Problem With Adoption

[November Rain]

I'm not sure if this should go here or on the visa forum, so forgive me if I'm wrong...

I've been in Thailand for 5 years & 4 years ago met a Thai man. We started a relationship & 3 years ago he and his (then) 2 year old son moved in with me. His son is from a previous relationship with a Thai woman. In March of this year, my boyfriend died. I'm now looking after "our" son, now 5.

His family live in BKK (I'm in Hua Hin) and they, and his friends, are more than happy for me to take care of his son. The mother doesn't know anything about it, as she has had no contact with the little boy (I'll call him "A" for ease) since he was 6 months old & my boyfriend removed him from her care, as she was abusing/neglecting him.

I also have a document, signed by my boyfriend in the presence of a lawyer, saying he gives me "guardianship" of A. The problem is this: I contacted a lawyer here, admittedly with no experience of these matters, & I've been told that this document will hold up in Thailand (at least until the matter gets to court, if it ever comes to that), but that I have virtually no chance of legally adopting him, as I'm single, a woman, with limited income (I run a charity) and farang. I was told that the fact I've been his mother for 3 years doesn't count. I'm at square one, as far as that goes.

So, I'm happy to stay in LOS & be A's mother, but, as we all know, visa requirements & financial requirements may change. I may be forced to leave. And without a legal adoption & a UK passport, I can't take A with me. It isn't feasible for me to leave him with his father's family or his biological mother, for reasons I don't really want to go into in a public forum.

So, does anyone have any legal knowledge of matters like this, or any prior experience? I'd be really grateful for some help. Thanks

[ColPyat]

So, does anyone have any legal knowledge of matters like this, or any prior experience? I'd be really grateful for some help. Thanks

My advise would be to contact organisations such as Father Joe's Human Development center. They have lawyers specialised in adoption law, and are especially experienced for difficult cases.

This is a very complicated case, and you should not try to do this by yourself.

[teacup]

The first person to contact regarding to any adoption in Thailand is the dept. of public welfare. I know they have the main office in Bkk and one in Chiangmai also. They will tell you if you can adopt or not and how to go about it.

All adoptions in Thailand must be processed through the Child Adoption Center of the Department of Public Welfare (DPW), which is the sole governmental social welfare agency responsible for adoption of all Thai children.

[November Rain]

Thanks for your replies. Who should I contact first? The British Embassy or the Welfare Dept? As I said before, I would be quite happy to remain in Thailand with him, but I can't say whether visa requirements or my personal circumstances will change in the next 13 years (until he's an adult). I just want what's best for him, and I truly believe that's a stable home with me.

[GuestHouse]

You should talk to the British Embassy first and get their advice on adoption (I beleive they have a ready made information pack).

There are a couple of critical points.

Firstly to adopt in Thailand you must first receive aproval to addopt in your own country. So you are going to have to undergo the adoption assessment just the same as you would if you lived in the UK.

Secondly, you (and the child) will have to meet the adoption criteria in Thailand. This is certainly going to include an investigation into the whereabouts of the natural mother and obtaining her aproval for the adoption.

I would recommend that you perhaps talk, informally, to one of the faith groups based in Thailand who will certainly have had experience of these matters.

Be very cautious of adoption agencies as these are very often little more than brokers.

Best of luck with you plans, but brace yourself for the long haul.

[GuestHouse]

I'd also do some background checking into why the child was with the father in the first place, this is highly unusual. It may have been part of an acrimonious break-up.

Don't walk blindly into a situation whereby you find you are raking up problems with the childs paternal and maternal family.

Most of all, prepare yourself for the possibility that the mother of the child wants her child back.

[November Rain]

Thanks again for replies. Does anyone have a contact number for Father Joe's organisation (as ColPyat suggests), or for any Faith/church organisations that might be able to help?

I will take him to the British Embassy, as soon as I am able to get up to BKK. Thanks.

Guesthouse,

Yes, I'm aware I may be opening a very large & ugly can of worms, esp where his natural mother is concerned. It's one of the main reasons I haven't really done anything up till now. I think I'd just leave things as they are, if I wasn't worried that one day I'll be forced to leave Thailand without having sorted out the legalities of taking him with me. If someone could wave a magic wand & say "OK, you're fine here for 13 years", I'd just get on with quietly being his mum, here & go no further - hope his real mother never came out of the woodwork. But, I don't know what's in the future & I have to try to safeguard it for him.

[samui3]

Thanks again for replies. Does anyone have a contact number for Father Joe's organisation (as ColPyat suggests), or for any Faith/church organisations that might be able to help?

I will take him to the British Embassy, as soon as I am able to get up to BKK. Thanks.

Guesthouse,

Yes, I'm aware I may be opening a very large & ugly can of worms, esp where his natural mother is concerned. It's one of the main reasons I haven't really done anything up till now. I think I'd just leave things as they are, if I wasn't worried that one day I'll be forced to leave Thailand without having sorted out the legalities of taking him with me. If someone could wave a magic wand & say "OK, you're fine here for 13 years", I'd just get on with quietly being his mum, here & go no further - hope his real mother never came out of the woodwork. But, I don't know what's in the future & I have to try to safeguard it for him.

[samui3]

Here is some info on Father Joe organization:

Maybe then can help you..Good Luck

Human Development foundation

100/11 Kae-ha Klong Toey4,

Dhamrongratthaphiphat Rd., Klong Toey,

Bangkok 10110 Thailand.

Tel: (662) 671-5313

Fax: (662) 671-7028

E-mail: [email protected]

Web site : www.mercycentre.org

[November Rain]

Thank you very much samui3, will get in touch & see if they can help or advise.

[barryofthailand]

Here is the phone numbers to the office in BKK that handles all adoptions in Thailand. DEpt. of Public Welfare Child adoption Center. 02-246-8651, 02-247-9484, or 02-247-5084. Ask to speak to a social worker and make an appointment. You will have to go to BKK.The first thing they will want to know is the names of the mother and father. They can find out where the mother is and if she is or is not stillo living. Like gusthouse says it is very unusual in Thailand for the father to have custody when the mother is still alive.

I adopyed my wifes son. The process took 18 months. I am an American citizen and live with my wife and adopted son in Thailand.

Good luck, and please let me know if I can be of any service.

Barry

[November Rain]

Thanks Barry,

To clarify about why my boyfriend had "custody": Firstly it wasn't legal custody - no-one ever saw a lawyer or went to court. The story my boyfriend told me is that she was pretty much a one-night stand & when she got pregnant came to him asking for the money for an abortion. He refused to help have his child aborted, so she had the baby. She was a drug user (amphets & marijuana) & a drinker, so would regularly neglect the baby. My boyfriend was working away & would come to visit every few weeks. One visit, a neighbour took him aside & told him that she had been neglecting & abusing the baby, leaving him on his own while she went drinking with boyfriends & spending money on drink etc rather than food for the baby. He was 6 months old at that time. My boyfriend picked him up & took him away, while she beat him (BF) around the head & torso with a stick, whilst he had the child in his arms.

That's the story I heard. I have no way of finding out if it's true. What I do know is my boyfriend (& now me) have all of our son's documents and that for the 3 years I have had our son live with me his mother has never been in contact (although it would be easy for her to find us, as she knows how to get in touch with one of my BF's friends - I think now, though they would contact me first before telling her anything)

Anyway, thank you very much for the contact numbers & the info. I appreciate it

[lingling]

His family live in BKK (I'm in Hua Hin) and they, and his friends, are more than happy for me to take care of his son. The mother doesn't know anything about it, as she has had no contact with the little boy (I'll call him "A" for ease) since he was 6 months old & my boyfriend removed him from her care, as she was abusing/neglecting him.

I also have a document, signed by my boyfriend in the presence of a lawyer, saying he gives me "guardianship" of A. The problem is this: I contacted a lawyer here, admittedly with no experience of these matters, & I've been told that this document will hold up in Thailand (at least until the matter gets to court, if it ever comes to that), but that I have virtually no chance of legally adopting him, as I'm single, a woman, with limited income (I run a charity) and farang. I was told that the fact I've been his mother for 3 years doesn't count. I'm at square one, as far as that goes.

To clarify about why my boyfriend had "custody": Firstly it wasn't legal custody - no-one ever saw a lawyer or went to court.

Unless custody has been awarded to someone else (you, your BF's family, ...?) the mother is still the legal guardian of that child. Keeping him away/hidden from here is illegal (here as well as in your home country). If you can't adopt him, maybe his parents can and they can then put him in your care.

[scousemouse]

I wish you all the luck in the world regarding your situation November rain. It seems that as long as you stay in LOS you'll have no worries , money is always the answer here .

[a2396]

I think the Thai law states that you have to be married to adopt a child here. I think it is quite clear about this. I had a Farang lady friend (Australian), who was living in LOS and trying to adopt a Thai boy. She was not married and went "round & round" with the various gov't agencies & lawyers. They eventually took the child back to the Thai orphanage.

[November Rain]

Wow, I can't believe this one is back. I think this was my first ever thread. Thanks for the renewed interest & for the pm. I still have my son & although his grandparents have been looking for the mother, she seems to have disappeared. So, things are as they have been. I'm not hiding my son, or our sitiuation. He wants to be with me (he told me a couple of months ago that I HAD to love him, as no-one else in Thailand wanted him ) and whenever I find someone who might potentially be able to help, I tell them the whole story.

Anyway, I'm here for as long as I can be & that's all I can do. While I'm here he has a mum & a stable home life. I just need to keep going for the next 12 years - simple, huh?

[Nienke]

Wow, I can't believe this one is back. I think this was my first ever thread. Thanks for the renewed interest & for the pm. I still have my son & although his grandparents have been looking for the mother, she seems to have disappeared. So, things are as they have been. I'm not hiding my son, or our sitiuation. He wants to be with me (he told me a couple of months ago that I HAD to love him, as no-one else in Thailand wanted him ) and whenever I find someone who might potentially be able to help, I tell them the whole story.

Anyway, I'm here for as long as I can be & that's all I can do. While I'm here he has a mum & a stable home life. I just need to keep going for the next 12 years - simple, huh?

Nr, you're one of a million. You're one of those that'll never quite! It just doens't exist in your dictionary

With all the respect for what you are doing for your son and the animals!

Nienke

[Nienke]

I still have my son & although his grandparents have been looking for the mother, she seems to have disappeared. So, things are as they have been. I'm not hiding my son, or our sitiuation. He wants to be with me (he told me a couple of months ago that I HAD to love him, as no-one else in Thailand wanted him ) and whenever I find someone who might potentially be able to help, I tell them the whole story.

"seems to have disappeared"...? Prior to a custody hearing, the court will surely make sure to have the police pay a visit to her registered address and inform someone there about this. And if she can not be located they'll surely give custody to the grandparents.

From your description, this sounds like a clear case of family abduction, the most common form of child abduction anywhere.

In case you are unfamiliar with the term, the following may be of interest to you:

Defining Family Abduction

For the purposes of NISMART–2, family abduction was defined as the taking or keeping of a child by a family member in violation of a custody order, a decree, or other legitimate custodial rights, where the taking or keeping involved some element of concealment, flight, or intent to deprive a lawful custodian indefinitely of custodial privileges.

Some of the specific definitional elements are as follows:

Taking: Child was taken by a family member in violation of a custody order or decree or other legitimate custodial right.

Keeping: Child was not returned or given over by a family member in violation of a custody order or decree or other legitimate custodial right.

Concealment: Family member attempted to conceal the taking or whereabouts of the child with the intent to prevent return, contact, or visitation.

Flight: Family member transported or had the intent to transport the child from the State for the purpose of making recovery more difficult.

Intent to deprive indefinitely: Family member indicated an intent to prevent contact with the child on an indefinite basis or to affect custodial privileges indefinitely.

Child: Person under 18 years of age. For a child 15 or older, there needed to be evidence that the family member used some kind of force or threat to take or to detain the child, unless the child was mentally disabled.

Family member: A biological, adoptive, or foster family member; someone acting on behalf of such a family member; or the romantic partner of a family member

From: http://www.ncjrs.gov/html/ojjdp/nismart/02/ns1.html

What IS your problem, Lingling. Don't you think you are going way out of line here?!

[lannarebirth]

What IS your problem, Lingling. Don't you think you are going way out of line here?!

Read the CRC and then tell me that me, and the laws of Thailand and most other countries in the world are out of line. The OP describes a child abduction in the opening post of this thread.

http://www.unicef.org/crc/

In the opening post the OP described a child being rescued from a negligent caregiver. Said caregiver has lodged no police report or sought contact with her son. You are assuming facts not in evidence.

[Johpa]

From your description, this sounds like a clear case of family abduction, the most common form of child abduction anywhere.

In case you are unfamiliar with the term, the following may be of interest to you:

Defining Family Abduction

For the purposes of NISMART–2, family abduction was defined as the taking or keeping of a child by a family member in violation of a custody order, a decree, or other legitimate custodial rights, where the taking or keeping involved some element of concealment, flight, or intent to deprive a lawful custodian indefinitely of custodial privileges.

Gee, I don't recall the description of this case as involving any violation of a custody order, nor any element of concealment, nor any intent to deprive any priviledges indefinitely by the late father. It is a very complicated case and clearly the birthmother, if she were to suddenly appear, would be able to claim custody, and even the maternal grandparents, given that traditional Thai culture is matrilocal, might be able to claim custody. But abduction does not fit the bill here at all. So time to climb back up the simian ladder to a higher level of reasoning.

Edited July 1, 2007 by Johpa

[Pattaya_Fox]

Some posts have been deleted and one member has been awarded a holiday.

Accusations of child abduction will not be tolerated.

Thank you for your co-operation.

[Jersey_UK]

Some posts have been deleted and one member has been awarded a holiday.

Accusations of child abduction will not be tolerated.

Thank you for your co-operation.

I missed the deleted posts, but I can well imagine............this not the usual type of thread on TV that I read, let alone post on........but........

Now married to a Thai woman, but neither of us has kids. nor will we be looking to adopt.........but from conversations with her over the years the circumstances of OP (where the father cared for the child and not the mother) whilst not usual are far from a rarity.

IM (2nd hand!) E it would be quite usual for family to work things out between them informally rather than involving courts and formal custody hearings - and indeed situations "just" develop into "what they are" rather than anyone sitting down to make an actual decision that is intended to cover the next 18 years.........Indeed I recall 3 specific cases that the Missus mentioned where the mother is not the carer and in 1 case has limited contact and in the other 2 has no contact with the child. and in one of these the child was raised by a former freind (and not family) as the father was unknown and after 6 months the mother then "fell off the planet". now for over 20 years...........so the child got "Informally" adopted.

[Jet Gorgon]

How is it going, NR? I so hope you can resolve this without too many probs. I know you love your son; since you've cared for him for over three years, shouldn't that count for something? Wish I could do more than just offer moral support, but some good contacts and suggestion here. PattayaFox, thanks for clearing out the trash posts.

[November Rain]

lingling, I'm assuming that you were the member that got a holiday. I don't know what was on the deleted post(s), other than what has been copied into others' posts.

Firstly, I don't know why you have such a problem with me. Perhaps when you get back you'd care to pm me & let me know?

Secondly, I have not abducted my son. His grandparents know where he is & are happy for me to look after him. The local authorities know I have him. Members of the police force know I have him. His school know the circumstances & are happy for me to look after him. I have papers signed by his father giving me guardianship. I also have his birth certificate & papers as well as all of his father's papers.

His father's friends know that I have him (in fact begged me to keep him when his father died). His biological mother knows he is in this town & knows how to contact at least one of his father's friends. She has never done so, in fact, now she is being looked for, she seems to have disappeared.

I have also put this case on 2 internet forums (TV being one) and on neither is it too difficult to find out my real identity. If I've abducted my son, I've got to be pretty damned stupid to advertise the fact so much, haven't I? No-one else wants him. And, no-one (apart from you for some strange reason) seems to think it's a bad thing that I'm taking care of him & providing him with a stable home & love.

[Lite Beer]

Good luck to you NR . You sound like a very nice and caring lady. We are all with you.

[puuchai299]

Good luck,and future happiness.

[November Rain]

Thanks to both of you. And to the others that have wished my son & I well on here & in pm's.

If I can, I'd like to request to close the thread, as I've received any information I can, I think and I think the general consensus is what I've already been told & accepted (for quite a while now - this is an old thread & I wasn't the one who revived it) that staying here & taking care of my boy are the best ways to go. If anyone does have any new advice, I'd love them to pm me.

I've already stated I'm not hiding anything as far as interested parties or authorities are concerned & see no point in continuing that argument.

Thanks.