May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[billd766]

7 hours ago, pitrevie said:

I think that you need to go back and read what the situation was in 1973 and how the UK was doing compared to the rest of Europe and the EEC at that time.

 

Thank you for doing my thinking for me but what you see and think is not necessarily what everybody else sees and thinks, and certainly not what I think.

 

I remember 1973 very well as it was the year that my Mum died and also the year that I was posted from the UK to Germany while in the RAF.

 

It was the year that I could have bought the 2 bedroom bungalow that our family had rented since before the war for £7,000. That was a week after my Mum died and 5 days before I flew to Germany. Had I bought it the place would have stood empty for 11 years at least.

 

1973 was also the year that you were not allowed to take more than £50 in cash out of the UK

[pitrevie]

9 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Thank you for doing my thinking for me but what you see and think is not necessarily what everybody else sees and thinks, and certainly not what I think.

 

I remember 1973 very well as it was the year that my Mum died and also the year that I was posted from the UK to Germany while in the RAF.

 

It was the year that I could have bought the 2 bedroom bungalow that our family had rented since before the war for £7,000. That was a week after my Mum died and 5 days before I flew to Germany. Had I bought it the place would have stood empty for 11 years at least.

 

1973 was also the year that you were not allowed to take more than £50 in cash out of the UK

Try harder and think what the industrial and economic situation was just prior to us joining the EEC.

Edited April 19, 2017 by pitrevie
spelling mistake

[Orac]

I agree the EU like immigration have become the whipping boys but it will be interesting to see once we are out of the EU what will replace them. Somehow all those global pressures and lack of accountability will all be solved once we take back control. No doubt our power distribution system, our railways our motor industry, utility companies will all revert back to being British. The fact is as Macmillan once observed we have sold off the family silver and it makes you wonder is there anything the British will not sell. Even a German friend of mine was amazed that we allowed Rolls Royce cars to be sold off. What was the saying when we sold Gas, Syd was going to own it but apparently that has changed to Francois or Manuel or Fritz or even Mr Wong.

The EU has got a lot of flack for problems caused by UK govt decisions and mistakes plus them not using EU rules for the benefit of the UK but rather manipulating them at times for political gain to generate a an anti EU feeling.

Particular examples are the sell off of UK industry as highlighted above. The French used EU rules to prevent the sale of Danone, a dairy company, citing EU rules allowing them to retain control in the interests of 'national security' - an avenue UK govt could have used on many occasions.

Another glaring error was the decimation of our rail/locomotive industry by insisting contracts like the new Thameslink trains went to Siemens instead of Bombardier in Derby due to EU rules and not mentioning that there was nothing in EU rules for the contract to specify trains must still be made in the UK - a huge mistake by the DfT at the time.

The sorry state of UK industry through short sighted and politically motivated machinations of past UK governments is nothing short of a tragedy and led us to where we are today and the EU have been made a convenient scapegoat in many cases.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, mommysboy said:

I've just been listening to BBC Podcast - World Business Report.  They interviewed French people at a market, who came up with the same list of complaints.  In fact it was eerily similar.  The principle complaint was higher prices, and lower income.  One commented on the growing underclass and erosion of the middle-class.

 

You could deduce the problem is the EU, but I rather think it is wealth inequality in the main, exacerbated by growing automation/digitalisation.  Youngsters have a better feel for it imo.  Older people have lived under a system they cherished and it actually worked for a while, but it is clearly now defunct, whether it be handled by socialists or capitalists.

 

You may feel leaving the EU will solve this, or indeed that Scotland leaving UK, or Shetlands leaving Scotland might solve these problems, but they won't.  The only partial solution comes by educating people to expect less, and then people will understand the need for a government with strong social welfare plans.  This will be a hard sell to English people who basically are very right wing, but ironically rather poor already.

Some bright spark needs to come up with a solution that enables the benefits of automation, robotics and AI to be shared more equitably between labour and capital. Maybe 3 day weekends for the same salary for example?

[Grouse]

https://data.oecd.org/united-kingdom.htm

 

The OECD databases are great for anyone interested in facts

 

Compare inequality and pensions between selected countries. Quite shocking to see how UK and USA rank against Germany, Netherlands and Denmark.

 

When are people going to wake up?

 

I was shocked to find UK national "insurance" drops from 12% to 2% on earnings over 45,000 per annum? Why do the better off get this 10% tax cut? Only in the U.K. ?

[billd766]

14 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Try harder and think what the industrial and economic situation was just prior to us joining the EEC.

 

You may have missed the point that I made. You think for you and I will think for me.

 

History is just that. Go back 2 or 3 hundred years and life was a lot different.

 

Life is in a constant state of change.

 

What happened last week/month/year/decade will change during the next week/month/year/decade.

 

The UK will complete Brexit in the next couple of years or so and trading conditions will be different then. Perhaps in 5 years or less/more the EU may not exist or exist in a different form.

 

Looking backwards gives people an idea of then.

 

Looking forwards is the way to go.

[pitrevie]

17 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

The EU has got a lot of flack for problems caused by UK govt decisions and mistakes plus them not using EU rules for the benefit of the UK but rather manipulating them at times for political gain to generate a an anti EU feeling.

Particular examples are the sell off of UK industry as highlighted above. The French used EU rules to prevent the sale of Danone, a dairy company, citing EU rules allowing them to retain control in the interests of 'national security' - an avenue UK govt could have used on many occasions.

Another glaring error was the decimation of our rail/locomotive industry by insisting contracts like the new Thameslink trains went to Siemens instead of Bombardier in Derby due to EU rules and not mentioning that there was nothing in EU rules for the contract to specify trains must still be made in the UK - a huge mistake by the DfT at the time.

The sorry state of UK industry through short sighted and politically motivated machinations of past UK governments is nothing short of a tragedy and led us to where we are today and the EU have been made a convenient scapegoat in many cases.

 

It was the EU that tried to save steel jobs in South Wales by proposing tariffs on cheap Chinese steel, something that was vetoed by the UK government.

[pitrevie]

Just now, billd766 said:

 

You may have missed the point that I made. You think for you and I will think for me.

 

History is just that. Go back 2 or 3 hundred years and life was a lot different.

 

Life is in a constant state of change.

 

What happened last week/month/year/decade will change during the next week/month/year/decade.

 

The UK will complete Brexit in the next couple of years or so and trading conditions will be different then. Perhaps in 5 years or less/more the EU may not exist or exist in a different form.

 

Looking backwards gives people an idea of then.

 

Looking forwards is the way to go.

I am all for looking forward but if we learn nothing from past mistakes then we are likely to repeat them. Thus far the tendency is to blame the EU for our own shortcomings and removing ourselves from the single biggest richest market on the planet will do nothing to address those shortcomings. Our energy, utilities, motor industry, transport  didn't end up foreign controlled because of the EU. We denationalised the railways only to see foreign owned state companies in control. 

I prefer Kenneth Clarke's view of Brexit,  its like disappearing down a rabbit hole and expecting to reappear in wonderland. 

[SheungWan]

32 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

You may have missed the point that I made. You think for you and I will think for me.

 

History is just that. Go back 2 or 3 hundred years and life was a lot different.

 

Life is in a constant state of change.

 

What happened last week/month/year/decade will change during the next week/month/year/decade.

 

The UK will complete Brexit in the next couple of years or so and trading conditions will be different then. Perhaps in 5 years or less/more the EU may not exist or exist in a different form.

 

Looking backwards gives people an idea of then.

 

Looking forwards is the way to go.

'Looking backwards gives people an idea of then.

Looking forwards is the way to go.'

 

One learns so much on this thread. Changed my life.

 

 

[Bluespunk]

Ready for tough talks. 

 

Yeah right. 

 

Too much of a coward to take part in tv debates during upcoming election campaign. 

 

BS artist of the highest order. 

Edited April 19, 2017 by Bluespunk

[sandyf]

8 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

Thank you for doing my thinking for me but what you see and think is not necessarily what everybody else sees and thinks, and certainly not what I think.

 

I remember 1973 very well as it was the year that my Mum died and also the year that I was posted from the UK to Germany while in the RAF.

 

It was the year that I could have bought the 2 bedroom bungalow that our family had rented since before the war for £7,000. That was a week after my Mum died and 5 days before I flew to Germany. Had I bought it the place would have stood empty for 11 years at least.

 

1973 was also the year that you were not allowed to take more than £50 in cash out of the UK

It was 1966 Bill when they imposed the £50 travel allowance.

I went out to Germany in June of 1972, That was the year that they had to declare a state of emergency in the UK, twice and unemployment topped one million.

 

Germany in 1972 - 11 Marks 40 to the pound and petrol coupons, never had it so good.

[pitrevie]

8 hours ago, sandyf said:

It was 1966 Bill when they imposed the £50 travel allowance.

I went out to Germany in June of 1972, That was the year that they had to declare a state of emergency in the UK, twice and unemployment topped one million.

 

Germany in 1972 - 11 Marks 40 to the pound and petrol coupons, never had it so good.

I recall being there in the mid seventies and at that stage the pound was being exchanged at just over 6 it fell to just over 4 a couple of years later and when Germany went into the Euro it was just over 2. The UK prior to us entering into the EEC was in dire straits power cuts etc and low productivity compared to the EEC countries.  However I cant wait to get back to those pre EEC days I wonder what excuses we will be offered then.

[SheungWan]

10 hours ago, sandyf said:

It was 1966 Bill when they imposed the £50 travel allowance.

I went out to Germany in June of 1972, That was the year that they had to declare a state of emergency in the UK, twice and unemployment topped one million.

 

Germany in 1972 - 11 Marks 40 to the pound and petrol coupons, never had it so good.

The best thing that happened in 1972 was John Betjeman being appointed the Poet Laureate, the man who subsequently saved St. Pancras. Lovely statue of him in the station today.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, pitrevie said:

I recall being there in the mid seventies and at that stage the pound was being exchanged at just over 6 it fell to just over 4 a couple of years later and when Germany went into the Euro it was just over 2. The UK prior to us entering into the EEC was in dire straits power cuts etc and low productivity compared to the EEC countries.  However I cant wait to get back to those pre EEC days I wonder what excuses we will be offered then.

Yes, we were paid at a fixed exchange rate which fortunately lagged behind the market rates. My 11.4 did not last for very long, within a few months it was down to about 8 and by the time I left in early 1975 it had dropped to just under 6.

[sandyf]

Throughout PMQs yesterday TM continually said that the conservatives had put a record amount of money into schools. Is that really an answer, if pupil numbers rise by 20% and funding rises by 10%, it may very well mean that it is a record level of funding but does not reflect reality. The whole performance avoided real issues , just promoted her version of brexit with numerous attacks on the opposition leadership.

 

They say that there is no need for TM to participate in debates as she debates with the opposition leader every week. I don't recall any recent clashes with Corbyn over brexit, the basis of her election campaign

Truth of the matter is that on a TV debate she wouldn't be as able to side step the issues as easily as she does in parliament.

 

Of course it is possible that we are all being misled and that schools are not asking parents for money, NHS is not in crisis and that social care workers are not leaving their jobs, reported as being 900 a day in the last year.

[dick dasterdly]

14 hours ago, sandyf said:

It was 1966 Bill when they imposed the £50 travel allowance.

I went out to Germany in June of 1972, That was the year that they had to declare a state of emergency in the UK, twice and unemployment topped one million.

 

Germany in 1972 - 11 Marks 40 to the pound and petrol coupons, never had it so good.

Which highlights how the ridiculous travel allowance was 50 odd years ago....

 

Employment statistics have been unworthy of consideration for decades, as every (?) government changed the way they were calculated to make them look better....

 

I'd add, that the frequent refrain (and belief by so many young voters) that 'getting rid of the EU open borders policy would make travel in Europe difficult for holidays and business trips' - is depressing in that people can be so gullible.....  Strangely, many of us have had many holidays (even the odd round the world trip covering various European and other foreign countries) without having to worry about visas....

Edited April 20, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Throughout PMQs yesterday TM continually said that the conservatives had put a record amount of money into schools. Is that really an answer, if pupil numbers rise by 20% and funding rises by 10%, it may very well mean that it is a record level of funding but does not reflect reality. The whole performance avoided real issues , just promoted her version of brexit with numerous attacks on the opposition leadership.

 

They say that there is no need for TM to participate in debates as she debates with the opposition leader every week. I don't recall any recent clashes with Corbyn over brexit, the basis of her election campaign

Truth of the matter is that on a TV debate she wouldn't be as able to side step the issues as easily as she does in parliament.

 

Of course it is possible that we are all being misled and that schools are not asking parents for money, NHS is not in crisis and that social care workers are not leaving their jobs, reported as being 900 a day in the last year.

I worked as the finance manager in a poor secondary school for more than a decade - and know that costs increased dramatically as a result of ever increasing bureaucracy - requiring ever more admin. staff....

 

When I first arrived there were three office staff and myself as the newly appointed finance person.  By the time I left, there were seven office staff and I had one full time and another part-time assistant!

 

Edit - I could go on about ridiculously expensive local authority 'recommended suppliers' etc. etc. that annoyed the hell out of me as it was such a waste of money and very difficult, even impossible to avoid - but its off topic.

Edited April 20, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[AlexRich]

7 hours ago, pitrevie said:

I recall being there in the mid seventies and at that stage the pound was being exchanged at just over 6 it fell to just over 4 a couple of years later and when Germany went into the Euro it was just over 2. The UK prior to us entering into the EEC was in dire straits power cuts etc and low productivity compared to the EEC countries.  However I cant wait to get back to those pre EEC days I wonder what excuses we will be offered then.

It'll be the fault of "remoaners" for not trying!

 

[pitrevie]

25 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I worked as the finance manager in a poor secondary school for more than a decade - and know that costs increased dramatically as a result of ever increasing bureaucracy - requiring ever more admin. staff....

 

When I first arrived there were three office staff and myself as the newly appointed finance person.  By the time I left, there were seven office staff and I had one full time and another part-time assistant!

 

Edit - I could go on about ridiculously expensive local authority 'recommended suppliers' etc. etc. that annoyed the hell out of me as it was such a waste of money and very difficult, even impossible to avoid - but its off topic.

I quite agree I am sure we could all point out waste and inefficiency  in any position. We could have a huge list of government contracts outsourced to the private sector which have been a disaster financially with hundreds of millions being written off and with nothing to show for it.  Often with the same company failing to deliver on the contract then being employed to do the job they have catastrophically failed to deliver. 

[Grouse]

6 hours ago, SheungWan said:

The best thing that happened in 1972 was John Betjeman being appointed the Poet Laureate, the man who subsequently saved St. Pancras. Lovely statue of him in the station today.

Ah! Miss Joan Hunter Dunn! How nostalgic and certainly worth a slight swerve off topic! ?

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

I worked as the finance manager in a poor secondary school for more than a decade - and know that costs increased dramatically as a result of ever increasing bureaucracy - requiring ever more admin. staff....

 

When I first arrived there were three office staff and myself as the newly appointed finance person.  By the time I left, there were seven office staff and I had one full time and another part-time assistant!

 

Edit - I could go on about ridiculously expensive local authority 'recommended suppliers' etc. etc. that annoyed the hell out of me as it was such a waste of money and very difficult, even impossible to avoid - but its off topic.

My post was about Teresa May but you would rather change direction, surprise surprise.

[Grouse]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/jaguar-land-rover-brexit-ceo-ralf-speth-effects-uk-industry-cars-a7694246.html

 

Now Land Rover is warning about hard Brexit! Do hard Brexiteers actually understand supply chains?

[Grouse]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/britain-told-to-keep-eu-laws-pwphnqxn0?CMP=TNLEmail_118918_1747298

 

Tough talking begins!

 

Imagine Europeans living in the UK ending up with better conditions that UK nationals!!

[evadgib]

The Government has today launched a public consultation on proposals for new legal powers needed for imposing and implementing sanctions once we leave the European Union.

Sanctions are an important foreign policy and national security tool. As a Permanent Member of the UN Security Council, the UK plays a central role in negotiating global sanctions to counter threats to international peace and security. Like all other UN Member States, the UK is obliged under international law to implement UN sanctions.

With limited exceptions, our current legal powers to implement sanctions flow from the European Communities Act 1972. When the UK leaves the European Union, these powers will need to be replaced. It is not possible to achieve this through the Great Repeal Bill, as preserving or freezing sanctions would not provide the powers necessary to update sanctions in response to fast moving events.

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/launch-of-public-consultation-on-sanctions-legislation

Edited April 21, 2017 by evadgib

[Grouse]

It's starting....

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39671163

 

read the comments...

[Grouse]

And so it goes

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-economy-sterling-currency-investment-cost-impact-business-financial-banks-insurance-retail-a7695486.html

 

?

 

[RuamRudy]

This doesn't look good:

 

Trump puts EU ahead of Britain in trade queue

[pitrevie]

18 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

This doesn't look good:

 

Trump puts EU ahead of Britain in trade queue

Wilbur Ross, President Donald Trump's Commerce secretary, has urged other countries to exploit the "God-given opportunity" to steal business from the U.K. This is one of the people now tasked with negotiating that trade deal.

[dick dasterdly]

12 hours ago, Grouse said:

It's starting....

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-39671163

 

read the comments...

Seems a stupid thing to say with a general election coming up!

 

Is he a fanatical remainer, and so prepared to throw his party under the bus in support of the remain cause?

 

Genuine question as I can see no reason why a top politician would talk about increasing taxes shortly before a general election.

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Seems a stupid thing to say with a general election coming up!

 

Is he a fanatical remainer, and so prepared to throw his party under the bus in support of the remain cause?

 

Genuine question as I can see no reason why a top politician would talk about increasing taxes shortly before a general election.

To give himself room for manoeuvre following the NIC debacle. He will need it ?