May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[AlexRich]

45 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Comparing the brexit vote to the nazis is just propaganda overdrive - and seriously depressing that some are happy to compare the genocide (plus their other atrocities) of the nazis to the brexit vote .

 

It's not that far fetched ... Hitler did not rise to power with the stated aim of creating gas chambers and concentration camps ... but when extremists become popular these things can happen. 

[AlexRich]

1 hour ago, dick dasterdly said:

Re. the last para. - that's not a bad idea!

 

Good for those business whose hate the brexit result, and good too for the EU who still receive some money .

 

Obviously a flippant idea, but there's a grain of truth there.

 

Why pay the annual fee when you can move the business to Europe? As many a contingency plan will attest to. 

 

 

 

 

[AlexRich]

3 hours ago, jaidam said:

The damage that has been done is by having an agreed-by-parliament referendum, and then because one side could not handle the result there are all these gymnastics trying to weasel out of the referendum result, which was a clear victory for team Brexit. This event marks an end to the concept of democratic elections, which IMO is a shame, as it was a better system than whoever crys the hardest wins, or whoever loots and burns the best wins. The left will soon regret their behaviour, they will find others can moan, loot and burn just as hard as they could. May has proven herself completely out of her depth here. She needs to forget article 50 and quit the EU today, tell them where to stuff their fines, and get a stiff handle on the anarchists that dispute the vote result.

 I previously called it a huge win, I say this because the map shows this to be the case. Of course, cities such as London where most inhabitants have a "migrant background" are obviously going to be anti-Brexit. Thankfully London is not representative of the rest of the country, where common sense prevailed.

 

London, Oxford, Cambridge ... anywhere with brainpower voted to stay. The vote was 48-52, a result that if it had been the other way old Farage would be still out there campaigning because it was too narrow to be the settled will of the people ... the slim majority don't have the right to shove their 'hard' brexit concept down the throats of the rest of us ... if you want a divided UK that's the way to go. And as this fiasco progresses what will you say if enough voters simply change their mind, as they do in elections? Would that be democracy?

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

It's not that far fetched ... Hitler did not rise to power with the stated aim of creating gas chambers and concentration camps ... but when extremists become popular these things can happen. 

And you're still making the same comparisons!

 

Very depressing, but perhaps I shouldn't be suprised that some are prepared to stoop that low .

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

 

Why pay the annual fee when you can move the business to Europe? As many a contingency plan will attest to. 

 

 

 

 

You're quite right of course - and it will be interesting to see how many businesses fold down their UK operations and move to Europe.  Even more interesting to see how many small businesses move to Europe.

 

But the original idea of UK businesses who wish to stay within the EU paying the fee is pretty good.  Individuals too could pay a fee to work in Europe, although this is a bit self-defeating as it was always easy to get a job abroad if an employer wanted their services.

 

Edit - the more I think about it the better the idea sounds!

Edited November 26, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[SheungWan]

10 hours ago, Orac said:

 

I am sure you must be mistaken here as a very reliable source informed me that Turkey was actually joining the EU.

 

Tomato Source.

[cumgranosalum]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

Comparing the brexit vote to the nazis is just propaganda overdrive - and seriously depressing that some are happy to compare the genocide (plus their other atrocities) of the nazis to the brexit vote .

Sometimes it amazes me how ill-informed people are - the similarities and comparisons to hitler's rise to power a so markedly similar that is has catalogued by many observers - who I would suggest are remarkable more erudite that you or I.

[Grouse]

16 hours ago, jimmybkk said:

Do you Remainers genuinely fail to understand the real reason that the "numpties" as you like to refer to them voted to Leave? You know it had nothing to do with Boris posters, right? So assuming you know that much, what do you think the real reason was...? (this will be interesting...)

 

 

Inequality primarily

 

Remainers are statistically more educated, better off, higher demographic group, and thus relatively OK with the status quo

 

We have only ourselves to blame for allowing inequality to grow so much that so many people wanted change

 

Demagogues were able to blame all problems on the EU.

 

Leave the EU and all will be well ...

[AlexRich]

4 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

And you're still making the same comparisons!

 

Very depressing, but perhaps I shouldn't be suprised that some are prepared to stoop that low .

 

It was reported that when Donald Trump was briefed by the military he asked them three times why they have never used nuclear weapons ... that's the problem when populists take over, you get more than you bargained for.

 

[AlexRich]

8 hours ago, Khun Han said:

The intellectual dishonesty by some of the remainers on here is astonishing, Rock. They've spent several pages trying to villify you over the brexit NHS connection, when, for months, the same posters were arguing that the only important factor in the vote to leave was immigration.

 

Nope, what many have said is that it was the factor that won the day ... without it the vote would have been remain. NHS lie was used to boost the vote.

[Grouse]

11 hours ago, SgtRock said:

 

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/pay-to-stay-in-europe-nf5b05dzj

 

It's in the Times also, so it must be true.

 

Can any of the remainer remoaners declare their intentions to sign up for this great annual opportunity.

 

It also negates their need to constantly try to undermine Brexit.

 

Best of both worlds. What a Winner.

 

I suggested months ago, before the referendum that if the EU was so great for business's, those business's should be collectively paying the annual fee, not the taxpayer.

 

 

 

 

I would certainly be up for that.

 

I will certainly remain one way or another.

 

There are several options

 

UK remains

Scotland becomes independent and joins

I get residency in Denmark

I sign up for the "opportunity"

 

I'm now in Aragon, Spain and once again, despite the huge unemployment problems, the country feels civilised. Still have civic pride.....

[Grouse]

7 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

In which case, your 'sense of humour' is becoming very repetitive - and like anyone who tells the same joke over and over again - ends up as the boring/predictable and far from humourous person to everyone else.

 

It was the first time I suggested we just stay in and give the Brexiteers a six pack in compensation. I withdraw the offer.

[Grouse]

Just saw this bronze by Gargallo in Zaragoza. "The Brexiteer"

Edited November 26, 2016 by Grouse

[Laughing Gravy]

6 hours ago, Grouse said:

Remainers are statistically more educated, better off, higher demographic group, and thus relatively OK with the status quo

Whilst the stats are showing that more people had a university degree voted remain that doesn't mean that people without one are less informed and quite frankly more knowledgeable. The older generation voted to leave but the amount of people from them had less university degrees opportunities than now, by far. I have mentioned it before that all my friends besides one voted leave and we have a draw full of university degrees between us. Does this make us all more knowledgeable or even that we have a greater right to know what the consequences of Brexit was or if we stayed in the EU? The answer is no. People voted on their believe for what ever reason. This is the rhetoric often pushed by remoaners that brexit voters are somewhat inferior and less educated. They may have less degrees on paper but that means nothing. The truth could be said that from more mature people saying that the younger generation with their degrees, do not have the wealth of experience. I don't like the linking of university degrees to understanding and knowledge on politics and daily life. In fact I have met so many people with degrees and PhDs and they are the most dimwitted, uninteresting and oblivious to politics and life generally around them.

[AlexRich]

37 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Whilst the stats are showing that more people had a university degree voted remain that doesn't mean that people without one are less informed and quite frankly more knowledgeable. The older generation voted to leave but the amount of people from them had less university degrees opportunities than now, by far. I have mentioned it before that all my friends besides one voted leave and we have a draw full of university degrees between us. Does this make us all more knowledgeable or even that we have a greater right to know what the consequences of Brexit was or if we stayed in the EU? The answer is no. People voted on their believe for what ever reason. This is the rhetoric often pushed by remoaners that brexit voters are somewhat inferior and less educated. They may have less degrees on paper but that means nothing. The truth could be said that from more mature people saying that the younger generation with their degrees, do not have the wealth of experience. I don't like the linking of university degrees to understanding and knowledge on politics and daily life. In fact I have met so many people with degrees and PhDs and they are the most dimwitted, uninteresting and oblivious to politics and life generally around them.

 

The same generation that have racked up the debt, triple locked their pensions and benefited greatly from property booms and company pensions vote for something that does not effect them financially ... and leave the younger generations in more straightened circumstances to clear up the mess. They are the future of the country, not you and your friends. 

 

[Grouse]

1 hour ago, Laughing Gravy said:

Whilst the stats are showing that more people had a university degree voted remain that doesn't mean that people without one are less informed and quite frankly more knowledgeable. The older generation voted to leave but the amount of people from them had less university degrees opportunities than now, by far. I have mentioned it before that all my friends besides one voted leave and we have a draw full of university degrees between us. Does this make us all more knowledgeable or even that we have a greater right to know what the consequences of Brexit was or if we stayed in the EU? The answer is no. People voted on their believe for what ever reason. This is the rhetoric often pushed by remoaners that brexit voters are somewhat inferior and less educated. They may have less degrees on paper but that means nothing. The truth could be said that from more mature people saying that the younger generation with their degrees, do not have the wealth of experience. I don't like the linking of university degrees to understanding and knowledge on politics and daily life. In fact I have met so many people with degrees and PhDs and they are the most dimwitted, uninteresting and oblivious to politics and life generally around them.

 

Do you REALLY understand what the word statistically means?

[SgtRock]

Another headache has just reared its ugly for the EU. Or is that just another nail in it's coffin ?

 

Quote

A bill currently before the Swiss parliament to bridge an immigration impasse with the European Union may be challenged by a referendum, according to the country’s president.

 

Quote

Were Switzerland to impose unilateral quotas, that would contravene a set of treaties with the EU covering everything from civil aviation to the free movement of persons, and canceling one element will cause the entire set to be nullified. Officials in Brussels have said the agreements can’t be renegotiated. According to a study for the Swiss government, annulling the pacts could cost the economy an estimated 32 billion francs ($32 billion) a year in potential economic output.

 

Quote

Parliament’s lower house has already backed the “light” proposal, overcoming opposition by the anti-immigrant Swiss People’s Party, which spearheaded the 2014 vote. The upper house is scheduled to debate the measure in the coming days.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-26/swiss-president-expects-immigration-plan-referendum-challenge-ivzgefr8

 

Officials in Brussels have said '' the agreements cannot be renegotiated ''

 

Is that another example of the great decisive leadership that the EU shows, or simply another head in the sand approach ?

[Laughing Gravy]

5 hours ago, AlexRich said:

They are the future of the country, not you and your friends. 

I and my friends are still the future. I still believe I have another 40 years plus to contribute to the world. Just as someone say reaches 40, it doesn't mean they are not the future. We all are.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[SgtRock]

On 11/25/2016 at 9:26 AM, Orac said:

Schulz is due to step down in mid-January. Under a 2014 power-sharing deal between the European People’s Party and the Socialists, the EU Parliament’s two biggest groups, Schulz was given an unprecedented second term as president until January 2017 and the post was to be filled by an EPP candidate until the end of the legislative period in mid-2019. "

 

Just for you Orac, and the 3 wise monkey's tribute act who agreed with you.

 

Quote

Martin Schulz throws spanner in Brussels’ political works

 

Quote

Departure threatens to disrupt EU grand coalition at time of rising pressure on bloc

 

Quote

“All this is up in the air, all of it,” said a parliament veteran, worried about messy fallout from Mr Schulz’s departure. “The question is whether we can organise a coalition that is stable and supportive of Juncker when the [socialist bloc] is unhappy, divided and moving left.”

 

https://www.ft.com/content/7da380ae-b242-11e6-9c37-5787335499a0

 

Now ask yourself this.

 

Why would the FT be writing about spanners in the works and the disruption of EU grand coalition if it was already known back in 2014 ( according to you, with nothing to substantiate it ) that he was already going in January 2017 ?

Edited November 27, 2016 by SgtRock

[Laughing Gravy]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Do you REALLY understand what the word statistically means?

Yes I do and have not said otherwise. Do you not understand my point? Having a university degree does not make you better informed on the referendum.

Edited November 27, 2016 by Laughing Gravy

[SgtRock]

5 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

The same generation that have racked up the debt, triple locked their pensions and benefited greatly from property booms and company pensions vote for something that does not effect them financially ... and leave the younger generations in more straightened circumstances to clear up the mess. They are the future of the country, not you and your friends. 

 

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the older generation are responsible for the UK's debt crisis ?

 

The people most responsible for the UK's debt crisis are successive Government who could not see beyond the timescale of a fixed Parliament and did not plan for the future.

 

I would hazard a guess that not many pensioners would have had any input into the State Pension triple lock.

 

Are you forgetting that the older generation went through the pain of sky high interest rates and came out the other side. Swings and roundabouts.

 

As a UK taxpayer, and I will be to the day I die. You are very much mistaken, myself, and every other person who is in the same boat as me, are indeed, part of the UK's future.

 

I am more than willing to extract myself from the UK's future in return for the Government giving up the right to tax me.

[jpinx]

5 hours ago, AlexRich said:

 

The same generation that have racked up the debt, triple locked their pensions and benefited greatly from property booms and company pensions vote for something that does not effect them financially ... and leave the younger generations in more straightened circumstances to clear up the mess. They are the future of the country, not you and your friends. 

 

That is probably the worst attempt to de-rail a conversation as I have seen in here -- and there's been some whoppers !

[jpinx]

13 hours ago, Grouse said:

 

Inequality primarily

 

Remainers are statistically more educated, better off, higher demographic group, and thus relatively OK with the status quo

 

We have only ourselves to blame for allowing inequality to grow so much that so many people wanted change

 

Demagogues were able to blame all problems on the EU.

 

Leave the EU and all will be well ...

What utter garbage.  How many of the great US presidents managed perfectly well without "higher education" in the form of whatever degree?  Education is absolutely NO guarantee of commonsense - in fact it is usually the other way around.  Hence the incessant infantile bleatings of the "educated" remainers who can not accept democracy.

[Orac]

44 minutes ago, SgtRock said:

 

Just for you Orac, and the 3 wise monkey's tribute act who agreed with you.

 

 

 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/7da380ae-b242-11e6-9c37-5787335499a0

 

Now ask yourself this.

 

Why would the FT be writing about spanners in the works and the disruption of EU grand coalition if it was already known back in 2014 ( according to you, with nothing to substantiate it ) that he was already going in January 2017 ?

 

Not only was it not unsubstantiated but it wasn't even me that said it and was, in fact, a quote taken from a Bloomberg article that you quoted to make your argument that there was something fishy going on with Martin Schulz stepping down.

 

Just to remind you, the article that the quote is taken from that YOU posted is here

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-24/martin-schulz-to-leave-brussels-to-seek-german-parliament-seat

 

and your post where you provided the link is here:

 

You clearly deliberately ommitted the first line of my post that you quoted which which, in its entirety was:

 

Did you even bother reading the article you linked to?

"Schulz is due to step down in mid-January. Under a 2014 power-sharing deal between the European People’s Party and the Socialists, the EU Parliament’s two biggest groups, Schulz was given an unprecedented second term as president until January 2017 and the post was to be filled by an EPP candidate until the end of the legislative period in mid-2019. "

 

Very dodgy indeed leaving that  first line out which completely alters the context of what I said  but, rather than reporting it, will leave it here so that my point is clear and people can see how ridiculous your point and debating tactics are.

 

 

[SgtRock]

7 minutes ago, Orac said:

 

Not only was it not unsubstantiated but it wasn't even me that said it and was, in fact, a quote taken from a Bloomberg article that you quoted to make your argument that there was something fishy going on with Martin Schulz stepping down.

 

Just to remind you, the article that the quote is taken from that YOU posted is here

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-11-24/martin-schulz-to-leave-brussels-to-seek-german-parliament-seat

 

and your post where you provided the link is here:

 

You clearly deliberately ommitted the first line of my post that you quoted which which, in its entirety was:

 

Did you even bother reading the article you linked to?

"Schulz is due to step down in mid-January. Under a 2014 power-sharing deal between the European People’s Party and the Socialists, the EU Parliament’s two biggest groups, Schulz was given an unprecedented second term as president until January 2017 and the post was to be filled by an EPP candidate until the end of the legislative period in mid-2019. "

 

Very dodgy indeed leaving that  first line out which completely alters the context of what I said  but, rather than reporting it, will leave it here so that my point is clear and people can see how ridiculous your point and debating tactics are.

 

 

 

No attempt to deliberately omit anything.

 

I provide a lot of articles, which I then comment on. Notice that is totally different to providing articles that support my so called agenda ( which does not exist ) so you will have to excuse me if I cannot remember verbatim every single word written in those articles.

 

It neither negates what the FT article says

 

1 hour ago, SgtRock said:

 

Just for you Orac, and the 3 wise monkey's tribute act who agreed with you.

 

 

 

 

https://www.ft.com/content/7da380ae-b242-11e6-9c37-5787335499a0

 

Now ask yourself this.

 

Why would the FT be writing about spanners in the works and the disruption of EU grand coalition if it was already known back in 2014 ( according to you, with nothing to substantiate it ) that he was already going in January 2017 ?

 

Instead of attacking the poster. How about the substance of the article and post ?

[Orac]

Mainly because your article is behind a firewall but, to be honest, it is pointless anyway if you will just totally change the meaning of what i say by cutting off lines like "Did you even bother reading the article you linked to?" thus making it appear that details from your own linked article are my opinions then try and make out it is me making unsubstantiated claims - pathetic.

[SgtRock]

Looks like Tata have resolved their internal problems are just about to commit to the UK

 

Quote

Tata is preparing to commit to its UK steel operations, including the vast Port Talbot works, for at least the next 10 years, in a move which would secure the future of more than 11,000 steel workers and deliver a major boost to the government.

 

Quote

Lord Bhattacharyya, one of the group’s closest advisers, said Tata is preparing “major announcements about growth in Tata Steel”, and is “resolving” the problems facing the business. He also said the company is halting the sale of its speciality steels arm, which is part of Tata Steel UK and employs about 2,000 people in northern England.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/25/tata-commit-uk-steel-next-decade

[SgtRock]

Potentially more good news for the UK and a fine example of how Business and Government should be working in harmony.

 

Quote

Jaguar Land Rover's chief executive Dr Ralf Speth has laid out a future vision which could see 10,000 new jobs created in the West Midlands.

 

Quote

But it would depend on the government helping to upgrade power supplies and invest in surrounding infrastructure.

 

The firm would also like a guarantee on access to engineering talent.

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-38102507

 

Government invests in infrastructure and the Business will invest in expansion. Sounds like a win-win to me.

 

Sure, give a guarantee on access to engineering. You tell us what you think you need, we can then discuss, come to a mutual agreement and issue the necessary work permits. Job done.

 

No foot stamping, no special demands, just a beneficial agreement for both parties.

[SgtRock]

22 minutes ago, Orac said:

Mainly because your article is behind a firewall but, to be honest, it is pointless anyway if you will just totally change the meaning of what i say by cutting off lines like "Did you even bother reading the article you linked to?" thus making it appear that details from your own linked article are my opinions then try and make out it is me making unsubstantiated claims - pathetic.

 

 

Brilliant response

 

Goodbye

[Srikcir]

2 hours ago, jpinx said:

How many of the great US presidents managed perfectly well without "higher education" in the form of whatever degree?

Not sure how you measure "great" US presidents, but the last one not having a "higher education" was Harry S. Truman.