May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Khun Han]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

 

It is true that the UK was in a sorry state, economically, in the early 1970's. But "crap" before joining must be a relative term. Please remember that the UK joined something called the EEC and not the EU! One of the E's represented the word "Economic" and there was no U (for Union) included at the time. 

 

Despite losing WW2, Germany was massively assisted, by the west, with its rebuilding and modernization via the Marshall Plan. So Germany was rebuilding apace while the Britain was in huge debt, with low growth after the war. Traditionally after a war, a victor like the UK would have previously benefited, at least financially, after winning, but the new trend of benevolence reversed that trend. So, after German industry was bombed to bits it was all replaced with the newest and latest stuff, methods, techniques with new plant and equipment.

 

After reunification, the (West) German government spent trillions to stitch the country back together again. Now, Germany is spending huge amounts to save the Euro and the European Union. This will ultimately reduce Germany's economic power so much that it may soon be unable to financially to prop up the EU with bailouts, if those of significant size become necessary. The Italian economy is ten times the size of the Greek one! Just saying.

 

But the above comment will probably fall on deaf remainears! 

 

The UK was in a sorry state by the mid-1970s because of a combination of antiquated (sp antequated?) and inefficient industry dominating our economic output, and trades union militancy which had gone ballistic. The (rather bouncy) recovery from these malaises was nothing to do with Europe, and everything to do with the Thatcher governments. And we would have been in much the same situation (IMO a better one) if we'd chosen to trade independently in the world. Putting most of our eggs in the European basket was the easy, lazy option. And we'd be in an even better position (pretty-much on a par with Germany) if the Thatcher governments had got our heavy industries up to speed, instead of trashing most of them.

[sandyf]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Well ... only once the £85 bn is paid!

 

 

That is a side issue. The UK will never be free of the EU because it doesn't want to be. Forever more there will be a relationship between the UK and EU it is only a question of on whose terms that relationship is based.

I think that there is a clue in that the negotiations are based on the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union.

[vogie]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

You certainly imply in your post that following the war, the Germans benefitted from the Marshall plan where as we did not. As I posted, we received far more than the Germans.

 

As far as having to repay America is that the fault of the EU? Let's put it down to the "special relationship"!

Do you ever have anything possitive to say about the UK grouse, you seem to very happy to deride your country of birth and extol the virtues of other nations?

Sometimes your posts can be a little contradictory, you say you dislike Corbyn but love the unions, wasn't it the unions that helped Corbyn into power just to suit their selfish means. Britain has suffered greatly through the unions trying to run the asylum. It was great that we had a strong leader in Mrs Thatcher to allow the managers to manage. German unions are run totally different to ours, so a comparison would not be possible.

 

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

The UK was in a sorry state by the mid-1970s because of a combination of antiquated (sp antequated?) and inefficient industry dominating our economic output, and trades union militancy which had gone ballistic. The (rather bouncy) recovery from these malaises was nothing to do with Europe, and everything to do with the Thatcher governments. And we would have been in much the same situation (IMO a better one) if we'd chosen to trade independently in the world. Putting most of our eggs in the European basket was the easy, lazy option. And we'd be in an even better position (pretty-much on a par with Germany) if the Thatcher governments had got our heavy industries up to speed, instead of trashing most of them.

Thatcher was at the wheel during the period when manufacturing fell from 25% of GDP to 10%. This was down to slavishly from lowing monetarist dogma. Germany has VERY powerful unions. For the last decade, even the Cons are saying we need a more balanced economy. 

 

NEXT!

[Flustered]

5 hours ago, Naam said:

 Brits seem to have difficulties to realise that the British Empire is a thing of the past, that Brittania does not rule the seas anymore and that it's over being addressed in various parts of the world as Sahib, Bwana or N'kosi.

 

 

I do not recall any pro Brexiteer wanting to go back to the days of the British Empire. Perhaps you could link us tho where it was written or is it just a figment of your imagination?

 

Today, Britain wants to be independent and not being controlled by dictators from Brussels who are acting more in line with several historic characters.

 

Why you want to put the future of your country in the hands of people who think and say the English is irrelevant in Europe today despite the fact that it is the common trade language. They have hated the British for hundreds of years because we stand up for democracy, not give in to dictators.

 

Do you not understand that probably the main reason fro leaving the EU was because of the anti-British attitude of the Brussels dictators club? On our own within the EU we could do nothing about it as Blair and Brown had given away our powers.Outside of it, we are our own masters and not a second class citizen of a Federal Europe.

[dick dasterdly]

3 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

Well ... only once the £85 bn is paid!

 

 

I'm losing track - its 85 bn now?

 

Or is that the conversion rate of euro to sterling?

[mommysboy]

11 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

It's a fact that seems to fall on the deaf ears of the Brexiteers ... the UK has done well within the EU, it was doing crap outside it before joining. 

 

It is an absolute fact.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

47 minutes ago, Grouse said:

And another thing. While we await the result of the French presidential elections, let's look at pensions.

 

Now I know that those who have been supported by the tax payer (teachers, police, military, heath workers etc) have reasonable pensions, many others do not

 

https://www.compareyourcountry.org/pensions

 

Why do Europeans have substantially more generous pensions than the U.K.? 

 

Is it the fault of the EU or our own fault?

 

Be careful what you wish for Brexiteers! ?

Entirely off topic, but I'd respond by pointing out that my main private company pension was FAR more generous than that afforded to teachers and other (ordinary) public sector workers!

 

Obviously times have changed, and some prefer to blame ordinary public sector workers who are largely (?) financing their own pensions - rather than hugely profitable 'big business' who have rid themselves of their pension schemes, to enhance their own profits.

 

I agree entirely that the UK government did nothing to stop them, and even encouraged the change.

[sandyf]

16 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

The UK was in a sorry state by the mid-1970s because of a combination of antiquated (sp antequated?) and inefficient industry dominating our economic output, and trades union militancy which had gone ballistic. The (rather bouncy) recovery from these malaises was nothing to do with Europe, and everything to do with the Thatcher governments. And we would have been in much the same situation (IMO a better one) if we'd chosen to trade independently in the world. Putting most of our eggs in the European basket was the easy, lazy option. And we'd be in an even better position (pretty-much on a par with Germany) if the Thatcher governments had got our heavy industries up to speed, instead of trashing most of them.

" if the Thatcher governments had got our heavy industries up to speed,"  That's another gem.

 

In 1985 I visited the coal mines in South Africa. King Arthur had portrayed this image of hundreds of natives chipping away at the black stuff underground. Nothing could have been further from the truth, it was all automated. The port at Richards Bay dispatched more coal in a day than the UK in a year. Trains about a mile long would come in from the Transvaal and the whole carriage was rotated so the coal fell into a huge pit and was loaded directly onto ships, not a human in sight.

UK industry went downhill because no one was prepared to give up jobs to automation. Shortsighted views meant the UK ended up buying automation rather than creating it.

Anyone who thinks that brexit will protect the future should look to the past.

[Flustered]

12 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

It's a fact that seems to fall on the deaf ears of the Brexiteers ... the UK has done well within the EU, it was doing crap outside it before joining. 

 

9 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

It is an absolute fact.

 

 

Now what happened in the years our balance of trade went south?

 

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/balance-of-trade

[Naam]

10 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

12 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

It's a fact that seems to fall on the deaf ears of the Brexiteers ... the UK has done well within the EU, it was doing crap outside it before joining. 

 

It is an absolute fact.

but according to a resident eggsburt Brits suffered being second class citizens under the yoke of the dictators in Brussels. 

[mommysboy]

24 minutes ago, Flustered said:

I do not recall any pro Brexiteer wanting to go back to the days of the British Empire. Perhaps you could link us tho where it was written or is it just a figment of your imagination?

 

Today, Britain wants to be independent and not being controlled by dictators from Brussels who are acting more in line with several historic characters.

 

Why you want to put the future of your country in the hands of people who think and say the English is irrelevant in Europe today despite the fact that it is the common trade language. They have hated the British for hundreds of years because we stand up for democracy, not give in to dictators.

 

Do you not understand that probably the main reason fro leaving the EU was because of the anti-British attitude of the Brussels dictators club? On our own within the EU we could do nothing about it as Blair and Brown had given away our powers.Outside of it, we are our own masters and not a second class citizen of a Federal Europe.

 

Yes, as a Brit I dont want to be controlled by dictators..... inside my own nation either.  The rise of the hard right inside the Tory party is more extreme than anything the EU can offer.

 

The Tories on this board- many who might be considered hard right- rant and rave against just about anything past and present they consider to be extreme, whilst being utterly oblivious to the size and darkness in their own shadow.

[dick dasterdly]

23 minutes ago, vogie said:

Do you ever have anything possitive to say about the UK grouse, you seem to very happy to deride your country of birth and extol the virtues of other nations?

Sometimes your posts can be a little contradictory, you say you dislike Corbyn but love the unions, wasn't it the unions that helped Corbyn into power just to suit their selfish means. Britain has suffered greatly through the unions trying to run the asylum. It was great that we had a strong leader in Mrs Thatcher to allow the managers to manage. German unions are run totally different to ours, so a comparison would not be possible.

 

Disagree entirely with the last two sentences of your post.

 

Clearly the unions were out of control and needed to be brought back to 'brass tacks' - i.e. look after your members' interests rather than pursuing a political path and 'power'.

 

As far as I can see the German unions have pursued a far better path - that has proven to be far more beneficial for their members.

[dick dasterdly]

7 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Yes, as a Brit I dont want to be controlled by dictators..... inside my own nation either.  The rise of the hard right inside the Tory party is more extreme than anything the EU can offer.

 

The Tories on this board- many who might be considered hard right- rant and rave against just about anything past and present they consider to be extreme, whilst being utterly oblivious to the size and darkness in their own shadow.

Not sure about the rise of the 'hard right' within the tory party as I'm not convinced May is 'hard right'?

[Grouse]

48 minutes ago, vogie said:

Do you ever have anything possitive to say about the UK grouse, you seem to very happy to deride your country of birth and extol the virtues of other nations?

Sometimes your posts can be a little contradictory, you say you dislike Corbyn but love the unions, wasn't it the unions that helped Corbyn into power just to suit their selfish means. Britain has suffered greatly through the unions trying to run the asylum. It was great that we had a strong leader in Mrs Thatcher to allow the managers to manage. German unions are run totally different to ours, so a comparison would not be possible.

 

As so often, Vogie, we have the seeds of agreement! I believe in strong unions for the benefit of companies; that is owners, directors and employees. Optimal solutions are usually beneficial to owners and workers alike. The polarisation of unions and management is so passé. We are behind the curve.

 

I think the EU has been slow to accept good practice and has been dragged down by arcane management practice and lack of investment. American style short termism and the blind pursuit of shareholder value has hollowed out much of our industry. 

 

I dont believe in unions funding politicians and I also dislike business funding politicians. A better method is to have central funding for political parties and limit personal contributions to, say GBP 10,000.

 

What's good about UK?

 

1) Longest continuous democracy in the world

 

2) Rule of law

 

3) Excellent Police

 

4) Professionalism of armed forces

 

5) Mutual ( building ) societies 

 

6) High quality public housing

 

7) Real pubs

 

8) Real Beer

 

9) Architecture

 

10) National Parks

 

11) Music ( pop, rock, classical, jazz, operetta )

 

12) World Class universities (Russel Group)

 

13) Research

 

14) Land Rover

 

15) Scotch Whisky

 

16) Yorkshire pudding

 

16) Cricket

 

17) Diplomacy

 

18) Humour

 

19) Richness of English

 

20) John Le Carre

 

Ok, that's 20. Plenty of others....

 

20 dislikes anyone? ?

[Flustered]

19 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Yes, as a Brit I dont want to be controlled by dictators..... inside my own nation either.  The rise of the hard right inside the Tory party is more extreme than anything the EU can offer.

 

The Tories on this board- many who might be considered hard right- rant and rave against just about anything past and present they consider to be extreme, whilst being utterly oblivious to the size and darkness in their own shadow.

What absolute cr*p.

 

You have the right to vote. It's called democracy. You and the other eligible voters decide on what type of government you want.

 

Under the EU, you have no say at all in what happens. Unelected and unaccountable Eurocrats decide what they want to suck out of the British economy and how it should be spent. They even tell us how to spend out own rebate money.

 

Hard Tory right? What sort of fantasy world are you living in. The majority of the UK are in favour of a Tory government so who are you to override democracy? Sorry, I forgot, lefties do not see democracy in the same way as normal people. We have had left leaning governments but accepted them as part of out democratic freedom and as soon as the wish of the country moves to the right, you complain.

 

Over the next year or so you are going to be very happy that we have a Government and PM who want the best for the UK and not for some European Socialist Republic.If you like Europe so much and hate the UK so much, move over there, we won't miss you.

[Grouse]

43 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Entirely off topic, but I'd respond by pointing out that my main private company pension was FAR more generous than that afforded to teachers and other (ordinary) public sector workers!

 

Obviously times have changed, and some prefer to blame ordinary public sector workers who are largely (?) financing their own pensions - rather than hugely profitable 'big business' who have rid themselves of their pension schemes, to enhance their own profits.

 

I agree entirely that the UK government did nothing to stop them, and even encouraged the change.

Much of what you say is correct. BUT, it's not off topic. The poor pensions in the UK is government policy. Other EU countries are far better off. Maybe you like the American (winner takes all) way of doing things? I find social justice leads to happier societies. Don't worry, Brexiteers (and Trumpeteers) are in the majority. Just don't expect me to agree with you. I don't want. UK of gated communities and an armed militia 

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, Flustered said:

What absolute cr*p.

 

You have the right to vote. It's called democracy. You and the other eligible voters decide on what type of government you want.

 

Under the EU, you have no say at all in what happens. Unelected and unaccountable Eurocrats decide what they want to suck out of the British economy and how it should be spent. They even tell us how to spend out own rebate money.

 

Hard Tory right? What sort of fantasy world are you living in. The majority of the UK are in favour of a Tory government so who are you to override democracy? Sorry, I forgot, lefties do not see democracy in the same way as normal people. We have had left leaning governments but accepted them as part of out democratic freedom and as soon as the wish of the country moves to the right, you complain.

 

Over the next year or so you are going to be very happy that we have a Government and PM who want the best for the UK and not for some European Socialist Republic.If you like Europe so much and hate the UK so much, move over there, we won't miss you.

A perfect example of a Tory rant, from a hard right poster, who somehow sees himself as a moderate.

 

 

[Flustered]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

A perfect example of a Tory rant, from a hard right poster, who somehow sees himself as a moderate.

 

 

I have never claimed to be moderate.

 

As usual, left leaning posters putting words in people mouths. Spin, spin, spin.

 

You must really hate being British, why not become European if it's so great there?

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, Flustered said:

What absolute cr*p.

 

You have the right to vote. It's called democracy. You and the other eligible voters decide on what type of government you want.

 

Under the EU, you have no say at all in what happens. Unelected and unaccountable Eurocrats decide what they want to suck out of the British economy and how it should be spent. They even tell us how to spend out own rebate money.

 

Hard Tory right? What sort of fantasy world are you living in. The majority of the UK are in favour of a Tory government so who are you to override democracy? Sorry, I forgot, lefties do not see democracy in the same way as normal people. We have had left leaning governments but accepted them as part of out democratic freedom and as soon as the wish of the country moves to the right, you complain.

 

Over the next year or so you are going to be very happy that we have a Government and PM who want the best for the UK and not for some European Socialist Republic.If you like Europe so much and hate the UK so much, move over there, we won't miss you.

Sorry but you really do not understand. I don't know if you do not have access to the facts, the history, or fail to understand them? You clearly do not understand how the EU works.

 

Now here's the thing, democracy only works if the electorate are universally well informed. I don't believe that in the UK they are.

 

Just because there is an electoral majority does not mean they are correct. The minority may well be correct and yet have to live with the results.

 

Do TRY and understand the point of view of others. I do.

[Flustered]

44 minutes ago, Naam said:

but according to a resident eggsburt Brits suffered being second class citizens under the yoke of the dictators in Brussels. 

But you cannot explain how doing better equates to a downwards trend in balance of payments on joining the EU?

 

Oh, of course, we just borrow more to fund a socialist utopia.

[Flustered]

10 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Sorry but you really do not understand. I don't know if you do not have access to the facts, the history, or fail to understand them? You clearly do not understand how the EU works.

 

Now here's the thing, democracy only works if the electorate are universally well informed. I don't believe that in the UK they are.

 

Just because there is an electoral majority does not mean they are correct. The minority may well be correct and yet have to live with the results.

 

Do TRY and understand the point of view of others. I do.

First. As most lefties, you continually insult the electorate and when they have a view opposite to yours, they are "uninformed".

 

Of course a minority has to live with the results.....that's called Democracy. we have lived with socialist governments, conservative governments, coalition governments (thankfully no SNP governments).

 

Normal people accept the result of an election knowing that in a number of years they can vote again but for some unfathomable reason, left leaning people never accept this and always think theirs is the only opinion that matters. I did not vote for Harold Wilson, James Callaghan, Tony Blair or Gordon Brown but accepted that these were the PMs of the Government of the day elected by the British public (except Brown0.

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Entirely off topic, but I'd respond by pointing out that my main private company pension was FAR more generous than that afforded to teachers and other (ordinary) public sector workers!

 

Obviously times have changed, and some prefer to blame ordinary public sector workers who are largely (?) financing their own pensions - rather than hugely profitable 'big business' who have rid themselves of their pension schemes, to enhance their own profits.

 

I agree entirely that the UK government did nothing to stop them, and even encouraged the change.

 

31 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Much of what you say is correct. BUT, it's not off topic. The poor pensions in the UK is government policy. Other EU countries are far better off. Maybe you like the American (winner takes all) way of doing things? I find social justice leads to happier societies. Don't worry, Brexiteers (and Trumpeteers) are in the majority. Just don't expect me to agree with you. I don't want. UK of gated communities and an armed militia 

"Maybe you like the American (winner takes all) way of doing things?"

 

Why on earth do you insist on coming out with this sort of rubbish??!  There was nothing in my post to indicate anything of the sort....  In fact my post indicated the opposite.

 

And the rest of your post continues in the same way - attributing imagined beliefs to those that have the audacity to disagree with you!

 

And, (FWIW ) I was predicting gated communities three or four decades ago - about the time you were supporting Thatcher!  You're self-proclaimed excellent education obviously paid off extremely well ....

[mommysboy]

45 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Not sure about the rise of the 'hard right' within the tory party as I'm not convinced May is 'hard right'?

 

I did not say she was.  I was referring to the hard right. 

 

It'll be May that wins the election on a unity platform that emphasises fairness.... and then the far right will seek to force its own unmandated agenda, just as it did with every Tory Government from Thatcher through to Cameron. 

 

The prime example is Brexit.  Here, the vote was secured by a narrow margin.  Most people, even those that voted to leave, agreed that we should stay in the single market.  Yet due to the usual games we are facing a hard Brexit that only the far right wants!

 

Happens every time.  UK gets a far right Government that nobody voted for.

[dick dasterdly]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

I did not say she was.  I was referring to the hard right. 

 

It'll be May that wins the election on a unity platform that emphasises fairness.... and then the far right will seek to force its own unmandated agenda, just as it did with every Tory Government from Thatcher through to Cameron. 

 

The prime example is Brexit.  Here, the vote was secured by a narrow margin.  Most people, even those that voted to leave, agreed that we should stay in the single market.  Yet due to the usual games we are facing a hard Brexit that only the far right wants!

 

Happens every time.  UK gets a far right Government that nobody voted for.

Odd then that May was elected by such a hard right tory party?

 

It seems to me that EU politicians are 'talking' the UK into a hard brexit (too many examples to quote).....  But its only for political purposes and assuming May wins with an even larger majority, it seems likely they'll give up on the 'game' and start talking seriously.

 

Edit - If I'm wrong and they continue with their ridiculous demands, then May is right in saying that 'no agreement is better than a bad agreement'.

[vogie]

12 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

I did not say she was.  I was referring to the hard right. 

 

It'll be May that wins the election on a unity platform that emphasises fairness.... and then the far right will seek to force its own unmandated agenda, just as it did with every Tory Government from Thatcher through to Cameron. 

 

The prime example is Brexit.  Here, the vote was secured by a narrow margin.  Most people, even those that voted to leave, agreed that we should stay in the single market.  Yet due to the usual games we are facing a hard Brexit that only the far right wants!

 

Happens every time.  UK gets a far right Government that nobody voted for.

Staying in the single market means maintaining the status quo, we may as well have stayed in the EU, most brexiteers do not want that, only remainers.

[nontabury]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm losing track - its 85 bn now?

 

Or is that the conversion rate of euro to sterling?

What I cannot understand. All these figures being bandied around. Stating that the UK will be lieable for 50bn,85bn or is it 100bn. Yet where  do these figures come from? As seemingly the EU Bureacrats have failed to get their accounts signed off for many years. And according to an article in today's papers, even the European commissions own lawyers state,that these amounts are legally impossible to enforce.

  

[mommysboy]

4 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Odd then that May was elected by such a hard right tory party?

 

It seems to me that EU politicians are 'talking' the UK into a hard brexit (too many examples to quote).....  But its only for political purposes and assuming May wins with an even larger majority, it seems likely they'll give up on the 'game' and start talking seriously.

 

You are blind to the game imo.  Of course a moderate such as May (Cameron, Major) is always the public face.  What happens then is that the hard right slowly get to work subverting the mandate.

 

I hope you are right in your predictions.  But as with many you simply have not grasped that there are very limited options between single market and drop out.  At best I can see a long transference period based on the Norway model, and thereafter a trade deal similar to the one with Canada.

[dick dasterdly]

Just now, nontabury said:

What I cannot understand. All these figures being bandied around. Stating that the UK will be lieable for 50bn,85bn or is it 100bn. Yet where  do these figures come from? As seemingly the EU Bureacrats have failed to get their accounts signed off for many years. And according to an article in today's papers, even the European commissions own lawyers state,that these amounts are legally impossible to enforce.

  

I gather the 100 bn figure is down to the FT quoting that in an article - using EU presumptions and not taking into account any money owed to the UK 

[mommysboy]

4 minutes ago, vogie said:

Staying in the single market means maintaining the status quo, we may as well have stayed in the EU, most brexiteers do not want that, only remainers.

Well therein lies the rub, because the majority of Brexiteers were under the impression that UK would remain part of the single market imo.

 

But as you say that is really a worse option than remaining as a member.

 

Yet I think the majority (perhaps as much 75%) of the electorate wanted a soft Brexit.

 

Methinks the policy was mis-sold! 

 

And this is perhaps the only area where I agree with the similarly deluded EU, who say the public were misled.