So where does fat go?

[damo]

 

Breathe.

 

[Alive]

This is very interesting. Thanks.

[robblok]

Real interesting.. the guy is entertaining. 

 

But he said.. eat less move more and keep breathing... Im sure that won't go down here well. 

[manfredtillmann]

17:50 mins ... you need to get them out by moving more or eating less...

and with - or without all the science - that is what it all boils down to. and always has. and always will.

that's why lazy and self - indulgent people are fat.

[damo]

I see overweight men in my gym work hard and are still overweight. Not understanding the mechanics is part of the reason. The same men also walk past all the cardio equipment as they make their way into the weights room. Go figure, the basic elements are not eating less and moving more, its eating right and exercising smart. Big difference.

[robblok]

21 minutes ago, damo said:

I see overweight men in my gym work hard and are still overweight. Not understanding the mechanics is part of the reason. The same men also walk past all the cardio equipment as they make their way into the weights room. Go figure, the basic elements are not eating less and moving more, its eating right and exercising smart. Big difference.

I would say eating right is more the issue.. you can be lean from just lifting (just harder). Problem is you can do all the cardio in the world combined with lifting and still have no results (fat loss lets not call it weight loss that is something else). Eating the right things is important.

 

I do my cardio and it helps me lifting and hopefully burn some fat too. I think it should be part of a good exercise program, but I have been guilty of neglecting it. I am going to try to not make that mistake again. Since I started it again a few months back I got a lot more energy.

[damo]

I don't have anyone or thing to reference, just my own beliefs. The strength of your heart (achieved primarily through cardio) has a direct relationship to strength in resistance training. Nice runs (treadmill) 5 km in < 30 min is a good minimum, 4 X week. thats should be a minimum. Your right thought Rob, eating is key.  Combination of cardio, lifting and healthy eating with consistency becomes lifestyle and at the end of the day your body is just a reflection of your lifestyle. 

[robertthebruce]

 

 

Seems to go on my Backside ........

[puipuitom]

Two points I miss: the efficiency of the body to substract nutrients out of the foods and let less go out "via the back door"  ( onecan eat whatever he/she wants and another get fat of much less)

The same in using energy for movements of the body. Some move more muscles to get the same done as another ( has to do with hormons and thyroid gland)

 

But yes.. ( very big part of ) loosing weight = eat less  +  move more

[robblok]

2 hours ago, puipuitom said:

Two points I miss: the efficiency of the body to substract nutrients out of the foods and let less go out "via the back door"  ( onecan eat whatever he/she wants and another get fat of much less)

The same in using energy for movements of the body. Some move more muscles to get the same done as another ( has to do with hormons and thyroid gland)

 

But yes.. ( very big part of ) loosing weight = eat less  +  move more

Sure.. there are differences between people .. but it accounts for less then you should think around 15-20% (still a lot) But in general eveyone can improve on their current status (unless they are working out a lot already and watching their food). But obese and overweight people can by eating better and less and exercising more change a lot. They won't get as lean as those who have a fast acting thyroid would get if they do the same thing but they can reach normal weight.

[UniqueWord]

Read it, and weep at the myths, popular beliefs, and sometimes outright lies that have been promulgated and perpetuated by such august bodies as the AHA, AMA, in concert with Big Food, Big Pharma, and in some cases unwittingly, popular US political figures in the last 3-4 decades.  There's some revealing insights into how the medical profession can behave when things don't turn out quite the way they would prefer.  Classic denial at its best.
I heard the first murmurings of these truths in 1975 in England, but the zero-carb approach proved too economically difficult on a student budget.  Plus, there was the siren call of the pub, which proved impossible to ignore in a land well known for beer in vast quantities!
But these rumours were without scientific substance, and with an engineering discipline I was too enthralled by the simplicity of the caloric equation.   Little thought was given then to the complexity of the biological systems that control the human body, developed and refined over hundreds of millions of years of evolution.  As a species we have an amazing arrogance in thinking we know what makes us work.
Just in case you want to know more than you think you know...
Cheers, UW.

[Shiver]

14 hours ago, puipuitom said:

Two points I miss: the efficiency of the body to substract nutrients out of the foods and let less go out "via the back door"  ( onecan eat whatever he/she wants and another get fat of much less)

The same in using energy for movements of the body. Some move more muscles to get the same done as another ( has to do with hormons and thyroid gland)

 

But yes.. ( very big part of ) loosing weight = eat less  +  move more

 

Whilst I wouldn't dispute the "eat less and move more" idea, I think it is hugely over simplifying things.  What if you have more muscle mass?  That would increase basal metabolic requirements.  Our addiction to sugar is no help, and he did broadly sweep past the ketones idea, and I really think he should have delved into that a little more.  The muscles will respond to stimulus to reflect what is being asked of them.  Cardio is good for, well, good for cardio.  Resistance would focus more on slow twitch muscles.  If you're a Triathlon type person then you'd have a mix of both rather than the ultimate marathon runner or the ultimate weight lifter, but however you fine tune it, eating I would call the 80% of the 80/20 rule.  Dieting (the lower calorie definition) is a dangerous game because you're lying to your body telling it there is no food available, and it will do all that it can to rebuild reserves and slow down your energy burn to build the 'energy bank' back up at every opportunity (like the people who say they only have to look at a slice of cake and they put on weight).

Much better would be to take on sufficient calories at all times, but choose your fuel.  Diesel isn't perfect for a petrol engine, and not all engines are the same.  There is a huge complexity to even the Krebs cycle (now more frequently called the Citric Acid cycle), along with the Grehlin/Leptin/Insulin sensitivity.  Then there's the AMPK phenomenon where you can tweak PGC-1alpha for Mitochondrial genesis, mTOR, Uncouplers etc.

Then there's brown fat and white fat.  There are ways to brown (or at least beige) the white fat (it gets it's name from the increased number of Mitochondria in a cell, which burn fuel rather than store fuel) so not even all fat is alike.

I was hoping he was going to pour that sugar into the CO2 mix and show us fat develop, but I doubt that would work.  I was prepared to suspend belief though.

I love watching the TED videos however.  If you want 10 mins out of your routine but not ready for a movie there's always something to be found there.

[tominbkk]

On 10/2/2016 at 4:52 PM, robblok said:

Real interesting.. the guy is entertaining. 

 

But he said.. eat less move more and keep breathing... Im sure that won't go down here well. 

I agree with that.  But I would add, eat less of certain things.  It will help you to control your hunger.

[tominbkk]

On 10/2/2016 at 7:25 PM, manfredtillmann said:

17:50 mins ... you need to get them out by moving more or eating less...

and with - or without all the science - that is what it all boils down to. and always has. and always will.

that's why lazy and self - indulgent people are fat.

I'm a BIG fan of exercise and moving.  But it does little for weight loss.  That's 90% diet.

[robblok]

Just now, tominbkk said:

I agree with that.  But I would add, eat less of certain things.  It will help you to control your hunger.

 

In the end its all about eating less.. but it certainly helps to cut out certain things.. like processed foods. How much carbs.. that again is a personal preference. 

 

But cutting out processed foods and most sugar would help a lot. 

[tominbkk]

On 10/3/2016 at 11:06 AM, damo said:

I see overweight men in my gym work hard and are still overweight. Not understanding the mechanics is part of the reason. The same men also walk past all the cardio equipment as they make their way into the weights room. Go figure, the basic elements are not eating less and moving more, its eating right and exercising smart. Big difference.

The best cardio is about 30-40 minutes getting your heart rate up to a point where you can still talk but you are breathing hard.  That's the fat burn zone.  They also say after about 20 minutes you have reached your peak level, anything after that is for toning or fun. Weights also help you lose weight, building muscle burns more calories overall.

[robblok]

1 minute ago, tominbkk said:

I'm a BIG fan of exercise and moving.  But it does little for weight loss.  That's 90% diet.

Tom,

 

I think you are a bit mistaken.. yes if you count how much you burn its not much.. but it helps against insulin resistance and if your response to insulin is good you will see a lot of improvements.  But if you look at it only caloric wise.. yes 90% diet. But since I added 4 35 minutes rows on the concept rower after my normal workouts without changing too much in food I started getting leaner. It all works together. But to get real benefits from exercise you should do a lot of it. 

[robblok]

3 minutes ago, tominbkk said:

The best cardio is about 30-40 minutes getting your heart rate up to a point where you can still talk but you are breathing hard.  That's the fat burn zone.  They also say after about 20 minutes you have reached your peak level, anything after that is for toning or fun. Weights also help you lose weight, building muscle burns more calories overall.

Fat burning zone is a myth.. just look it up basically if you keep your heartrate so low you dont burn much calories.. now if you increase effort your heartrate will go up and how much calories you burn. But your percentage fat will go down but overall you still burn more fat. (plus the extra calories that are not fat need to be replenished too) So the moment you eat some carbs they go into those muscles for energy.. not fat.. so its a bit of a strange story the fat burning myth. 

 

Also if you do cardio after lifting (and you have lifted heavy) all energy stores are gone already.. only fat can be burned.

[damo]

Yeah, the fat burn zone is a sort of myth. I like to run 5km in less than 30 min, with my heart rate between 150 and 160 bpm. In that zone I can develop my cardio vascular endurance of basically make myself fitter. I only run on a treadmill and consistently at 1% incline. If I exceed 160 bpm in decrease the speed and conversely if my heart rate is less that 150 bpm then I increase the pace. My times to complete 5km slightly vary from run to run but as long as I keep it under 30 min then I am happy. I feel thats a good benchmark / standard. If you can't achieve 30min then training in the right zone with consistency will see your CV strength increase and your tim decrease. 

 

30 mins at a time is a good amount, I could do much more but then I wouldn't be back on the treadmill again whenever I choose.

[madusa]

Have you seen a fat yogi in India? why are they thin and they eat a lot of Ghee (fat from cow). Yes, they actually eat them with their foods. They never never count calories or lift any weight, well, there is no dumb bells or any weights for them to lift even if they had wanted to.

I think their bodies look beautiful at their age (around 50 to 70 most of them).  They don't suffer from arthritis otherwise they couldn't possibly bend and twist they way they do. So, do yoga not weight training.

[robblok]

10 hours ago, damo said:

Yeah, the fat burn zone is a sort of myth. I like to run 5km in less than 30 min, with my heart rate between 150 and 160 bpm. In that zone I can develop my cardio vascular endurance of basically make myself fitter. I only run on a treadmill and consistently at 1% incline. If I exceed 160 bpm in decrease the speed and conversely if my heart rate is less that 150 bpm then I increase the pace. My times to complete 5km slightly vary from run to run but as long as I keep it under 30 min then I am happy. I feel thats a good benchmark / standard. If you can't achieve 30min then training in the right zone with consistency will see your CV strength increase and your tim decrease. 

 

30 mins at a time is a good amount, I could do much more but then I wouldn't be back on the treadmill again whenever I choose.

 

 

I got exactly the same feeling for rowing.. I do a 35 minute row after my lifting sessions (since 2 1/2 month now). I found that 35 is the max.. i can do more.. but it would put me off from the rowing. Now I just need to keep it up.. that is the plan at least. I never liked cardio much but the benefits I am seeing now are convincing me to keep doing it. I am not talking fat loss per se.. but stamina and CV fitness.  It did add a lot of time to my workouts (setting up the rower with the program.. getting and then adding some extra ventilators) But its all worth it. 

[robblok]

9 hours ago, madusa said:

Have you seen a fat yogi in India? why are they thin and they eat a lot of Ghee (fat from cow). Yes, they actually eat them with their foods. They never never count calories or lift any weight, well, there is no dumb bells or any weights for them to lift even if they had wanted to.

I think their bodies look beautiful at their age (around 50 to 70 most of them).  They don't suffer from arthritis otherwise they couldn't possibly bend and twist they way they do. So, do yoga not weight training.

 

These guys are fasting a lot.. its mainly diet not their exercise.. you don't get that much benefits for either your CV system as muscular system from Yoga. But its at least better than nothing. 

[singa-traz]

27 minutes ago, robblok said:

 

 

I got exactly the same feeling for rowing.. I do a 35 minute row after my lifting sessions (since 2 1/2 month now). I found that 35 is the max.. i can do more.. but it would put me off from the rowing. Now I just need to keep it up.. that is the plan at least. I never liked cardio much but the benefits I am seeing now are convincing me to keep doing it. I am not talking fat loss per se.. but stamina and CV fitness.  It did add a lot of time to my workouts (setting up the rower with the program.. getting and then adding some extra ventilators) But its all worth it. 

 

The question is not really HIIT versus Low Intensity, it's more what percentage of your training/exercice should be in Hi or Low intensity.

 

For runners, you will typically look at the 80/20 rules. 80% being in low intensity.

 

Running above 80% of your Max FC everyday for 30 min does not offer the right balance of intensity for your body to continue making progress.

 

But HIIT looks cooler than doing a slow jog :-)

[robblok]

4 minutes ago, singa-traz said:

 

The question is not really HIIT versus Low Intensity, it's more what percentage of your training/exercice should be in Hi or Low intensity.

 

For runners, you will typically look at the 80/20 rules. 80% being in low intensity.

 

Running above 80% of your Max FC everyday for 30 min does not offer the right balance of intensity for your body to continue making progress.

 

But HIIT looks cooler than doing a slow jog :-)

 

My rowing is not HIIT .. I would be dead by now 4 days a week HIIT after a hard weightlifting workout.  No way my body would be able to cope with HIIT as an addition to my heavy lifting sessions. So i just row hard but not HIIT.  I also believe its crazy to do HIIT 4 days a week and 35 min.. far to long for HIIT.

 

But still making progress so obviously doing it ok. Though progress is not an unlimited variable sooner or later we hit a wall.. otherwise running the 100 meters in 8 seconds would be possible. 

[moe666]

You really do not burn fat, as you eat less or make changes in diet to lose weight all fat cells do is shrink.your number of fat cells are usually determined at a young age

[robblok]

43 minutes ago, moe666 said:

You really do not burn fat, as you eat less or make changes in diet to lose weight all fat cells do is shrink.your number of fat cells are usually determined at a young age

You do burn the fat inside these cells they just shrink but the number of cells never changes (unless you eat too much you can gain or liposuction you can lose). But just shrinking is good .. and you are burning the fat inside those cells. Just see the cells as storage devices with fat inside. 

[damo]

HIIT has its place in fat loss, but so does consistency and avoiding injury. If you wan't to effectively train using HIIT you need to be able to track you heart rate. We all know our bodies benefit in various ways dependant on the percentage of our maximum heart rate we train at. What you want to achieve will determine where you want to train. I don't care for boxing or martial arts where fast response muscle fibres need to be developed and I don't want to spend time on the treadmill to loose fat only to forgo developing fitness. HIIT is and efficient way of fat loss although can come at the cost of developing capacity and strength. 

 

 

[tropo]

On 10/3/2016 at 11:06 AM, damo said:

I see overweight men in my gym work hard and are still overweight. Not understanding the mechanics is part of the reason. The same men also walk past all the cardio equipment as they make their way into the weights room. Go figure, the basic elements are not eating less and moving more, its eating right and exercising smart. Big difference.

It's easy enough to write "exercising smart", but what is smart exercising? We could debate that topic for years and never come up with a consensus.

 

People are looking for an easy option, and IMO there is no easy way to burn fat by exercising. It's hard work! It requires determination, dedication and smart exercise choices, whatever they may be.

 

I could tell you my version of "smart exercising", but you may not agree. 

 

 

[tropo]

On 10/4/2016 at 9:47 PM, tominbkk said:

I'm a BIG fan of exercise and moving.  But it does little for weight loss.  That's 90% diet.

I'm really getting tired of this mantra - "diet does little for weight loss (fat loss)"

 

It does more for fat loss than anything else. It's the only way to reasonably sustain a fat loss once it has been lost as it normalizes your hormonal systems and makes you a more efficient fat burner. For example, anyone with insulin resistance will get a huge kick from exercise, which will help the body to burn fat. You can fix insulin resistance just by exercise alone with no diet adjustment. Add some diet adjustments and you're on a winner.

 

Yoyo'ing is the result for people who think exercise isn't important. Their fat content is directly proportional to what they eat. It's not like that if you're fit and exercise regularly. Sedentary lifestyles are killers - you'll get old fast.

[tropo]

On 10/4/2016 at 10:05 PM, damo said:

Yeah, the fat burn zone is a sort of myth. I like to run 5km in less than 30 min, with my heart rate between 150 and 160 bpm. In that zone I can develop my cardio vascular endurance of basically make myself fitter. I only run on a treadmill and consistently at 1% incline. If I exceed 160 bpm in decrease the speed and conversely if my heart rate is less that 150 bpm then I increase the pace. My times to complete 5km slightly vary from run to run but as long as I keep it under 30 min then I am happy. I feel thats a good benchmark / standard. If you can't achieve 30min then training in the right zone with consistency will see your CV strength increase and your tim decrease. 

 

30 mins at a time is a good amount, I could do much more but then I wouldn't be back on the treadmill again whenever I choose.

What is your age? 150 - 160  bpm doesn't mean much unless we know your maximum heart rate. My maximum through trial is 177 bpm which is 14 over the maximum theoretical number for my age worked out by the 220 minus age equation.

 

I always exercise with a heart rate monitor, but I don't do steady state high heart rate training like you do. (assuming you're old and 150/160 is high LOL). I push it up near max for a limited time, then bring it down again. A modified HIIT style of training. I use all the zones from 120's to 170's, averaging around 130 - 140.