Why Thailand is moving closer to decriminalizing meth

[Strange]

3 minutes ago, ericthai said:

Correct, the issue with overdoes is there is no quality control. So a heroin addict will know from experience how much to take, but then comes in a strong bach and the same amount will cause an overdose to be being stronger. Also users that have been to rehap have a good chance to overdose if they revert back to using, because they cant handle a high dose after not using for some time. Overtime they build up a tolerance and need more and more. 

 

I agree that this would eliminate a lot of overdoses, but there would still be overdoses. 

 

There are pharmaceutical grade opiates that are already very much QC'd and very strong and comparable to heroin and people know exactly what they are getting, but they still overdose because they keep pushing their limit. Dilaudid, Oxycontin,  Fentanyl come to mind, and even know they know how much or how many MG they are cooking, they still want to push it. 

 

However, if I look at alcohol, and compare it to what we are talking about here, I'm sure there would be less negative impact on the legalization of opiates than what we already have with alcohol. In other words I'm sure it would be safer than alcohol. 

 

Im not saying is should not be legalized, I'm just playing devils advocate. 

[Strange]

1 minute ago, starky said:

Cant follow your reasoning there so opiates yes. MDMA no? Mushrooms yes, LSD no? Cannabis yes, Cocoa no? I think you need to do a bit more research. Also I think we are talking about stritcly controlled, registered, monitored decriminalization not legalisation but thanks for playing.

 

Im not playing and stated what I said. You don't have to like it and I don't really care.  Im not going to debate semantics with you. 

 

I don't want to see things that can cause damage to people "decriminalized". I did not say "Coco" I said cocaine/crack. 

 

Trust me, I've done more research than most, hero

[starky]

9 minutes ago, Strange said:

 

Im not playing and stated what I said. You don't have to like it and I don't really care.  Im not going to debate semantics with you. 

 

I don't want to see things that can cause damage to people "decriminalized". I did not say "Coco" I said cocaine/crack. 

 

Trust me, I've done more research than most, hero

Not trying to be a hero but im pretty sure opiates, mushrooms and to some extent cannabis can all do damage. Crack for sure is terrible but again alcohol is fuckin terrible when abused. As you stated in another post when people start pushing their limits thats when things get hectic. On another point I would argue LSD is probably safer than mushies as I am sure you know with mushies you never know their strength until after ingestion. Dont worry mate ive done plenty of "research" too. Not trying to fight with ya mate just didnt see  where ya were coming from. Cheers

[Chris Lawrence]

Got to back that up with spending on rehabs and training people to develop programs to treat people. This is a hideous drug, very seldom used as a social outlet. It will eventually consume the user, their families, children and neighbourhoods. Don't know if the General is fully briefed on this. Maybe he wants to put meth users in the front line as they will be fearless.

[Chris Lawrence]

2 hours ago, Strange said:

 

Ive kicked both.

 

Methadone withdrawal won't kill you. Its the same withdrawal as heroin, dilaudid, oxy, opana, same effects, just slightly less acute over a long ass time. Heroin, you'll be sneezing and watery eyed in 4-5 hours with acute symptoms in 24-48 hours. Methadone you might go 1 day or more before the sniffles start. 

 

Its a horrible thing I'm not arguing with that, but its very unlikely to die from the withdrawal. Most of the stuff posted by rehab/detox places kinda fear monger about it because they want you to go in patient. A lot of people do it because frankly once you get hooked, its HARD to function in any capacity while dope-sick for an entire month.The inpatient places nowadays prescribe Suboxone for opiate withdrawal. It kills the withdrawal, without any euphoric effects, but you are still hooked on the suboxone because you will get very sick if you stop. So they get you on suboxone and taper you off with that so that you are more "Comfortable"  and not bed-ridden crapping yourself for a month. 

 

Anyway the whole process is horrible and avoidable and the government doing this is despicable. Not only that but detox/rehab places are filling their beds nicely over it as well. Its a whole racket that should not exist. 

 

If rehab or support does not exist what does one do. Adopt the Philippines approach? Need the right people in the right place at the right time and things will work. The worse thing I saw was the rapid detox. Now the doctor running that eventually was sending people to 12 step programs after taking bucket loads of cash from mum and dad. And some died from that process.

[Ulysses G.]

1 hour ago, Chris Lawrence said:

 Don't know if the General is fully briefed on this. Maybe he wants to put meth users in the front line as they will be fearless.

 

I am not sure about that. Speed makes many people really paranoid. However, after a few nights without sleep, many will turn psychotic. They might fight, but they will be scared to death.

[Chris Lawrence]

2 minutes ago, Ulysses G. said:

 

I am not sure about that. Speed makes many people really paranoid. However, after a few nights without sleep, many will turn psychotic. They might fight, but they will be scared to death.

TIC, not to be taken seriously.

[lostinisaan]

6 hours ago, Ulysses G. said:

I am under the impression that methadone withdrawal can kill and there is plenty of evidence that some professionals agree - see first link below. If methadone takes 4 times as long as heroin to kick and you can die from doing it, to me, that would be more addictive. 

 

I have tried both heroin and methadone - way back when - but not a lot of experience with either. Speed was my drug of choice in my youth, but would never touch it again. That stuff is scary!

 

http://www.rehabs.com/how-improperly-detoxing-can-kill-you/

 

More about the horrors of legal methadone:

 

http://novusdetox.com/methadone-addiction-pain.php

 

 No idea how they handle that now, but many moons back addicts in Germany received Poloamidon L, which is twice as as strong as usual Methadone.

 

      

 

    Those who're on the needle and got their "medicine" for a few days, or a week, usually shot it. Those who received a high quantity were also the ones with the biggest problems. 

 

       Most doctors had no idea that they basically made the situation worse. Prescribing Polamidon L to drug addicts doesn't seem the right way, as the withdrawal can last 6 weeks with hallucinations and other symptoms that make it very difficult to stop.

 

         Heroin withdrawal doesn't take longer than a week and what's left is the psychological part.

 

                

 

 

[johnnywishbone]

I stopped speed and barbiturates the hard way. It wasn't so bad.
In a month I was 10 years younger.


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[AlexRRR]

Makes sense to  legalise drugs... first thing is it will take away the profits from organised crime, put them out of business secondly with the government in charge the drugs can at least be relied on to be what there meant to be thirdly it brings the users out in the open.

 

In AU we have gambling help adds in toilets of gaming places as an example with a help hot line phone number...

 

A lot more users will come forward seeking help if drugs were decriminalised.....

[Strange]

5 hours ago, Chris Lawrence said:

If rehab or support does not exist what does one do. Adopt the Philippines approach? Need the right people in the right place at the right time and things will work. The worse thing I saw was the rapid detox. Now the doctor running that eventually was sending people to 12 step programs after taking bucket loads of cash from mum and dad. And some died from that process.

 

Maybe I didn't type it out right, maybe you misunderstood me, but what you quoted was aimed at the practice of Methadone Maintenance Treatment in the US, and not at general support and recovery for addicts. 

 

Methadone Maintenance is a ridiculous idea thats costing addicts and extreme amount of pain and suffering because they don't have the funds to rehabilitate, or they don't have the time because of work (family) or both. So they opt for maintenance either because they don't really want to quit, or they do but can't. So they opt for the option that takes them off the street and functioning, but are caught in an even more vicious circle. 

 

As for general rehab/support, I don't know how it should be implemented, but I know it needs to be there. Has to be. How, though, I don't know. In the US, rehab/detox is largely dictated by insurance companies. Addiction being classified as a disease allows it to be treated by the medical field, but thats dictated by insurance. The whole 28 day stay idea in the US was a largely Insurance Based structure, and insurance companies today don't listen to what doctors say patients need in regards to treatment and time. 

[Chris Lawrence]

7 hours ago, Strange said:

 

Maybe I didn't type it out right, maybe you misunderstood me, but what you quoted was aimed at the practice of Methadone Maintenance Treatment in the US, and not at general support and recovery for addicts. 

 

Methadone Maintenance is a ridiculous idea thats costing addicts and extreme amount of pain and suffering because they don't have the funds to rehabilitate, or they don't have the time because of work (family) or both. So they opt for maintenance either because they don't really want to quit, or they do but can't. So they opt for the option that takes them off the street and functioning, but are caught in an even more vicious circle. 

 

As for general rehab/support, I don't know how it should be implemented, but I know it needs to be there. Has to be. How, though, I don't know. In the US, rehab/detox is largely dictated by insurance companies. Addiction being classified as a disease allows it to be treated by the medical field, but thats dictated by insurance. The whole 28 day stay idea in the US was a largely Insurance Based structure, and insurance companies today don't listen to what doctors say patients need in regards to treatment and time. 

Strange you read a lot into my paragraph. Oz to be exact. One secret in working with people in rehabs is to love them back into the world. Not many addicts in Oz have any type of insurance cover? It still gets back to the 'right people at the right time in the right place' circa 1990 stated by a North American Cree Indian at a indigenous drug conference.  Methadone is just a tool in an arsenal used by various medicos. It can work and I have seen just that, but is known as liquid handcuffs. If your a yank I would suggest to expand your reading on the subject and look at some of the successes that are happening around the world. Remember Nancy' famous quote 'just say no' which was the total expenditure by the Regan Govt in combating their recovery programs. That is they didn't see the need to increase spending. I have worked at the coal face, in needle exchanges, an advocate for people living and significant others with Hep C, worked in various rehabs, set up a rehab, advocate for shooting galleries, made submissions to parliament both state and federal, found funding monies, worked with people from goal and P&P, parents. people with mental health issues. Take your blinkers off mate.  

[zd1]

17 hours ago, Dexlowe said:

 

Alcohol? Deadly to go cold turkey? Jeez, you'd have to be pretty saturated in the stuff, wouldn't you?

Believe it.

About 10 or so years ago when I was working in London I knew a bicycle courier who would have 6 cans of stella every night he would hardly ever have any more or less than his 6 cans and he would never seem enebriated. Anyway he had an accident one day and ended up in hospital, he was dead within a few days they put it down to alcohol withdraw.

I don't think he considered himself to be an alcoholic as he was functioning fine and held down a job, but the fact that he had the same amount of alcohol everyday did in fact make him a functioning alcoholic.

I would actually put myself in this category of functioning alcoholic as I tend to have around about 6 beers a night every night, but I have always had a job or even run our own business, always turn up on time and don't stink of alcohol.

I enjoy drinking alcohol but I hardly ever drink to excess, but if I found myself in hospital for any reason I would make it known that I drink daily.

I have taken all sorts of drugs in the past including heroin, cocaine, crack, lsd, ecstasy, speed and cannabis but have stopped all of this many years ago, now I just use alcohol or to be more specific beer as I don't particularly like shorts.

I think a lot of people go through an experimental period when they are young with very few of them actually going on to become addicts and the laws we have in most countries in the world punish these people for experimenting with these drugs, these people are not criminals and shouldn't be treated like criminals.

[Strange]

1 hour ago, Chris Lawrence said:

Strange you read a lot into my paragraph. Oz to be exact. One secret in working with people in rehabs is to love them back into the world. Not many addicts in Oz have any type of insurance cover? It still gets back to the 'right people at the right time in the right place' circa 1990 stated by a North American Cree Indian at a indigenous drug conference.  Methadone is just a tool in an arsenal used by various medicos. It can work and I have seen just that, but is known as liquid handcuffs. If your a yank I would suggest to expand your reading on the subject and look at some of the successes that are happening around the world. Remember Nancy' famous quote 'just say no' which was the total expenditure by the Regan Govt in combating their recovery programs. That is they didn't see the need to increase spending. I have worked at the coal face, in needle exchanges, an advocate for people living and significant others with Hep C, worked in various rehabs, set up a rehab, advocate for shooting galleries, made submissions to parliament both state and federal, found funding monies, worked with people from goal and P&P, parents. people with mental health issues. Take your blinkers off mate.  

 

Apologies man, I jumped into this thread head first and didn't read any of the pages before it. 

 

Addicts in the states don't usually have insurance, unless they somehow have coverage from their parents and are under the age of 26 (I believe). But yeah for the most part no insurance, and when they do have it, the program is largely dictated by insurance companies and they don't care about the medical opinion, just get you out as quick as possible. Its even worse when people have compounding medical issues like Hep C and HIV, tuberculosis, etc. Honestly its real bad and REAL expensive without insurance. Anywhere from $500 a day to $1000 a day depending on if you need actual clinical detox with medical supervision. 

 

Quote

Methadone is just a tool in an arsenal used by various medicos. It can work and I have seen just that, but is known as liquid handcuffs. If your a yank I would suggest to expand your reading on the subject and look at some of the successes that are happening around the world.

 

Not trying to take your words out of context, but you mean that people are successfully coming off of methadone? Or you mean successfully using it as a substitute/taper option from heroin and such? Is Suboxone available in Oz? Buprenorphine (partial agonist Opiate) with Naloxone (an Opiate Blocker)

 

I just can't see how using methadone is a good idea man, and Suboxone is WAY better IMHO. Both are liquid handcuffs, but methadone WILL provide sedation (Euphoria) even for an addict with a really high tolerance. Suboxone will not (For the most part - my grandma might get sleepy) but effectively kills withdrawal without sedation or the inclination to abuse it. The only down side is that you have to wait for withdrawal to fully start before taking it because of the naloxone. There are more benefits than what I typed but you probably know about Subs, and the benefits. I just don't see (today with todays options) methadone being a good idea. Honestly man I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone but myself and the people I know. 

 

Quote

One secret in working with people in rehabs is to love them back into the world.

 

I fully agree. I think my post came off in a way I didn't mean. The ONLY good thing about helping people in rehabs or in recovery are the people themselves and the support the get from others. Without this, it would be almost impossible. I just get frustrated by the bureaucracy involved in the US that blocks good people from getting treatment because its a money/insurance business. Addicts should not be treated as criminals either and its SO HARD to get out of that cycle once you are in it. 

 

My blinkers are off man, I just don't think methadone is any kind of a good option at all. Honest to god I would rather be COMPLETELY wrecked dope-sick for 7-10 days than to be handcuffed to that liquid with the cloud of a month long withdrawal overhead. Plus there are better medicinal options out there today.  

 

Edit:

 

Just wanted to add that I have rapid detoxed with naloxone would not wish that on my worst enemy. 

Edited October 4, 2016 by Strange

[bobbin]

Canada legalized heroin a couple of weeks ago, relatively quietly.

 

Any Doctor can now write a prescription. Aimed primarily as a response to addicts who have been unsuccessful in other treatments...

 

Other details available through Google.

 

 

[Chris Lawrence]

15 hours ago, Strange said:

 

Apologies man, I jumped into this thread head first and didn't read any of the pages before it. 

 

Addicts in the states don't usually have insurance, unless they somehow have coverage from their parents and are under the age of 26 (I believe). But yeah for the most part no insurance, and when they do have it, the program is largely dictated by insurance companies and they don't care about the medical opinion, just get you out as quick as possible. Its even worse when people have compounding medical issues like Hep C and HIV, tuberculosis, etc. Honestly its real bad and REAL expensive without insurance. Anywhere from $500 a day to $1000 a day depending on if you need actual clinical detox with medical supervision. 

 

 

Not trying to take your words out of context, but you mean that people are successfully coming off of methadone? Or you mean successfully using it as a substitute/taper option from heroin and such? Is Suboxone available in Oz? Buprenorphine (partial agonist Opiate) with Naloxone (an Opiate Blocker)

 

I just can't see how using methadone is a good idea man, and Suboxone is WAY better IMHO. Both are liquid handcuffs, but methadone WILL provide sedation (Euphoria) even for an addict with a really high tolerance. Suboxone will not (For the most part - my grandma might get sleepy) but effectively kills withdrawal without sedation or the inclination to abuse it. The only down side is that you have to wait for withdrawal to fully start before taking it because of the naloxone. There are more benefits than what I typed but you probably know about Subs, and the benefits. I just don't see (today with todays options) methadone being a good idea. Honestly man I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone but myself and the people I know. 

 

 

I fully agree. I think my post came off in a way I didn't mean. The ONLY good thing about helping people in rehabs or in recovery are the people themselves and the support the get from others. Without this, it would be almost impossible. I just get frustrated by the bureaucracy involved in the US that blocks good people from getting treatment because its a money/insurance business. Addicts should not be treated as criminals either and its SO HARD to get out of that cycle once you are in it. 

 

My blinkers are off man, I just don't think methadone is any kind of a good option at all. Honest to god I would rather be COMPLETELY wrecked dope-sick for 7-10 days than to be handcuffed to that liquid with the cloud of a month long withdrawal overhead. Plus there are better medicinal options out there today.  

 

Edit:

 

Just wanted to add that I have rapid detoxed with naloxone would not wish that on my worst enemy. 

You have done it tough Strange. These people are family to me. No one deserves the life of an addict. Never tolerated idiots but my hand was always there to help people up.

 

Done can maintain those who want it that way, but it is a terrible drug.

 

The method I was involved in was living skills program. We would get people to reconnect, learn budgeting, personal presentation, computers skills, cooking skills, and get a job. This was done over say 4-9 mths and a bit longer. 12 step meetings were essential. And we had a commercial gym in the service. We operated out of a normal house with people learning to live again. If you didn't get a job within 8 weeks of hitting the door you were asked to leave. I never asked anyone to leave. This was the best service I worked at as it had tangible results. Not for everyone but it worked. I know of people who are over 25 years clean having gone thru this program.