you call them voted - move on

More garbage.  Only the most blinkered junta supporters call the referendum legitimate. 

 

Propaganda, censorship, no independent monitoring of the election and a choice between military rule under the proposed constitution or a military rule under the constitution of the military's choosing.

 

As I pointed out to Halloween, if there were a referendum in which the choice was between PTP rule with Yingluck as leader of TRT rule with Thaksin as leader, you would scream the referendum was unfair.

 

 

[halloween]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

More garbage.  Only the most blinkered junta supporters call the referendum legitimate. 

 

Propaganda, censorship, no independent monitoring of the election and a choice between military rule under the proposed constitution or a military rule under the constitution of the military's choosing.

 

As I pointed out to Halloween, if there were a referendum in which the choice was between PTP rule with Yingluck as leader of TRT rule with Thaksin as leader, you would scream the referendum was unfair.

 

 

And Halloween denies your BS. But that won't stop repeating it people get tired of refuting your crap.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, heybruce said:

But, but, but....Thaksin!

 

Yes, there were many things wrong with the elected governments, here and everywhere else.  However, everything that was wrong with the elected governments is also wrong with the military governments--corruption, nepotism, lack of accountability, etc.  Pluse, with military governments you also get human rights abuses and no checks on power, and there is no way to remove them from power.  Thailand's history has demonstrated the corrupt military "baby-sitters" will abuse power and enrich themselves at the expense of the nation, and the only recourse involves blood on the streets.

 

Democracy is bad, but it is much better than the alternatives.  Of course there is no way you will take off your blinders and see that.

 

11 minutes ago, halloween said:

Oh my. You object to the term violently, but then come out with " the only recourse involves blood on the streets. " Whose? Not yours, that's for sure.

The Thais seem to have recognised a second option - waiting until the changes are made and democracy is restored, enjoying the calm until the pigs are let loose to fight over their place at the trough. And despite all the doom and gloom predictions of "blood on the streets" it seems to be the preferred.

" Thailand's history has demonstrated the corrupt military "baby-sitters" will abuse power and enrich themselves at the expense of the nation, and the only recourse involves blood on the streets."

 

I was citing historical precedent, not advocating violence.  But a good junta propagandist like you doesn't let facts get in your way.

 

As has been explained to you repeatedly, the fraudulent referendum doesn't reflect the choices of the Thai people.  But, again, you don't let facts interfere with your propaganda.

 

Edited August 25, 2016 by heybruce