Rapists Of British Tourist Escape Death Sentence

[Jet Gorgon]

As for rape/murder of farang, I do not want to be snippy or suggest this was the case in this incident, but girls who walk around half naked are targets for attack.

That sounds remarkably like the ancient defence of rape in that those who dress in a provocative manner are 'asking for it'. Is that what you're trying to say?

from the thread:

Warnings To Accompany TV Sex And Violence :

Friends of Women Foundation head and working-team member Supensri Puengkoaksoong said scantily clad television hosts, actors, ad-presenters, singers and dancers prompted teenagers to wear similar clothing, resulting in sex crimes.

Did the Foundation give you a work permit, Jet?

Um, no. I gotta write international finance reports for a living. Did not know my comment would cause so much fury.

I was on Samui at the time of this lady's murder and the word was that the boys were executed. Pretty easy to change names and put somebody else in their cells. Just speculation, of course.

[Dupont]

I didn't follow this story right to the end but I was under the impression that they had been executed already.

Yes, I definitely heard the pair were tried and immediately executed.

As for rape/murder of farang, I do not want to be snippy or suggest this was the case in this incident, but girls who walk around half naked are targets for attack. Never mind the ones who get drunk/stoned and come on to local men. I have seen many of these young "ladies" do exactly that.

That sounds remarkably like the ancient defence of rape in that those who dress in a provocative manner are 'asking for it'. Is that what you're trying to say?

Lets look at your vacuous comment.

What do you, and women in general, think that men think about when they see women wearing scanty clothing, kissing other girls, rolling and having sex in the sea at full moon parties, dancing naked and suggestively? Shopping? football, Car repairs, Learning a new language, Thai Visa.com? Please enlighten us.

Women (as with men) do this to provoke a sexual response usually from a particular guy or group of guys. However, the effect you want your behaviour to have on Mr Write, Mr Handsone etc, has the same effect (sexual stimulation) on Mr Wrong, Mr Dumb and god forbid, poor men who are beneath you. Assexually provocative display provokes a sexual reaction and for a very very small minority of men, this is uncontroable.

Before the PC brigade get after me, i think the crime was horrendous and they should have been executed for it. Am also sure she was not behaving provocatively in anyway.

Edited January 20, 2007 by Dupont

[MrPlum]

The death sentence should be reserved for those who do gross harm to society as a whole. Example, those guilty of massive corruption.

Another example of gross harm to society might be the the sickening selfishness of the current power structure, its patronising contempt for ordinary Thais and the perpetuation of an artificial hierachical structure, discarded centuries ago by most other countries, serving only to preserve privilege and wealth and keep the poor downtrodden.Is this the kind of thing you had in mind?

Not sure you understand the extent of western or 'civilised' corruption and the degree to which western elites keep their own populations downtrodden, not forgetting the U.S. genocide in the third world. They are just more sophisticated in presenting their wealth and land grabs as good for everyone. I don't believe the Thai military is attempting to dominate the planet and invading (liberating) and defending freedom (U.S. corporate profits). Thailand is not perfect but the elite are doing what elites have done for centuries. Obtaining and keeping power, then sharing out the spoils amongst themselves. If you are part of the master race, you (may) benefit. If not, then it's contempt for you.

The west does not have democracy and it's own hierarchical structure is generally a two party system with the elites not caring much which side wins, since they are all in the pocket of the cliques. The best democracy money can buy. If you do have the gall to try and act presidentially, you get the Kennedy treatment.

Not sure what you mean by an 'artifical hierarchical structure'. I have a boss, who has a boss, who has a boss. Besides the boss appointing his family/friends into positions of influence, how is Thailand different?

[Jet Gorgon]

I didn't follow this story right to the end but I was under the impression that they had been executed already.

Yes, I definitely heard the pair were tried and immediately executed.

As for rape/murder of farang, I do not want to be snippy or suggest this was the case in this incident, but girls who walk around half naked are targets for attack. Never mind the ones who get drunk/stoned and come on to local men. I have seen many of these young "ladies" do exactly that.

That sounds remarkably like the ancient defence of rape in that those who dress in a provocative manner are 'asking for it'. Is that what you're trying to say?

Lets look at your vacuous comment.

What do you, and women in general, think that men think about when they see women wearing scanty clothing, kissing other girls, rolling and having sex in the sea at full moon parties, dancing naked and suggestively? Shopping? football, Car repairs, Learning a new language, Thai Visa.com? Please enlighten us.

Women (as with men) do this to provoke a sexual response usually from a particular guy or group of guys. However, the effect you want your behaviour to have on Mr Write, Mr Handsone etc, has the same effect (sexual stimulation) on Mr Wrong, Mr Dumb and god forbid, poor men who are beneath you. Assexually provocative display provokes a sexual reaction and for a very very small minority of men, this is uncontroable.

Before the PC brigade get after me, i think the crime was horrendous and they should have been executed for it. Am also sure she was not behaving provocatively in anyway.

Thanks for that, Dupont.

[Tolley]

The death sentence should be reserved for those who do gross harm to society as a whole. Example, those guilty of massive corruption.

Another example of gross harm to society might be the the sickening selfishness of the current power structure, its patronising contempt for ordinary Thais and the perpetuation of an artificial hierachical structure, discarded centuries ago by most other countries, serving only to preserve privilege and wealth and keep the poor downtrodden.Is this the kind of thing you had in mind?

Not sure you understand the extent of western or 'civilised' corruption and the degree to which western elites keep their own populations downtrodden, not forgetting the U.S. genocide in the third world. They are just more sophisticated in presenting their wealth and land grabs as good for everyone. I don't believe the Thai military is attempting to dominate the planet and invading (liberating) and defending freedom (U.S. corporate profits). Thailand is not perfect but the elite are doing what elites have done for centuries. Obtaining and keeping power, then sharing out the spoils amongst themselves. If you are part of the master race, you (may) benefit. If not, then it's contempt for you.

The west does not have democracy and it's own hierarchical structure is generally a two party system with the elites not caring much which side wins, since they are all in the pocket of the cliques. The best democracy money can buy. If you do have the gall to try and act presidentially, you get the Kennedy treatment.

Not sure what you mean by an 'artifical hierarchical structure'. I have a boss, who has a boss, who has a boss. Besides the boss appointing his family/friends into positions of influence, how is Thailand different?

I think you are right up to a point.

In Thailand and other such countries the corruption and double dealing is very much right out there in the open. Western democracies are a little more sophisticated in the way they handle these matters but nonetheless often get the same results.

Power is more diffuse in most western democracies and the judiciary a little more likely to be independent to an extent. In Thailand you can get away with almost anything if you are part of the ruling elite but the ruling elite in western countries probably don't have that degree of freedom although they can and do get away with plenty.

I think the overall point you make is a good one but with some qualification.

[Tony Clifton]

I've just read this:

She(Ruth Adams, Katherine Horton's friend) said she was told she wouldn't be able to fly home for a month, and that she would not be given a translator.

When she tried to leave on 5 January, police called her in for questioning and told her she could not leave without going through a Thai court.

Ms Adams, who had not slept for four days at this point, said while she was at the airport, her boarding pass, camera and phone were taken by Thai police.

She said: "I later found out they had taken copies of pictures and sold them to the press. I didn't submit any pictures."

This is disgusting in my view, firstly not getting an interpreter, this wouldn't have happened in 99% of countries in the world, secondly her belongings being confiscated and her images stolen by the police - is there no shame in this kind of thing??

Utterly disgusting behaviour!

Thai police? Shame? Most of them do BRING shame onto this country, they never FEEL shame.

[Dupont]

I've just read this:

She(Ruth Adams, Katherine Horton's friend) said she was told she wouldn't be able to fly home for a month, and that she would not be given a translator.

When she tried to leave on 5 January, police called her in for questioning and told her she could not leave without going through a Thai court.

Ms Adams, who had not slept for four days at this point, said while she was at the airport, her boarding pass, camera and phone were taken by Thai police.

She said: "I later found out they had taken copies of pictures and sold them to the press. I didn't submit any pictures."

This is disgusting in my view, firstly not getting an interpreter, this wouldn't have happened in 99% of countries in the world, secondly her belongings being confiscated and her images stolen by the police - is there no shame in this kind of thing??

Utterly disgusting behaviour!

Thai police? Shame? Most of them do BRING shame onto this country, they never FEEL shame.

The real shame for me is that many Thais of my aquaintance down the years, are scared to approach them even when they have a serious problem. They certainly never walk into bars or restaurants or shops when they are present.

What they are doing, whilst walking round with the Royal Insignia, must constitue some offence against the only institution in Thailand with any real integrity.

Edited January 20, 2007 by Dupont

[November Rain]

I didn't follow this story right to the end but I was under the impression that they had been executed already.

Yes, I definitely heard the pair were tried and immediately executed.

As for rape/murder of farang, I do not want to be snippy or suggest this was the case in this incident, but girls who walk around half naked are targets for attack. Never mind the ones who get drunk/stoned and come on to local men. I have seen many of these young "ladies" do exactly that.

That sounds remarkably like the ancient defence of rape in that those who dress in a provocative manner are 'asking for it'. Is that what you're trying to say?

Lets look at your vacuous comment.

What do you, and women in general, think that men think about when they see women wearing scanty clothing, kissing other girls, rolling and having sex in the sea at full moon parties, dancing naked and suggestively? Shopping? football, Car repairs, Learning a new language, Thai Visa.com? Please enlighten us.

Women (as with men) do this to provoke a sexual response usually from a particular guy or group of guys. However, the effect you want your behaviour to have on Mr Write, Mr Handsone etc, has the same effect (sexual stimulation) on Mr Wrong, Mr Dumb and god forbid, poor men who are beneath you. Assexually provocative display provokes a sexual reaction and for a very very small minority of men, this is uncontroable.

Before the PC brigade get after me, i think the crime was horrendous and they should have been executed for it. Am also sure she was not behaving provocatively in anyway.

Pardon me if I'm incorrect in this, but I remember reading some research a few years ago that stated categorically that rape was not so much a crime about sex as a crime about power. This seems to make perfect sense to me, the rapist is exhibiting his power over the victim, doesn't matter how she is dressed. The "scantily clad" argument is just an excuse, used by sex offenders, that washes with many (male) judges.

Yes, I'll agree that many western women in Thailand do not do themselves or other farang women any favours in how we are perceived by Thais (men & women), but I'm not sure that this leads to rape, although I'm sure it leads to us being thought "easy".

But this wasn't just rape, though. This was rape, beating & murder. I'm afraid I can't see in any circumstances how, even the stupid way some girls do behave over here (and I'm not for one second suggesting Ms Horton was like this, I'm simply continuing the point from previous posts) can be in any way blamed for this horrific event.

[Arkady]

I didn't follow this story right to the end but I was under the impression that they had been executed already.

Yes, I definitely heard the pair were tried and immediately executed.

As for rape/murder of farang, I do not want to be snippy or suggest this was the case in this incident, but girls who walk around half naked are targets for attack. Never mind the ones who get drunk/stoned and come on to local men. I have seen many of these young "ladies" do exactly that.

That sounds remarkably like the ancient defence of rape in that those who dress in a provocative manner are 'asking for it'. Is that what you're trying to say?

Lets look at your vacuous comment.

What do you, and women in general, think that men think about when they see women wearing scanty clothing, kissing other girls, rolling and having sex in the sea at full moon parties, dancing naked and suggestively? Shopping? football, Car repairs, Learning a new language, Thai Visa.com? Please enlighten us.

Women (as with men) do this to provoke a sexual response usually from a particular guy or group of guys. However, the effect you want your behaviour to have on Mr Write, Mr Handsone etc, has the same effect (sexual stimulation) on Mr Wrong, Mr Dumb and god forbid, poor men who are beneath you. Assexually provocative display provokes a sexual reaction and for a very very small minority of men, this is uncontroable.

Before the PC brigade get after me, i think the crime was horrendous and they should have been executed for it. Am also sure she was not behaving provocatively in anyway.

Pardon me if I'm incorrect in this, but I remember reading some research a few years ago that stated categorically that rape was not so much a crime about sex as a crime about power. This seems to make perfect sense to me, the rapist is exhibiting his power over the victim, doesn't matter how she is dressed. The "scantily clad" argument is just an excuse, used by sex offenders, that washes with many (male) judges.

Yes, I'll agree that many western women in Thailand do not do themselves or other farang women any favours in how we are perceived by Thais (men & women), but I'm not sure that this leads to rape, although I'm sure it leads to us being thought "easy".

But this wasn't just rape, though. This was rape, beating & murder. I'm afraid I can't see in any circumstances how, even the stupid way some girls do behave over here (and I'm not for one second suggesting Ms Horton was like this, I'm simply continuing the point from previous posts) can be in any way blamed for this horrific event.

In middle eastern countries where the women are covered up the argument about Western women flaunting themselves in provocative clothing might make more sense. In Thailand where here are sexily clad Thai girls walking around everywhere it doesn't stack up, although there is of course a mystic about white women because most Thai men would not normally have the chance to bed one. From the pictures, Ms Horton looked like an ordinary university student and there is no suggestion that she wore revealing clothing or flaunted herself. She was talking on the phone to her mother when she was attacked. The murderers apparently attacked her because she was the first white woman they spotted alone and vulnerable on the beach and probably didn't even take her looks or the way she dressed into account.