NCPO would select all 250 senators under EC draft

[craigt3365]

2 minutes ago, heybruce said:

For some reason you just refuse to assign full responsibility for the coup where it belongs, with the military.  You refuse to accept that if there had been no amnesty bill that Suthep, the military, and the powers behind them would have found some other pretext.  In your mind the coup was the government's fault for doing things you and the elite didn't like, and you didn't want to wait for an election to see what the majority of voters thought about the government's actions.

 

We are in agreement on one thing, if there had been no amnesty for the coup leaders, and if past amnesties were provoked, coups would end in Thailand.

I'm stating facts.  Saying the military and powers behind them would have done a coup any way is a conspiracy theory.  You just can't seem to accept the previous government was responsible for the coup.

[heybruce]

20 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

Maybe I'm seeing the wrong one, but I don't see a question in #63.

 

I 100% agree with you!  The election was a sham, from both sides of the political spectrum.  PTP tried to ram it through as they knew they'd win, the yellow shirts tried to stop it.  But!  That wasn't the spark.  It was the amnesty vote.  After that, I 100% agree with you!!!! LOL

"PTP tried to ram it through as they knew they'd win, the yellow shirts tried to stop it."

 

The PTP was at a low point in popularity, they would have suffered in the election they called.  Fragmented opposition probably would have left them with more votes than any other party, but they would have been forced into a coalition government.  An election would have weakened the PTP democratically, as it should be.

 

The yellow shirts tried to stop the election because they knew their party, the Democrats, were also at a low point in popularity and would have also suffered.  That's why they opposed the election and democratic change, the (anti)Democrats only support elections when they think they'll win.

 

The military saw that an election would not result in a royalist government, it would result in a new government with new electoral legitimacy.  A coup against a newly elected government looks bad, so they staged the coup before an election could be held.

[Alive]

Well this news report/commentary is relevant to set the scene prior to the current state. This was 2011 prior to that election.

 

 

[debate101]

1 hour ago, craigt3365 said:

The military did the coup because of what the politicians did.  Cause and effect.  Again, I'm not in favor of the military ruling this country!  Just can't blame them for everything bad that's happening here.  No amnesty probably would have averted a coup.  It was the spark.

 

Would you go so far as to say the politicians were "asking for it" because of the way they were dressed? Do you deny that it was planned well in advance?

 

Everyone must suffer now because of what the naughty politicians have done? Are we being collectively punished?

 

If you peel back the onion just a little bit, you'll see that none of this logically follows. We're living on a mountain of logical fallacies that grows taller by the day.

[heybruce]

5 minutes ago, craigt3365 said:

I'm stating facts.  Saying the military and powers behind them would have done a coup any way is a conspiracy theory.  You just can't seem to accept the previous government was responsible for the coup.

Saying the military and the powers behind them would have done a coup anyway is a logical conclusion based upon the history of Thailand since 1932.  You can't accept that a military coup is inexcusable, and that the previous government was elected and was trying to hold new elections. 

[tomta]

Had the military not given themselves an amnesty but rather said, "We needed to save the country. A coup was the only possibility.  When we have restored democracy, we will accept being charged with treason and willingly face the penalties. We will sacrifice ourselves for the good of the country", one might accept their genuine and noble heroism that they so loudly proclaim. But they didn't, of course.

[debate101]

It is ceaselessly amazing to me that some foreign posters, who have carried with them to Thailand the many advantages conferred by the egalitarian nature of free societies, including knowledge of the worst moral atrocities of history, will continue to apologize for and defend this creeping fascism up until the day the secret police arrive to knock at their door.

 

Yes Thailand has survived military dictatorships in the past, but none has had to contend with the recent memory of such a long stretch of relatively successful democratic rule (big-picture wise) as well as such strong ideological opposition, both domestically and abroad.

 

As their plans to reform the entire country's mindset to conform with their doctrine crack and crumble, as they must, do you think they will respond with tempered adjustment or by cranking up the nationalism/fascism meter? Who do you suppose is first in line to receive the brunt end of that bludgeon? I'll give you a hint. It isn't the natives.

[robblok]

21 minutes ago, debate101 said:

It is ceaselessly amazing to me that some foreign posters, who have carried with them to Thailand the many advantages conferred by the egalitarian nature of free societies, including knowledge of the worst moral atrocities of history, will continue to apologize for and defend this creeping fascism up until the day the secret police arrive to knock at their door.

 

Yes Thailand has survived military dictatorships in the past, but none has had to contend with the recent memory of such a long stretch of relatively successful democratic rule (big-picture wise) as well as such strong ideological opposition, both domestically and abroad.

 

As their plans to reform the entire country's mindset to conform with their doctrine crack and crumble, as they must, do you think they will respond with tempered adjustment or by cranking up the nationalism/fascism meter? Who do you suppose is first in line to receive the brunt end of that bludgeon? I'll give you a hint. It isn't the natives.

Im constantly amazed that people who grew up in democracies could have mistaken the Shins reign of power as democratic. The only thing the democracy here has in common with other countries is that people get to vote. After that those in power replace everyone and make sure that they can't be touched and pillage the country. 

 

The military is just an other faction who in my eyes is less bad but certainly not good. 

 

Russia is a democracy.. they vote.. North Korea too.. 

 

Now if the previous government had behaved and played by the rules they would still be in power, but they wanted their corrupt convicted leader back and people went to the streets to protest against it.. then they led their red attack dogs of their leash to bomb and shoot the protesters with Charlem telling them he could not protect them and they should go home. (as intended). 

 

Now give me the military every day over a government that lets their own armed faction bomb and shoot protesters and claim innocence while on stage they are cheering their attacks even killing kids. (they did not know kids were killed but others were too and they cheered). Call that a democracy ? 

 

If you take a tally of the victims its clear to see what side is the most violent. 

[brucec64]

41 minutes ago, robblok said:

Im constantly amazed that people who grew up in democracies could have mistaken the Shins reign of power as democratic. The only thing the democracy here has in common with other countries is that people get to vote. After that those in power replace everyone and make sure that they can't be touched and pillage the country. 

 

The military is just an other faction who in my eyes is less bad but certainly not good. 

 

Russia is a democracy.. they vote.. North Korea too.. 

 

Now if the previous government had behaved and played by the rules they would still be in power, but they wanted their corrupt convicted leader back and people went to the streets to protest against it.. then they led their red attack dogs of their leash to bomb and shoot the protesters with Charlem telling them he could not protect them and they should go home. (as intended). 

 

Now give me the military every day over a government that lets their own armed faction bomb and shoot protesters and claim innocence while on stage they are cheering their attacks even killing kids. (they did not know kids were killed but others were too and they cheered). Call that a democracy ? 

 

If you take a tally of the victims its clear to see what side is the most violent. 

 

Im constantly amazed that people who grew up in democracies could have mistaken the Shins reign of power as democratic

 

From the http://democracyranking.org/wordpress/rank/ site, Thailand's ranking as a democracy rose from 2010-2014. It ranked 63 out of 112 so it was right in the middle of countries considered to be democratic, and in the top third of all countries. So the statement that only elections were democratic is false.

 

Of course, 2015 is a different story. Thailand was not ranked because it was not a democracy.

 

Thailand was ranked considerable higher than Russia, so I'm not sure if the validity of that comparison, and of course North Korea is not a democracy, so is not ranked at all.

 

 

If you take a tally of the victims its clear to see what side is the most violent. 

 

You must be referring to the side that is second most violent. The military wins hands down in this category.

 

[MZurf]

Thaksin certainly was a threat.  No doubt about it.  The reason so many went to the streets when they tried to ran that amnesty bill through.
 
I see no altruistic motives.  On either side.  Both are bad.  Agreed?

Absolutely. But one side was elected in a national election and could have been removed but the voters, courts or other parliamentary processes. The other side TOOK power and can only be removed by force. Hughe difference.

[heybruce]

2 hours ago, robblok said:

Im constantly amazed that people who grew up in democracies could have mistaken the Shins reign of power as democratic. The only thing the democracy here has in common with other countries is that people get to vote. After that those in power replace everyone and make sure that they can't be touched and pillage the country. 

 

The military is just an other faction who in my eyes is less bad but certainly not good. 

 

Russia is a democracy.. they vote.. North Korea too.. 

 

Now if the previous government had behaved and played by the rules they would still be in power, but they wanted their corrupt convicted leader back and people went to the streets to protest against it.. then they led their red attack dogs of their leash to bomb and shoot the protesters with Charlem telling them he could not protect them and they should go home. (as intended). 

 

Now give me the military every day over a government that lets their own armed faction bomb and shoot protesters and claim innocence while on stage they are cheering their attacks even killing kids. (they did not know kids were killed but others were too and they cheered). Call that a democracy ? 

 

If you take a tally of the victims its clear to see what side is the most violent. 

Yes robblok, we all know that you don't think it's democracy if you don't agree with how the people voted.  And you've also made it very clear that you'd rather have military rule than let the people vote again.

 

What you haven't done is convince us that military rule is better than elected government.  Your excitement about violence you claim was committed by redshirts and your blindness towards violence committed by Suthep and his minions doesn't make your argument very persuasive.

 

Have you taken a credible tally of the victims?  Please share it with us.

 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, heybruce said:

Yes robblok, we all know that you don't think it's democracy if you don't agree with how the people voted.  And you've also made it very clear that you'd rather have military rule than let the people vote again.

 

What you haven't done is convince us that military rule is better than elected government.  Your excitement about violence you claim was committed by redshirts and your blindness towards violence committed by Suthep and his minions doesn't make your argument very persuasive.

 

Have you taken a credible tally of the victims?  Please share it with us.

 

You are mistaken if you presume to know what i think. I prefer a democracy, but if the democratic goverment is not democratic at all and just a sham. Then I prefer the least bad government. PTP wanted to let go 26.000 corruption cases.. junta at least goes after the corrupt (unfortunately not their own). The PTP did not go after their own either. They were as bad as the military worse in my eyes. Had they not been so bad people would never have gone on the streets. They brought it on their own heads and by their actions brought us here forced the army to step in. (or gave them a good excuse to do so)

 

Suthep just reacted.. after the Isarn Rambo (yes that was his nick name and he was proud about it) attacked and shot at the protesters every night and the police dit nothing. Then they brought in the popcorn man (thug and he went to jail for his crimes) to even it out. But only after they were attacked.. and we seen the result of that.. innocent lives lost. Without the reds constant violence it would never have come this far. Trad massacre anyone...  cheering about it .. had to go any lower. 

 

You would never believe my tally.. but 4 kids got killed by the reds.. 0 by the yellows. (oh they cheered for the attack did not know kids were dead.. why cheer if it was false flag or others.. so can be counted as red kills). Then the grenades that went wrong from the reds that killed an other 2. (also confirmed) 

 

 

[robblok]

18 minutes ago, MZurf said:

 

Absolutely. But one side was elected in a national election and could have been removed but the voters, courts or other parliamentary processes. The other side TOOK power and can only be removed by force. Hughe difference.

 

Only difference how they go in power.. not how corrupt and bad they both are.. but hey the PTP thugs were voted in that makes it all good. 

[JAG]

3 hours ago, robblok said:

Im constantly amazed that people who grew up in democracies could have mistaken the Shins reign of power as democratic. The only thing the democracy here has in common with other countries is that people get to vote. After that those in power replace everyone and make sure that they can't be touched and pillage the country. 

 

The military is just an other faction who in my eyes is less bad but certainly not good. 

 

Russia is a democracy.. they vote.. North Korea too.. 

 

Now if the previous government had behaved and played by the rules they would still be in power, but they wanted their corrupt convicted leader back and people went to the streets to protest against it.. then they led their red attack dogs of their leash to bomb and shoot the protesters with Charlem telling them he could not protect them and they should go home. (as intended). 

 

Now give me the military every day over a government that lets their own armed faction bomb and shoot protesters and claim innocence while on stage they are cheering their attacks even killing kids. (they did not know kids were killed but others were too and they cheered). Call that a democracy ? 

 

If you take a tally of the victims its clear to see what side is the most violent. 

You have evidence that the government was responsible for that violence have you, or is it just you peddling your untruths again?

[robblok]

41 minutes ago, JAG said:

You have evidence that the government was responsible for that violence have you, or is it just you peddling your untruths again?

 

 

*LOL* red shirts are the PTP their attack dogs.. judges get threatened bombs laid.. people shot.. You got high ranking goverment officials at the meeting that cheered for the trad massacre  and you say there is no link. Its a Sinn fein / IRA thing. 

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, JAG said:

You have evidence that the government was responsible for that violence have you, or is it just you peddling your untruths again?

 

17 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

 

*LOL* red shirts are the PTP their attack dogs.. judges get threatened bombs laid.. people shot.. You got high ranking goverment officials at the meeting that cheered for the trad massacre  and you say there is no link. Its a Sinn fein / IRA thing. 

In other words, no.  It's just his sincerely held belief.

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

You are mistaken if you presume to know what i think. I prefer a democracy, but if the democratic goverment is not democratic at all and just a sham. Then I prefer the least bad government. PTP wanted to let go 26.000 corruption cases.. junta at least goes after the corrupt (unfortunately not their own). The PTP did not go after their own either. They were as bad as the military worse in my eyes. Had they not been so bad people would never have gone on the streets. They brought it on their own heads and by their actions brought us here forced the army to step in. (or gave them a good excuse to do so)

 

Suthep just reacted.. after the Isarn Rambo (yes that was his nick name and he was proud about it) attacked and shot at the protesters every night and the police dit nothing. Then they brought in the popcorn man (thug and he went to jail for his crimes) to even it out. But only after they were attacked.. and we seen the result of that.. innocent lives lost. Without the reds constant violence it would never have come this far. Trad massacre anyone...  cheering about it .. had to go any lower. 

 

You would never believe my tally.. but 4 kids got killed by the reds.. 0 by the yellows. (oh they cheered for the attack did not know kids were dead.. why cheer if it was false flag or others.. so can be counted as red kills). Then the grenades that went wrong from the reds that killed an other 2. (also confirmed)

You clearly were opposed to the elected government and you clearly approve of a coup that prevented another election.  Clearly your idea of the least bad government is the least democratic one.

 

Suthep just reacted?  He led his minions into the streets, he refused to end the protests after the amnesty bill was dropped, he urged on the violence and intimidation that obstructed the February election.  He showed quite a lot of initiative, and his initiative was clearly designed to topple the elected government.  It's clear to everyone but you that Suthep used violence to provoke violence in order to justify a coup.

 

Include these events in your incomplete tally: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/19/world/asia/2-killed-including-officer-as-thai-police-move-in-on-protests.html

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

You are mistaken if you presume to know what i think. I prefer a democracy, but if the democratic goverment is not democratic at all and just a sham. Then I prefer the least bad government. PTP wanted to let go 26.000 corruption cases.. junta at least goes after the corrupt (unfortunately not their own). The PTP did not go after their own either. They were as bad as the military worse in my eyes. Had they not been so bad people would never have gone on the streets. They brought it on their own heads and by their actions brought us here forced the army to step in. (or gave them a good excuse to do so)

 

Suthep just reacted.. after the Isarn Rambo (yes that was his nick name and he was proud about it) attacked and shot at the protesters every night and the police dit nothing. Then they brought in the popcorn man (thug and he went to jail for his crimes) to even it out. But only after they were attacked.. and we seen the result of that.. innocent lives lost. Without the reds constant violence it would never have come this far. Trad massacre anyone...  cheering about it .. had to go any lower. 

 

You would never believe my tally.. but 4 kids got killed by the reds.. 0 by the yellows. (oh they cheered for the attack did not know kids were dead.. why cheer if it was false flag or others.. so can be counted as red kills). Then the grenades that went wrong from the reds that killed an other 2. (also confirmed)

You clearly were opposed to the elected government and you clearly approve of a coup that prevented another election.  Clearly your idea of the least bad government is the least democratic one.

 

Suthep just reacted?  He led his minions into the streets, he refused to end the protests after the amnesty bill was dropped, he urged on the violence and intimidation that obstructed the February election.  He showed quite a lot of initiative, and his initiative was clearly designed to topple the elected government.  It's clear to everyone but you that Suthep used violence to provoke violence in order to justify a coup.

 

Include these events in your incomplete tally: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/19/world/asia/2-killed-including-officer-as-thai-police-move-in-on-protests.html

[heybruce]

1 hour ago, robblok said:

You are mistaken if you presume to know what i think. I prefer a democracy, but if the democratic goverment is not democratic at all and just a sham. Then I prefer the least bad government. PTP wanted to let go 26.000 corruption cases.. junta at least goes after the corrupt (unfortunately not their own). The PTP did not go after their own either. They were as bad as the military worse in my eyes. Had they not been so bad people would never have gone on the streets. They brought it on their own heads and by their actions brought us here forced the army to step in. (or gave them a good excuse to do so)

 

Suthep just reacted.. after the Isarn Rambo (yes that was his nick name and he was proud about it) attacked and shot at the protesters every night and the police dit nothing. Then they brought in the popcorn man (thug and he went to jail for his crimes) to even it out. But only after they were attacked.. and we seen the result of that.. innocent lives lost. Without the reds constant violence it would never have come this far. Trad massacre anyone...  cheering about it .. had to go any lower. 

 

You would never believe my tally.. but 4 kids got killed by the reds.. 0 by the yellows. (oh they cheered for the attack did not know kids were dead.. why cheer if it was false flag or others.. so can be counted as red kills). Then the grenades that went wrong from the reds that killed an other 2. (also confirmed)

You clearly were opposed to the elected government and you clearly approve of a coup that prevented another election.  Clearly your idea of the least bad government is the least democratic one.

 

Suthep just reacted?  He led his minions into the streets, he refused to end the protests after the amnesty bill was dropped, he urged on the violence and intimidation that obstructed the February election.  He showed quite a lot of initiative, and his initiative was clearly designed to topple the elected government.  It's clear to everyone but you that Suthep used violence to provoke violence in order to justify a coup.

 

Include these events in your incomplete tally: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/19/world/asia/2-killed-including-officer-as-thai-police-move-in-on-protests.html