May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[Flustered]

42 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I have already posted the link that shows Tory governments have more debt and pay of less of it than Labour ones even allowing for the 2008 financial meltdown.In fact since the Tories have been in power they have increased the debt by over 50%.. The debt has almost doubled since 2008-9 so far from bailing us out they have dug us deeper in.

As usual, you take a simplistic approach to debt and the "debt has almost doubled" has been proven to be a false "fact"

 

Getting out of Brown's mess is like stopping a supertanker at sea. Even with the engine in reverse, it has travelled further.

 

This report is about as accurate as anyone can get,

 

"The equivalent figure for the Conservatives up to 2016/17 is 53%. That means that UKIP and other critics of the government are wrong to claim that “the Tories have doubled the national debt”. That would only be true, in cash terms or in real terms, if you started from 2008/09, whereas the first year for which the Conservatives (and their Liberal Democrat coalition partners) can be said to be responsible for the debt is 2010/11."

 

https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/

[pitrevie]

3 minutes ago, Flustered said:

As usual, you take a simplistic approach to debt and the "debt has almost doubled" has been proven to be a false "fact"

 

Getting out of Brown's mess is like stopping a supertanker at sea. Even with the engine in reverse, it has travelled further.

 

This report is about as accurate as anyone can get,

 

"The equivalent figure for the Conservatives up to 2016/17 is 53%. That means that UKIP and other critics of the government are wrong to claim that “the Tories have doubled the national debt”. That would only be true, in cash terms or in real terms, if you started from 2008/09, whereas the first year for which the Conservatives (and their Liberal Democrat coalition partners) can be said to be responsible for the debt is 2010/11."

 

https://fullfact.org/economy/labour-and-conservative-records-national-debt/

 

You will note that I did say by over 50% which you agree with. I also said it had doubled since 2008-9 which I did not say was the fault of the Tories.

 

 

Blaming Brown for the financial meltdown in 2008-9 is something you have tried many times. The financial crisis started in the USA under a right wing president and quickly spread throughout the rest of the western world. It was a financial crisis in the private finances not the public finances and the UK like the USA had to step in and shore up the private financial system. Your simplistic blaming of Brown just doesn't hold water just as you cannot accept that since the Tories have been in power far from alleviating the debt they have increased by over 50% a figure you agree with.  In fact since Brown's time we have been getting our investments back from the sale of the banks back to the private sector so if anything the debt level should have gone down but somehow it has increased and that is all down to Brown.

I never had much time for Brown but I had no idea that he has such influence that he could bring down the banking system in the UK. 

 

Philip Hammond admits Brexit vote means £122bn extra borrowing, when in a hole stopping digging is I believe appropriate, or is that due to Brown as well.

 

Fact debt has increased by over 50% since the Tories have been in power, just how long are you going to blame Brown for the economic incompetence of this government?

 

[jpinx]

1 hour ago, Basil B said:

With over 80% belonging to two parties they know that it they are not the in power they will be within a few years under the FPTP system, interesting to hear a Labour person saying at the beginning of the election campaign there should be PR, I wonder how he voted in in the 2011 referendum? and his views on PR today?

One might observe that the turnouts for the brexit referendum, and for the GE just finished were both higher than any votes for some time back.  The electorate is engaging, maybe they need a "best of three" to really show what they want? 

 

It's a bit scary when we see the false facts propaganda as well as the vastly skewed baselines of the statistics and hyperbole plasterer across our screens/papers with scant regard for the fact that the various manifestos are frequently ignoring that proposals will take more time to implement than any parliament has sat in recent history.  Longterm planning is a blind spot for politicians - it ends when they get their pension, but there is no willingness to actually have a serious debate now about what kind of country the populations want in 10 or 20 years time.  Now it's perpetual crisis management and/or boom/bust economics.  Most of the crisis are brought about by the politicians themselves making seriously flawed decisions.  

 

There is a large school of thought that TM and the tories want power rather than brexit, so they'll suffer brexit if they think they can hold onto power.  Allowing the "dementia tax" to derail the GE campaign was something even my grandson thinks was the stupidest move possible - but maybe that was a deliberate ploy - a gamble that would have de-focussed brexit sufficiently to allow room for movement within some coalition as they seem to have now.  Let's wait to see if TM stays -- if so, it's clear that this was an engineered result.

 

 

[Flustered]

4 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

 

 

 

Blaming Brown for the financial meltdown in 2008-9 is something you have tried many times. The financial crisis started in the USA under a right wing president and quickly spread throughout the rest of the western world. It was a financial crisis in the private finances not the public finances and the UK like the USA had to step in and shore up the private financial system.

The "Brown school of thought on economics"  was held by many. It was based on home ownership by those who could not afford it, rising house prices , borrowing against the increase and then spending to fuel consumerism.

 

These mortgages which could never be paid back were "lost" in the various bundles the banks put together and had labelled AAA by the likes of S&P and passed on around the world.

 

Brown was a total failure in his role in the IMF which was meant to be on the lookout for this type of disaster.

 

This is the subject of other threads and not TM and the EU.

 

[pitrevie]

1 minute ago, Flustered said:

The "Brown school of thought on economics"  was held by many. It was based on home ownership by those who could not afford it, rising house prices , borrowing against the increase and then spending to fuel consumerism.

 

These mortgages which could never be paid back were "lost" in the various bundles the banks put together and had labelled AAA by the likes of S&P and passed on around the world.

 

Brown was a total failure in his role in the IMF which was meant to be on the lookout for this type of disaster.

 

This is the subject of other threads and not TM and the EU.

 

Amazing I don't think Lehman brothers had ever heard of Brown or his "school of thought on economics" in fact I have just googled it and cannot even get one hit. If you could blame Brown for anything it is that he followed the Tory policies of his predecessor and if you like I can provide you with several interesting quotes from Cameron and Osborne when they took over the Tory party in 2005 who were urging him not to be so heavy handed and to have less regulation when in fact he should have been heavy handed and introducing more regulation to curb the casino like mentality of the banks and financial organisations

To get to the root of the 2008-9 crisis go back to the eighties when we were promised financial nirvana with deregulation. I grew up in an age when you couldn't get a loan to buy a house that exceeded 2.5 times your annual salary. People were given tax incentives for long time saving in mutual societies and even a tax rebate on interest paid for buying a house. Suddenly all that went in the financial deregulation maelstrom, mutual societies disappeared, banks were turned into casinos and you could borrow what you liked. Encouraging people to save long term, borrow responsibly all went out of the window. So before you start blaming Brown put the blame where is fairly and squarely belongs. 

The eighties was also the era that saw the billions that had been invested in British infrastructure since 1945 being sold off which even caused Harold Macmillan to complain about selling off the family silver. Now many of those are on this forum wanting their country back are the very people who supported that sell off just to get their hands on a few extra quid. The very same people who want their country back sold it off so that much of our infrastructure is now owned by state owned companies, Germans, Spanish French and the Communist Party of China.

 

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

The "Brown school of thought on economics"  was held by many. It was based on home ownership by those who could not afford it, rising house prices , borrowing against the increase and then spending to fuel consumerism.

 

These mortgages which could never be paid back were "lost" in the various bundles the banks put together and had labelled AAA by the likes of S&P and passed on around the world.

 

Brown was a total failure in his role in the IMF which was meant to be on the lookout for this type of disaster.

 

This is the subject of other threads and not TM and the EU.

 

Really a capitalist agenda, surely?

 

Rampant consumerism, borrowing to fuel growth, deregulation, dubious accounting, a belief in the rightness of the free market... not things that should be repeated, and yet what was the first thing Tories did?... QE.

Edited June 10, 2017 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

1 hour ago, Flustered said:

The "Brown school of thought on economics"  was held by many. It was based on home ownership by those who could not afford it, rising house prices , borrowing against the increase and then spending to fuel consumerism.

 

These mortgages which could never be paid back were "lost" in the various bundles the banks put together and had labelled AAA by the likes of S&P and passed on around the world.

 

Brown was a total failure in his role in the IMF which was meant to be on the lookout for this type of disaster.

 

This is the subject of other threads and not TM and the EU.

 

You are right to pinpoint the cause, but not the person.

 

Before you attack any other person or entity to blame for the stunning failure, here is the likely reason:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-why-not-win-majority-conservatives-hung-parliament-jeremy-corbyn-labour-ashcroft-poll-a7783101.html

 

You see most people are on the bread line. Their biggest worry is feeding themselves, educating their children, and not dying in abject misery and poverty.

 

Your party is more disconnected from the common man than ever before.  That's why you blew it!

Think public services.

Edited June 10, 2017 by mommysboy

[Naam]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

You're the typical Brit? 

not really as i hate a lot of things what Brits seem to love, specifically the "English breakfast" which i like as much as whale vomit for brunch 

 

[nauseus]

3 hours ago, pitrevie said:

I have already posted the link that shows Tory governments have more debt and pay of less of it than Labour ones even allowing for the 2008 financial meltdown.In fact since the Tories have been in power they have increased the debt by over 50%.. The debt has almost doubled since 2008-9 so far from bailing us out they have dug us deeper in.

I don't think that you have allowed for the 2008 crisis nearly enough then. We are not able to see what would have happened if Labour had been in power for this period but let's be thankful for small mercies. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by nauseus

[SheungWan]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

Really a capitalist agenda, surely?

 

Rampant consumerism, borrowing to fuel growth, deregulation, dubious accounting, a belief in the rightness of the free market... not things that should be repeated, and yet what was the first thing Tories did?... QE.

Here in Thailand we are really keen on rampant consumerism.

[SheungWan]

55 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

You are right to pinpoint the cause, but not the person.

 

Before you attack any other person or entity to blame for the stunning failure, here is the likely reason:

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/theresa-may-why-not-win-majority-conservatives-hung-parliament-jeremy-corbyn-labour-ashcroft-poll-a7783101.html

 

You see most people are on the bread line. Their biggest worry is feeding themselves, educating their children, and not dying in abject misery and poverty.

 

Your party is more disconnected from the common man than ever before.  That's why you blew it!

Think public services.

When someone says that 'most people are on the bread line', how can the rest of their arguments be taken seriously?

[nauseus]

2 hours ago, pitrevie said:

 

You will note that I did say by over 50% which you agree with. I also said it had doubled since 2008-9 which I did not say was the fault of the Tories.

 

 

Blaming Brown for the financial meltdown in 2008-9 is something you have tried many times. The financial crisis started in the USA under a right wing president and quickly spread throughout the rest of the western world. It was a financial crisis in the private finances not the public finances and the UK like the USA had to step in and shore up the private financial system. Your simplistic blaming of Brown just doesn't hold water just as you cannot accept that since the Tories have been in power far from alleviating the debt they have increased by over 50% a figure you agree with.  In fact since Brown's time we have been getting our investments back from the sale of the banks back to the private sector so if anything the debt level should have gone down but somehow it has increased and that is all down to Brown.

I never had much time for Brown but I had no idea that he has such influence that he could bring down the banking system in the UK. 

 

Philip Hammond admits Brexit vote means £122bn extra borrowing, when in a hole stopping digging is I believe appropriate, or is that due to Brown as well.

 

Fact debt has increased by over 50% since the Tories have been in power, just how long are you going to blame Brown for the economic incompetence of this government?

 

Brown was not the cause of the 2008 crash. But look at your graph to see that debt was rising in 2008 even before QE started in early 2009, with both events occurring under Gordon Brown. Labour were out in May 2010 and the debt almost immediately slowed - that's austerity - hard on everyone but it was partly due to a slow down in the crazy government borrowing, slowing down in the rate of the rise of debt. Indeed, like trying to stop a supertanker!!

 

If Corbyn (or someone like him, who wants to spend money like mad to satisfy his very popular manifesto) is in power for the next financial crisis (which is probably not too distant) then the ship will go down all the way to the bottom next time, unfortunately. 

Edited June 10, 2017 by nauseus

[Grouse]

18 hours ago, Flustered said:

Looking at the news several things are coming to the fore.

 

The EU are determined that the UK is out at the 2 year point of article 50 and they will be hard on negotiations. In other words, punitive charges for leaving so the freedom of movement is a moot point.

 

Second, those highly intelligent little darlings who are at or about to go to university. Without exception, all of those asked why they voted Labour said for the free tuition fees. No mention of Brexit, the economy, defence or any major topic, just what's in it for them.

 

Hard Brexit it will be which is what the left and the uniformed young have pushed Teresa May into. Had she had a large majority, she could have negotiated from strength but now we shall reap as we have sowed.

Untrue. I listen to several interviews today. I also think TUITION fees should be paid by the state; it's the civilised thing to do.

[Grouse]

17 hours ago, Flustered said:

How can you have a soft Brexit when the people negotiating it on behalf of the UK are still mainly those who want a good deal or no deal?

 

The EU will want their pound of flesh which will be unacceptable to the negotiating team and the final offer to Parliament will be that no deal was agreed.

 

And finally, every pundit has accepted that the student vote was what gave Labour their increase. Labour do not care about their future, just their votes.  Labour have always promised the moon and stars and delivered nothing except debt and disaster. But the students are too young to remember what Labour have not achieved over the decades. I dare say you are one of them.

 

Get your head around that.

If you had listened to Radio 4 this morning you would understand that what you say is nonsense. The EU are being entirely understanding and helpful. The main gripe is that they have no idea what "London" wants. I don't.

[Grouse]

17 hours ago, Flustered said:

I think that is about the limit of most students memory span judging by those on the TV today. I have never heard of "the revenge of the snowflakes and remoaners, is it some fantasy film?

 

You still do not get the no deal scenario. By hamstringing her, the no deal is even more likely.

 

Why should TM go? She won the election and Corbyn lost.

 

The only scenario that could have been worse was labour winning.

She should go because she's crap.

[SheungWan]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Untrue. I listen to several interviews today. I also think TUITION fees should be paid by the state; it's the civilised thing to do.

I agree. And in a similar civilised vein I hope that by the time of the next election the Conservative Party will, in their manifesto, offer us older guys free business class flights to Thailand. Dementia Travel will be a sure-fire vote winner.

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Actually the conservatives were never after a hard brexit. they wanted a fair deal. What they said was if there deal wasn't fair then they would rather have no deal, so lets get that fact straight

 

There are a lo of people who were wanting a second EU referendum or wanting no brexit, also  a second Scottish referendum, crying this morning into their cornflakes. Nothing has changed much. You can sugar coat it as much as you like. Labour are not going to be in power. NS has gone with her tail between her legs. TM is still the prime minister and once the EU start giving their demands and TM starts telling the UK people what they insist on, you will see a turn from the British people and see the tyranny that they are.

 

Business as usual.

Until the Queen's speech

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

What on earth are you prattling on about now? Some of us actually live in the UK with our Thai families, and most others renew their visas in Thailand, where they live. Maybe you coming clean with your own immigration status would explain your ignorance? 

12 month CAT O only from Embassies not consulates.

[vogie]

22 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Untrue. I listen to several interviews today. I also think TUITION fees should be paid by the state; it's the civilised thing to do.

The state simply cannot afford for the tuition fees, there are 500,000 school leavers going to university every year. If the average university fees are £14,000, that works out at £7000,000,000 (I would love someone to check my figures.) In my opinion these students have chosen to go of their own accord, they are coming out with useless degrees, why should this be a burden on the tax payer? If a school leaver is exceptionally academically gifted then there might be a cause to fund the student.

[Grouse]

3 hours ago, jpinx said:

Longterm planning is a blind spot for politicians

In this country. And that's why the Germans stuff us 

[vogie]

51 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Untrue. I listen to several interviews today. I also think TUITION fees should be paid by the state; it's the civilised thing to do.

The state cannot afford to pay these fees. There are about 500,000 school leavers going to universities every year, if the fees are £14,000, that works out at £7000,000,000 in total, that is a lot of money by anybodys standards, (if somebody would like to check my figures ok.) Lets be honest these school leavers are choosing to go to uni, they are not chosen. If the school leaver is academically gifted there could be a case for subsidising that student, but to expect the tax payer to fork out the above mentioned figures is grossly unfair.

 

Sorry for my duplicated post, but I got a 'bad gateway' on my first one.

Edited June 10, 2017 by vogie

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Naam said:

not really as i hate a lot of things what Brits seem to love, specifically the "English breakfast" which i like as much as whale vomit for brunch 

 

How very dare you!

 

I was once flying Qatar Air from LHR to BKK via some godforsaken place in the desert. The second leg was a morning flight, and, sitting at the front, I tried the "Arab Breakfast". Well! Talk about a damascene moment! It all became clear! If you gave these people a PROPER YORKSHIRE breakfast most of the world's problems would be solved. Have you seen what these guys get for breakfast? In business class? I'd be a terrorist! No. Give everyone back bacon and eggs, fried bread and tomatoes, black pudding and potato cakes. And a cup of Tetley tea!

 

Welcome to the new world!!

[AGareth2]

3 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How very dare you!

 

I was once flying Qatar Air from LHR to BKK via some godforsaken place in the desert. The second leg was a morning flight, and, sitting at the front, I tried the "Arab Breakfast". Well! Talk about a damascene moment! It all became clear! If you gave these people a PROPER YORKSHIRE breakfast most of the world's problems would be solved. Have you seen what these guys get for breakfast? In business class? I'd be a terrorist! No. Give everyone back bacon and eggs, fried bread and tomatoes, black pudding and potato cakes. And a cup of Tetley tea!

 

Welcome to the new world!!

apart from the tea as I prefer Ceylon I agree with the food, Eggs scrambled or poached

[AlexRich]

2 minutes ago, Grouse said:

How very dare you!

 

I was once flying Qatar Air from LHR to BKK via some godforsaken place in the desert. The second leg was a morning flight, and, sitting at the front, I tried the "Arab Breakfast". Well! Talk about a damascene moment! It all became clear! If you gave these people a PROPER YORKSHIRE breakfast most of the world's problems would be solved. Have you seen what these guys get for breakfast? In business class? I'd be a terrorist! No. Give everyone back bacon and eggs, fried bread and tomatoes, black pudding and potato cakes. And a cup of Tetley tea!

 

Welcome to the new world!!

I've flown Qatar business class a few times and was quite impressed. I always enjoyed the Arab coffee with dates that they dish out before the flight.

 

Just read that May's two lackeys have resigned. I think that was to stave off a leadership challenge, for now at least.

[AGareth2]

1 minute ago, AlexRich said:

I've flown Qatar business class a few times and was quite impressed. I always enjoyed the Arab coffee with dates that they dish out before the flight.

 

Just read that May's two lackeys have resigned. I think that was to stave off a leadership challenge, for now at least.

put not your faith in Princes

[Grouse]

25 minutes ago, vogie said:

The state simply cannot afford for the tuition fees, there are 500,000 school leavers going to university every year. If the average university fees are £14,000, that works out at £7000,000,000 (I would love someone to check my figures.) In my opinion these students have chosen to go of their own accord, they are coming out with useless degrees, why should this be a burden on the tax payer? If a school leaver is exceptionally academically gifted then there might be a cause to fund the student.

My dear Vogie!

 

You need to think outside the box!

 

You're right. And wrong!

 

We need to encourage young people to work REALLY hard and MOTIVATE them to learn the things we need. Give them all the support they need. Our economy needs it

 

But, stop "universities" offering crap courses. Get something done about technical training a la Germany.

 

When I was at U we had military scholarship types reading Physics and maths and engineering. You have to train people!

 

As for fees, do you not understand that Expert Systems are taking over? Yes we need lab time. Yes we need experts as mentors. But the costs are all wrong.

 

Sorry, my biro ran out

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Brown was not the cause of the 2008 crash. But look at your graph to see that debt was rising in 2008 even before QE started in early 2009, with both events occurring under Gordon Brown. Labour were out in May 2010 and the debt almost immediately slowed - that's austerity - hard on everyone but it was partly due to a slow down in the crazy government borrowing, slowing down in the rate of the rise of debt. Indeed, like trying to stop a supertanker!!

 

If Corbyn (or someone like him, who wants to spend money like mad to satisfy his very popular manifesto) is in power for the next financial crisis (which is probably not too distant) then the ship will go down all the way to the bottom next time, unfortunately. 

In what way? You're clearly not an Economist. Do you understand Keynesian economics.

 

BTW, I'm no fan of Brown but some say his bold actions saved the world from meltdown. Blame someone? The Bankers! Bastards!

[vogie]

4 minutes ago, Grouse said:

My dear Vogie!

 

You need to think outside the box!

 

You're right. And wrong!

 

We need to encourage young people to work REALLY hard and MOTIVATE them to learn the things we need. Give them all the support they need. Our economy needs it

 

But, stop "universities" offering crap courses. Get something done about technical training a la Germany.

 

When I was at U we had military scholarship types reading Physics and maths and engineering. You have to train people!

 

As for fees, do you not understand that Expert Systems are taking over? Yes we need lab time. Yes we need experts as mentors. But the costs are all wrong.

 

Sorry, my biro ran out

 

6 minutes ago, Grouse said:

My dear Vogie!

 

You need to think outside the box!

 

You're right. And wrong!

 

We need to encourage young people to work REALLY hard and MOTIVATE them to learn the things we need. Give them all the support they need. Our economy needs it

 

But, stop "universities" offering crap courses. Get something done about technical training a la Germany.

 

When I was at U we had military scholarship types reading Physics and maths and engineering. You have to train people!

 

As for fees, do you not understand that Expert Systems are taking over? Yes we need lab time. Yes we need experts as mentors. But the costs are all wrong.

 

Sorry, my biro ran out

I don't think any of my post is wrong, but I agree with you we should be doing things differently. Am I right in thinking that the Germans have to pass a rigorous exam before going to university?

[Grouse]

5 minutes ago, vogie said:

 

I don't think any of my post is wrong, but I agree with you we should be doing things differently. Am I right in thinking that the Germans have to pass a rigorous exam before going to university?

Right on the money!

 

Our A levels are devalued. BIG mistake

 

Labour were responsible: reduce youth unemployment statistics. Ridiculous!

 

Many students now don't even have a proper scarf!!!

[nontabury]

36 minutes ago, vogie said:

The state cannot afford to pay these fees. There are about 500,000 school leavers going to universities every year, if the fees are £14,000, that works out at £7000,000,000 in total, that is a lot of money by anybodys standards, (if somebody would like to check my figures ok.) Lets be honest these school leavers are choosing to go to uni, they are not chosen. If the school leaver is academically gifted there could be a case for subsidising that student, but to expect the tax payer to fork out the above mentioned figures is grossly unfair.

 

Sorry for my duplicated post, but I got a 'bad gateway' on my first one.

Plus many E.U. Citizens can also take advantage of grants to English,N.I and Welsh universities, and then forget to repay the monies back.

E.U citizens can is they so wish, attend a Scottish university for free. Unfortunately students from England. N.I and Wales are not allowed to take advantage of this wonderful offer, even though their parents are financing this system.