Help for Dutch/Amsterdam citizen

[rocketmankabin1]

I'm trying to get info from someone familiar with the Netherlands.  I have a dutch guy here who is at rock bottom.  Usual story.  Woman took him for everything.  Bought property and chicken farm not in his name, got taken.  Went from 10 million baht to 25 baht a day overnight.    He just broke his leg.  No insurance, no lady to help him at home.  Lives out in the middle of nowhere.  I told him I would help him get home.  He says he has no family there and couldn't get a job at his age. He's 50.   And says he needs a house registration in Netherlands in order to get a job.  Says no one would hire a 50 year old.  I asked about being a member of the EU and couldn't he find work outside of Netherlands?  Truck driver or something to start over.   He claims the polish can get those jobs much cheaper so no one would hire him.  Sounds like he's continually making excuses and refuses to leave.  Does anyone know if any of his claims are true?  Wouldn't he get welfare/disability if he went back?  Even if he had no family, could he not get some kind of help over there vs. starving here?

 

 

[brianinbangkok]

Pretty much depends on his education. If he has degree in something technical he can find a job in Netherlands. Without this it will be hard indeed. The house registration story to get a job is not true.Most of the EU immigrants are not registered in NL. Truck driver requires a lot of papers in NL its not just start driving like in TH.

[Xircal]

What he says is correct unfortunately. He does indeed need to be registered with the municipality where he proposes to live and in order to do that he has to be living somewhere other than in a hotel or hostel.

 

A room would do, but Amsterdam is a University city and rooms are usually let to students. Since squatting has now been made illegal, he doesn't have that option anymore either.

 

Although he qualifies for subsidised housing, the current waiting list is 17 years and he'd be starting at the bottom of the ladder.

 

Also, since he left the Netherlands more then six months ago he's effectively classed as an alien himself. This rule applies to every country incidentally, not just the Netherlands.

 

It's a similar story with the welfare system. He can live in Thailand and still receive a pension, but he won't qualify for that until he's 67 years old. Any other form of welfare is out of the question and only applies to those living in the Netherlands.

 

Unfortunately, since he once had assets of around €250,000 (10 million baht) it's highly unlikely that he would qualify for any form of welfare even if he were to return to the Netherlands. The Dutch don't take kindly to someone who was once reasonably well off signing on the dole and expecting to get paid.

 

I guess he now fits the bill of an overstayer since he isn't earning enough to qualify for a residence permit.

 

In the circumstances his best bet would be to consider becoming a monk and then stick it out until he qualifies for his pension.

 

See this thread on the forum:

 

 

[brianinbangkok]

He does not have to be registed to get a job in NL.
I know for sure as I have done this in NL myself a couple of years ago.
And so have thousands of others from all over the EU.
Finding a job in NL will be a lot easier for him then finding one in TH.
Finding a house is indeed a problem for lower income workers.

[Jdietz]

1. Contact Dutch Embassy in Soi Ton Son

Adres	15 Soi Ton Son Lumphini, Pathumwan Bangkok 10330 Thailand
Telefoon	+66 2 309 52 00 24 uur per dag, 7 dagen per week bereikbaar

 

If he refuses to go, it's his problem. He won't get a job with that attitude, but social services will be available, and nobody in NL will have to live without a place to stay, food to eat and a little pocket money of around THB 40.000 a month.

 

[Xircal]

1 hour ago, brianinbangkok said:

He does not have to be registed to get a job in NL.
I know for sure as I have done this in NL myself a couple of years ago.
And so have thousands of others from all over the EU.
Finding a job in NL will be a lot easier for him then finding one in TH.
Finding a house is indeed a problem for lower income workers.

 

Absolute codswallop. To get a job you have to be registered with the tax authority called the Belastingdienst. They will allocate a tax registration number (BSN) to you. To get one of those you have to be resident in the municipality. You're not considered to be resident if you reside in a hotel or a hostel.

 

If you're going to work illegally which is what you're saying, that's a different matter. But because it's illegal, you can be arrested and imprisoned since it constitutes tax evasion for which the penalty is two years imprisonment and/or a hefty Fine.

 

[Xircal]

58 minutes ago, Jdietz said:

1. Contact Dutch Embassy in Soi Ton Son

Adres	15 Soi Ton Son Lumphini, Pathumwan Bangkok 10330 Thailand
Telefoon	+66 2 309 52 00 24 uur per dag, 7 dagen per week bereikbaar

 

If he refuses to go, it's his problem. He won't get a job with that attitude, but social services will be available, and nobody in NL will have to live without a place to stay, food to eat and a little pocket money of around THB 40.000 a month.

 

 

Another ignoramus. If he's been out of the country for more than six months he first of all has to reapply to become a Dutch citizen again. It's not automatic and a number of conditions have to be fulfilled before Dutch citizenship is granted again.

 

This link is in Dutch but since you profess to know so much about the subject you shouldn't have any problem understanding it.

[Xircal]

2 hours ago, brianinbangkok said:

Pretty much depends on his education. If he has degree in something technical he can find a job in Netherlands. Without this it will be hard indeed. The house registration story to get a job is not true.Most of the EU immigrants are not registered in NL. Truck driver requires a lot of papers in NL its not just start driving like in TH.

 

Look my friend, I'm a Dutch citizen and you are obviously not. Nobody can get a job in the Netherlands unless they have a tax number (BSN). You can only get a tax number if you're registered in the municipality in which you want to live. So please, cut the BS because giving people bad advice doesn't help them at all.

[Gulfsailor]

10 minutes ago, Xircal said:

 

Another ignoramus. If he's been out of the country for more than six months he first of all has to reapply to become a Dutch citizen again. It's not automatic and a number of conditions have to be fulfilled before Dutch citizenship is granted again.

 

This link is in Dutch but since you profess to know so much about the subject you shouldn't have any problem understanding it.

 You talk about reapplying for citizenship, yet your link is about getting the Dutch nationality back. You do know the difference right?

this Dutch guy should just fly to Schiphol (borrow money from embassy) and there say hello, I'm back. They will help him find a place for the night and call around where to place him. Then it's getting an address (friends or family is fine, or if impossible a so called letter-address), with which he signs up again at the municipality. They will then reactivate his tax/service number. Then it's off to the welfare department and employment center. 

 

[brianinbangkok]

 
Absolute codswallop. To get a job you have to be registered with the tax authority called the Belastingdienst. They will allocate a tax registration number (BSN) to you. To get one of those you have to be resident in the municipality. You're not considered to be resident if you reside in a hotel or a hostel.
 
If you're going to work illegally which is what you're saying, that's a different matter. But because it's illegal, you can be arrested and imprisoned since it constitutes tax evasion for which the penalty is two years imprisonment and/or a hefty Fine.
 

No you are mistaken.

Once you have BSN you got it and it never expires.
So you/he is registered.
He still has one so he can find a job.

EU law does not require the EU members to register in NL.

You can work in NL and live in Germany or Belgium as many do.
Nothing illegal about it.
And you still pay tax in NL....

[brianinbangkok]

So he has BSN and with any luck he still has a bank account in NL.

Fly here, find a job.

Do not worry he will pay tax same as all the other EU citizens working in NL as they will reduce the tax and tge test of the ABC from his salary.

Once he has a job he can get a room somewhere.

[Gulfsailor]

Just now, brianinbangkok said:

 

No you are mistaken.

Once you have BSN you got it and it never expires.
So you/he is registered.
He still has one so he can find a job.

EU law does not require the EU members to register in NL.

You can work in NL and live in Germany or Belgium as many do.
Nothing illegal about it.
And you still pay tax in NL....

 

Difference here is that when they guy left he signed out of the Netherlands and for citizenship and tax purposes he is no longer a Dutch (or EU) citizen. The municipality will have deactivated his BSN number upon his departure.  But upon his return he can just register at any municipality (providing he can show an address) and the BSN is re activated. Then he can work or get welfare. 

[brianinbangkok]

So he has BSN and with any luck he still has a bank account in NL.
Fly here, find a job.
Do not worry he will pay tax same as all the other EU citizens working in NL as they will reduce the tax and the rest of the ABC from his salary.
Once he has a job he can get a room somewhere , and then he can register an address.

Due to Thaivisa server connection issues my post came after the previous one.

I had worked in NL for many years before I moved to TH.
So I have a BSN.
I left NL for work for about 10 years.
On return I found a job and started working. All they need to get you started is a BSN / bank account.
OP can live in Germany or Belgium the Dutch tax office does not care.
And of course he needs a place to stay. Rent a room then.

[brianinbangkok]

 
Another ignoramus. If he's been out of the country for more than six months he first of all has to reapply to become a Dutch citizen again. It's not automatic and a number of conditions have to be fulfilled before Dutch citizenship is granted again.
 
This link is in Dutch but since you profess to know so much about the subject you shouldn't have any problem understanding it.

Leaving the Netherlands does not mean he is no longer a Dutch.
Why do think that leaving would cause him to no longer be a Dutch citizen ?

[Xircal]

9 minutes ago, Gulfsailor said:

 You talk about reapplying for citizenship, yet your link is about getting the Dutch nationality back. You do know the difference right?

this Dutch guy should just fly to Schiphol (borrow money from embassy) and there say hello, I'm back. They will help him find a place for the night and call around where to place him. Then it's getting an address (friends or family is fine, or if impossible a so called letter-address), with which he signs up again at the municipality. They will then reactivate his tax/service number. Then it's off to the welfare department and employment center. 

 

 

Dutch Embassy won't lend him any money. Forget about that idea for a start.

 

He says he doesn't have any relatives in the country according to the OP.

 

Letter addresses can be blocked by the resident already living there and often are otherwise anyone registering themselves at that address will be billed for additional local taxes. It also affects how much rent subsidy a resident receives. Having just two people registered at the same address cuts the amount by 50%.

 

He will have declared his assets (the 10 million baht which is 250,000 euros) before he left the country so that will be registered in the tax authority database. Welfare has access to that. Assets are considered as income for tax purposes and welfare calculates 1,450 euros for each month as living allowance which is 17,400 euros per annum. So 250,000 / 17,400 = 14.367 years. If he's only been out of the country for say 10 years, he won't get anything from welfare because they will calculate that he still has assets worth 69,600 euros even though he's flat broke.

 

Sad to say, but if he's been out of the country for a while, he'll have a problem getting a job especially considering his age. Employers prefer young people and even 30 year olds have a problem finding another job these days.

 

I still think monkhood is his best option. He doesn't want to leave Thailand by the sound of it anyway, but he needs to address the issue of becoming an overstayer if he lacks an income now. If immigration picks him up they'll want to deport him at his own expense. Since he doesn't have any cash, he'll end up in a detention centre until he can find someone to pay the cost of his flight home. But he'll also be charged about 800 baht a day while he's there.

[Jdietz]

Nobody loses their Dutch citizenship, ever, unless you do it on purpose. Don't give completely uninformed opinions stated as facts please. As a Dutch citizen you have plenty of rights to receive social securities, no matter what you used to have.

Embassy still first stop.

 

[Xircal]

10 minutes ago, brianinbangkok said:

Leaving the Netherlands does not mean he is no longer a Dutch.
Why do think that leaving would cause him to no longer be a Dutch citizen ?
 

 

I think you might be right about that. Reading it again I can see that it probably applies to anyone who revoked their Dutch nationality for one of another country, but now wants to regain it.

[Xircal]

3 minutes ago, Jdietz said:

Nobody loses their Dutch citizenship, ever, unless you do it on purpose. Don't give completely uninformed opinions stated as facts please. As a Dutch citizen you have plenty of rights to receive social securities, no matter what you used to have.

Embassy still first stop.

 

 

Have it your own way, but don't blame me when things don't turn out as expected.

You're probably right about the nationality issue though. I misread it.

[Xircal]

1 hour ago, brianinbangkok said:

 

No you are mistaken.

 

 

 

You're quoting me out of context. Read the post I was responding to and then you'll understand why I said what I did.

[Rc2702]

Hope his leg heals ok. Where is he living currently? Does he want to go back? If not then why help? If he does could he sell any assets? Cars bikes, stuff a man acres over a lifetime?  The home he lives in, chicken farm? Sounds like he does not need a lot to live on. Is he on borrowed rime from the Mrs family where he is living?

 

His story sounds odd. Perhaps you should check into him a bit more closely and ensure he is who he says he is and if he is has no family etc so be it, but if he is not perhaps he is just ashamed of his situation and better to focus on that to begin. Good luck

 

Becoming a monk! Cannot believe a poster proposed this after all the crap about fake monks and someone proposes this.

[robblok]

No matter what the guy has to go back to the Netherlands as he wont get a new visa without any money.

 

Now you dont lose your tax nr if you stay abroad (you never do I am a Dutch tax adviser so i know)

 

His problem is indeed living somewhere because that is hard in the Netherlands also social security is a bit tricky as he needs to be registered somewhere. But there are shelters where he can go to and register there and then probably get his social security (bijstand). But its not much and it won't be fun. But I dont see many options. 

 

But an other problem is of course getting money for a ticket back to the Netherlands. I can understand the guy not wanting to go but its better for him to deal with Dutch government officials than Thai ones. Without a source of income he is toast.

[Dipterocarp]

Difference here is that when they guy left he signed out of the Netherlands and for citizenship and tax purposes he is no longer a Dutch (or EU) citizen. The municipality will have deactivated his BSN number upon his departure.  But upon his return he can just register at any municipality (providing he can show an address) and the BSN is re activated. Then he can work or get welfare. 

Signed out of the Netherlands no longer citizen? Can't be correct must be confusing the terminology. That would mean Netherlands creating stateless persons of Dutch expats, intl students and travellers. Very much against UN convention international law, as well as contitutions and laws of most countries.

[Xircal]

14 hours ago, Jdietz said:

Nobody loses their Dutch citizenship, ever, unless you do it on purpose. Don't give completely uninformed opinions stated as facts please. As a Dutch citizen you have plenty of rights to receive social securities, no matter what you used to have.

Embassy still first stop.

 

Actually you can lose your Dutch nationality if you acquire another one (you would then have dual nationality) and live outside the Netherlands for 10 years. http://archief.wereldomroep.nl/nederlands/article/u-wilt-uw-nederlandse-nationaliteit-terug-u-hebt-nog-even

 

[Xircal]

I clarified a few points.

 

The Dutch embassy won't provide funds or buy a plane ticket if a Dutch national runs into financial problems: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/reizen-in-het-buitenland/vraag-en-antwoord/kunnen-nederlandse-ambassades-of-consulaten-mij-helpen-bij-problemen-in-het-buitenland

 

Secondly, you lose your rights to a so called Uitkering which is intended to provide funds to the unemployed if you leave the country. The only exception is a pension (AOW), but they'll dock you 2% per annum for every year that you don't reside in the Netherlands. See the attachment which came from a site called emigreren.nu 

 

Thirdly, citizens are required by law (came into effect in 2006) to sign up for health insurance. Before that can be arranged the citizen has to register with the municipality in which he proposes to reside. See this health insurance site (in Dutch) for details: http://www.welkezorgverzekering.nl/terugkeer-uit-buitenland.html

 

Somebody mentioned somewhere that EU immigrants are entitled to live anywhere within the EU. That's true, but in the Netherlands they're required to apply for a residence permit. That will usually be granted provided the tenant can show a copy of the rental agreement for the accommodation where he resides and can provide evidence of sufficient funds which meet the minimum income requirements.

[lemonjelly]

He's no longer considered "a resident" of NL, he still has a tax no. ,  he'll have to find a place to live which means renting private as he's no longer in a woning bedrijf; that's expensive in NL and without an address he cannot claim bijstand or work...catch 22. .... living on the street with winter on the way won't be an option either, he's going to need help arranging things there before he arrives.

Edited October 3, 2016 by lemonjelly