May ready for tough talks over Brexit

[billd766]

22 hours ago, sandyf said:

Bill there is a certain validity in your initial comment but is it really in anyones interest to put business under pressure so they put prices up or start relocating.

Every indication is that the most viable way forward would be the 'soft' option but TM appears to be doing everything she can to close that door.

 

I agree with you, but OTOH would you want big business to run the country for themselves rather than for all the people?

[billd766]

19 hours ago, jpinx said:

An expat is just that "ex-" and he made the decision to leave, leaving voting, residential, healthcare and all other "rights" behind. 

 

Unfortunately one of the things that the government grimly hangs onto is the right to tax expats if their income is over the miserly tax threshold.

 

"No taxation without representation".

 

Does that phrase ring a bell.

 

If you are going to tax me then surely I have the right to be represented by an MP?

[billd766]

5 hours ago, Loeilad said:

As Wil Self said

"Not all Brexiteers are racist, but all racists are Brexiteers"

 

So why would you vote with the racists?

 

What an "interesting" person Will (with 2 ll) Self is.

 

More interestingly you seem to hold him in high regard.

 

This is what Wikipedia says about him. No I made no contributions to the article.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Self

 

 

[jpinx]

29 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Unfortunately one of the things that the government grimly hangs onto is the right to tax expats if their income is over the miserly tax threshold.

 

"No taxation without representation".

 

Does that phrase ring a bell.

 

If you are going to tax me then surely I have the right to be represented by an MP?

Not at all -- if you produce evidence of being taxed under another country's regime, UK taxman will disown you --- unless you're not a real expat and you have income from UK.   That is where so many people want to have their cake *and* eat it. 

[jpinx]

3 hours ago, sandyf said:

Is the real cost of brexit beginning to show?

 

Ireland's central bank has been receiving applications for licences from UK authorised financial firms seeking to relocate from London in the wake of the UK vote to leave the EU, a top official said on Thursday.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/brexit-single-market-irish-central-bank-uk-finance-firms-ireland-licence-applications-a7450221.html

not really -- Ireland has a famously interesting attitude to corporation tax and there's always a queue of enquiries. 

 

What's happening is the journalists are scouting around for any little snippit of information to support their editors whim. 

[dick dasterdly]

5 hours ago, Loeilad said:

As Wil Self said

"Not all Brexiteers are racist, but all racists are Brexiteers"

 

So why would you vote with the racists?

I doubt the truth of that quote as I've known a few racists that considered themselves 'upwardly mobile', and therefore always supported the establishment view and voted accordingly - sincerely believing that this was of benefit to themselves .

 

Its quite possible of course that they voted against the 'establishment view' in the referendum - but I doubt it, and believe that much as they supported the 'Little England' view they would still have voted in support of those important establishment authorities who told them that remain was the 'right' vote.

[dick dasterdly]

54 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Unfortunately one of the things that the government grimly hangs onto is the right to tax expats if their income is over the miserly tax threshold.

 

"No taxation without representation".

 

Does that phrase ring a bell.

 

If you are going to tax me then surely I have the right to be represented by an MP?

 

23 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Not at all -- if you produce evidence of being taxed under another country's regime, UK taxman will disown you --- unless you're not a real expat and you have income from UK.   That is where so many people want to have their cake *and* eat it. 

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

Having paid UK taxes throughout my working life, and still paying tax on company/private pensions - I'm trying to 'have my cake and eat it' by thinking that I should still be entitled to vote?

 

IMO Billd is exactly right when he says 'no taxation without representation'.

 

Edited December 2, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[jpinx]

3 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

 

Not sure what you mean by this.

 

Having paid UK taxes throughout my working life, and still paying tax on company/private pensions - I'm trying to 'have my cake and eat it' by thinking that I should still be entitled to vote?

 

IMO Billd is exactly right when he says 'no taxation without representation.

 

We need another thread for this topic

 

My point is that a person who chooses to live in Thailand and cuts *ALL* ties with UK, including taxation, should not get the vote.  If someone feels he can not set up the offshore accounts needed to get his UK-based pensions paid tax-free, that is unfortunate, but does not grant a voting right.  The vast majority of "expats" one encounters around the world are not really expats at all -- they're half-pats. 

 

[billd766]

35 minutes ago, jpinx said:

Not at all -- if you produce evidence of being taxed under another country's regime, UK taxman will disown you --- unless you're not a real expat and you have income from UK.   That is where so many people want to have their cake *and* eat it. 

 

Unfortunately under the UK taxation rules any earning deemed by HMRC to have been earned in the UK is taxable in the UK and is not normally taxed in a second country. Therefore my State pension (frozen at the 2009 rate), my Armed Forces Pension and my company pension are ALL taxable in the UK at the UK rates and cannot be transferred to another country where perhaps I would pay less tax.

 

As a real expat I left the UK in 1991 to work offshore for a UK based company. I finally quit the company in the UK and became an independent contractor in 1999. My earnings offshore were nothing to do with the UK taxman but I still paid income tax on my pensions.

 

I have nothing in the UK other than my son, his wife, 2 grandchildren and an ex-wife.

 

BTW I am still paying income tax.

 

I started paying income tax at age 15 and will continue to do so until I die.

 

Now if that isn't being a "real" expat please tell me what is?

Edited December 2, 2016 by billd766
Added extra text

[Khun Han]

6 hours ago, Loeilad said:

As Wil Self said

"Not all Brexiteers are racist, but all racists are Brexiteers"

 

So why would you vote with the racists?

 

Well, if for no other reason, to avoid voting with arrogant, England-hating know-it-alls.

 

What makes me laugh the most in these discussions is the moral high ground on racism and xenophobia taken by remainers who then go on to post broad, sweeping, cliché-ridden insults and put-downs of huge swathes of our population . They just can't see how stupid and hypocritical they show themselves to be every time they do it.

Edited December 2, 2016 by Khun Han

[jpinx]

2 minutes ago, billd766 said:

 

Unfortunately under the UK taxation rules any earning deemed by HMRC to have been earned in the UK is taxable in the UK and is not normally taxed in a second country. Therefore my State pension (frozen at the 2009 rate), my Armed Forces Pension and my company pension are ALL taxable in the UK at the UK rates and cannot be transferred to another country where perhaps I would pay less tax.

 

As a real expat I left the UK in 1991 to work offshore for a UK based company. I finally quit the company in the UK and became an independent contractor in 1999. My earnings offshore were nothing to do with the UK taxman but I still paid income tax on my pensions.

 

I have nothing in the UK other than my son, his wife, 2 grandchildren and an ex-wife.

 

Now if that isn't being a "real" expat please tell me what is?

I was told by tax accountants that I could get everything from UK pensions paid taxfree into an offshore account.  That's where my ideas came from.   I have no problem with "no taxation without representation", but there are vast areas of uncertainty in the whole situation, kept deliberately muddy by the various tax authorities.

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

8 minutes ago, jpinx said:

We need another thread for this topic

 

My point is that a person who chooses to live in Thailand and cuts *ALL* ties with UK, including taxation, should not get the vote.  If someone feels he can not set up the offshore accounts needed to get his UK-based pensions paid tax-free, that is unfortunate, but does not grant a voting right.  The vast majority of "expats" one encounters around the world are not really expats at all -- they're half-pats. 

 

You're quite right in that I'm a "half-pat" as I still pay UK income tax.

 

Presumably you don't understand that there are quite a number of us who chose to retire in Thailand and therefore our UK pensions are taxed in the UK?

 

So why should we not have a vote bearing in mind we're still paying UK income tax?

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, dick dasterdly said:

A tiny xenophobic group put up a poster, and that somehow represents everyone who voted brexit..... 

 

Although (to be fair), I'm willing to accept that the brexit vote gave impetus to the tiny percentage of those who are xenophobic.

 

Yes Dick, like I said, these extremists are having their day in the sun. It was, I think, sandyf who posted a link to an interview with a spokesman for a LGBT pressure group, who said that extremists are currently emboldened, but the number of extremists doesn't appear to be rising. I expect the security forces are already on their case (the extremist groups, that is).

Edited December 2, 2016 by Khun Han

[Khun Han]

48 minutes ago, jpinx said:

not really -- Ireland has a famously interesting attitude to corporation tax and there's always a queue of enquiries. 

 

What's happening is the journalists are scouting around for any little snippit of information to support their editors whim. 

 

There's also the issue of the EU making moves to clamp down on the tax affairs of international companies setting their bases in countries such as Ireland.

[AlexRich]

Zak Goldsmith loses the Richmond by-election to the Liberal Democrats ... looks like the 48% are having their voices heard?

 

More to come ...  

[AlexRich]

25 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Well, if for no other reason, to avoid voting with arrogant, England-hating know-it-alls.

 

What makes me laugh the most in these discussions is the moral high ground on racism and xenophobia taken by remainers who then go on to post broad, sweeping, cliché-ridden insults and put-downs of huge swathes of our population . They just can't see how stupid and hypocritical they show themselves to be every time they do it.

 

 

Anyone who wishes to remain in the EU is an England hater? As if it is your patriotic duty to vote Leave? Is it not possible to be a proud Englishman or woman and vote Remain? The people of Richmond seem to think so ... they've just given a bloody nose to 'hard brexit'. 

 

[dick dasterdly]

18 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

There's also the issue of the EU making moves to clamp down on the tax affairs of international companies setting their bases in countries such as Ireland.

I'm not interested enough to read up on this, but it seems likely.

 

Which is one of the reasons why I like some things about the EU - whilst seriously disliking other things.

 

If only the EU had made serious efforts to reform after the brexit vote.....  But that didn't happen .

[dick dasterdly]

17 minutes ago, AlexRich said:

Zak Goldsmith loses the Richmond by-election to the Liberal Democrats ... looks like the 48% are having their voices heard?

 

More to come ...  

Ummm, Richmond was a strong Conservative seat, so more shocking that they voted for the Lib Dems?

 

Less shocking that the strongly remain constituency voted against a leave supporter.

 

But I agree that it will be interesting to see the results if there is a leave constituency by-election in the near future?

[jpinx]

14 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I'm not interested enough to read up on this, but it seems likely.

 

Which is one of the reasons why I like some things about the EU - whilst seriously disliking other things.

 

If only the EU had made serious efforts to reform after the brexit vote.....  But that didn't happen .

I could not agree more -- they had every reason to get their house in order and allow Westminster to "sell" a "new deal" to the UK voters.  It's not as though it's *only* the UK that's pi**ed off with Brussels

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, jpinx said:

I could not agree more -- they had every reason to get their house in order and allow Westminster to "sell" a "new deal" to the UK voters.  It's not as though it's *only* the UK that's pi**ed off with Brussels

Which is why few of us would be suprised (now) if far-right/racist parties are elected in forthcoming EU elections.

[sandyf]

2 hours ago, billd766 said:

 

I agree with you, but OTOH would you want big business to run the country for themselves rather than for all the people?

It is an unfortunate fact of life Bill, not what is wanted but more about what is needed and wages comes high on the list, difficult to come by without big business.

I am not defending the bosses but the problems were not just down to them. Where I last lived I used to hear the ex steelworkers in the pub bragging about how they clock on at 10 and be home by midnight and get paid the full shift. They then blame the management for there only being 500 employed at that time as opposed to the the thousands in the past.

In that village it was inequality between working class and working class. Those that had milked the public sector sitting pretty with big pensions and their offspring catered for whereas  most of the younger generation were scratching for work.

[jpinx]

I've been looking through information on Norway's deal with the EU.  It's an unholy mess of EEA,  EFTA, EU, etc etc but here's something that might pass as factual.

 

Norway appears to have contributed about 869 million euros annually

http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/Financial-contribution/

 

for the privilege of trading in goods at a deficit of about 30 billion euros, and services surplus of about 10 billion - net deficit is about 20 billion.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/

 

I'd be very happy if someone can shoot holes in my arithmetic, but that looks like the equivalent of trade taxation of about 4.35%

 

UK was trading a 3.3billion deficit last April -- so roughly the UK trades a 40billion deficit annually

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/apr2016

 

In 2015 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £8.5 billion.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

 

So - UK is paying a "trading tax" of about 8.5 on 40 = 21.25%

 

Anyone able to make more sense of the numbers?

 

 

 

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

31 minutes ago, sandyf said:

It is an unfortunate fact of life Bill, not what is wanted but more about what is needed and wages comes high on the list, difficult to come by without big business.

I am not defending the bosses but the problems were not just down to them. Where I last lived I used to hear the ex steelworkers in the pub bragging about how they clock on at 10 and be home by midnight and get paid the full shift. They then blame the management for there only being 500 employed at that time as opposed to the the thousands in the past.

In that village it was inequality between working class and working class. Those that had milked the public sector sitting pretty with big pensions and their offspring catered for whereas  most of the younger generation were scratching for work.

Go away.... I can also tell you about my experiences working within big business, and how more was expected for less that started a few decades ago.

 

My favourite was when the Union Rep. where I worked admitted that he had no interest in the lower paid - only those on our grade edit - or above.....

 

I could also tell you about my time working in the public sector (thereafter) - when it also became obvious that the same attitude was at play for those at the lower end of the scale.  How do I know about this?  Because I was the poor sod looking at (and arguing against) the job descriptions and pay for those at the bottom.

 

Meanwhile, I was also seeing those (at the top) who had recently 'retired' being given increased salaries a few months before they retired or consultancies/new well-paid positions etc. etc.

 

And don't get me started on the 'recommended suppliers'!  Corruption at its worst.

Edited December 2, 2016 by dick dasterdly

[sandyf]

19 minutes ago, jpinx said:

I've been looking through information on Norway's deal with the EU.  It's an unholy mess of EEA,  EFTA, EU, etc etc but here's something that might pass as factual.

 

Norway appears to have contributed about 869 million euros annually

http://www.eu-norway.org/eu/Financial-contribution/

 

for the privilege of trading in goods at a deficit of about 30 billion euros, and services surplus of about 10 billion - net deficit is about 20 billion.

http://ec.europa.eu/trade/policy/countries-and-regions/countries/norway/

 

I'd be very happy if someone can shoot holes in my arithmetic, but that looks like the equivalent of trade taxation of about 4.35%

 

UK was trading a 3.3billion deficit last April -- so roughly the UK trades a 40billion deficit annually

https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/nationalaccounts/balanceofpayments/bulletins/uktrade/apr2016

 

In 2015 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was £4.5 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £8.5 billion.

https://fullfact.org/europe/our-eu-membership-fee-55-million/

 

So - UK is paying a "trading tax" of about 8.5 on 40 = 21.25%

 

Anyone able to make more sense of the numbers?

 

 

 

 

 

In 2015, the UK's ‘public sector receipts’ amounted to £4.5 billion

[RuamRudy]

 
What an "interesting" person Will (with 2 ll) Self is.
 
More interestingly you seem to hold him in high regard.
 
This is what Wikipedia says about him. No I made no contributions to the article.
 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Will_Self
 
 

He certainly is interesting, and has led a very colourful and creative life. Is there any particular reason that he should not be held in regard?

[dick dasterdly]

2 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

He certainly is interesting, and has led a very colourful and creative life. Is there any particular reason that he should not be held in regard?

Because he's just someone else with an opinion?

[RuamRudy]

48 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Because he's just someone else with an opinion?

 

Then why the need to link the Wikipedia article? With out without the link, he is just another person with an opinion.

[dick dasterdly]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Then why the need to link the Wikipedia article? With out without the link, he is just another person with an opinion.

Because someone posted his view as if it was an important enough to be included on this thread?

[dick dasterdly]

9 hours ago, Loeilad said:

As Wil Self said

"Not all Brexiteers are racist, but all racists are Brexiteers"

 

So why would you vote with the racists?

I was annoyed enough to find the poster that quoted Wil Self - as if his quote was worthy, or had any relevance.

[Loeilad]

5 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

I was annoyed enough to find the poster that quoted Wil Self - as if his quote was worthy, or had any relevance.

It seems to be a common practice amongst Brexiteers to attack the messenger rather than the message - a sign of poor agruing abilities