AlexRich Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 37 minutes ago, jpinx said: The option for a "hard" Brexit only existed immediately after the result was announced and if Camoron had fulfilled his promises to the electorate. He could have invoked Art50 immediately and we would be out by now -- the short term pain would have passed and people would have got what they voted for. Unfortunately the spineless politician ran away from his responsibilities and left everyone wondering what was so terrible that it scared the same PM away after his much vaunted promises of acting on the will of the people. The subsequent selection of a new PM, and the extensive debates on how to proceed have meant the moment for a hard Brexit is long past. Now we are faced with some indescribably messy fudge being concocted and needing those same treacherous MP's to debate and pass in a vote, all of which creates opportunities for the remainers to fabricate as many excuses as they can to deflect the process. The only, but considerable, advantage of the delay is that there are numerous elections across Europe, most of which are proving to be less predictable as time goes by, and which are more likely to favour a reasonble Brexit, if not a total re-structuring of the administration in Brussels so that the EU becomes less EU and much more EFTA. If invoking Article 50 was something that would cause a temporary disruption, with only short term pain, why did May not do so on her first day? Because the process is a complex and convoluted one, and adding to that is that fact that the UK don't have the personnel trained to deal with it. For or against Brexit, these are the facts of the matter ... something that Davis is conceding, despite saying the opposite before the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 37 minutes ago, jpinx said: The option for a "hard" Brexit only existed immediately after the result was announced and if Camoron had fulfilled his promises to the electorate. He could have invoked Art50 immediately and we would be out by now -- the short term pain would have passed and people would have got what they voted for. Unfortunately the spineless politician ran away from his responsibilities and left everyone wondering what was so terrible that it scared the same PM away after his much vaunted promises of acting on the will of the people. The subsequent selection of a new PM, and the extensive debates on how to proceed have meant the moment for a hard Brexit is long past. Now we are faced with some indescribably messy fudge being concocted and needing those same treacherous MP's to debate and pass in a vote, all of which creates opportunities for the remainers to fabricate as many excuses as they can to deflect the process. The only, but considerable, advantage of the delay is that there are numerous elections across Europe, most of which are proving to be less predictable as time goes by, and which are more likely to favour a reasonble Brexit, if not a total re-structuring of the administration in Brussels so that the EU becomes less EU and much more EFTA. You're sounding ever so slightly shrill this morning, jpinx! Richmond shook you up a little? I wonder what would have happened if Cameron had lit the blue touch paper? Would it subsequently have been declared void? Anyway, the good thing is that a proper debate is certainly taking place now. One thing I don't understand; if the Brexiteers are so sure of their majority, why are they so against another vote? It occurs that it would be sensible to verify the situation after people have had a real opportunity for reflection. It is, after all, probably the biggest decision for a generation ? (I can hear the screams of protest from here! We don't want another vote, we got lucky and certainly don't want to chance our hand ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Han Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 They keep saying they've accepted the result of the referendum, but they keep asking for a second referendum. Their logic's a bit muddled, isn't it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 1 hour ago, AlexRich said: If invoking Article 50 was something that would cause a temporary disruption, with only short term pain, why did May not do so on her first day? Because the process is a complex and convoluted one, and adding to that is that fact that the UK don't have the personnel trained to deal with it. For or against Brexit, these are the facts of the matter ... something that Davis is conceding, despite saying the opposite before the vote. The opportunity only existed for a day or 2 -- until Camoron jumped ship. Once that happened there was no real opportunity to "surf the wave" of the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 1 hour ago, Grouse said: You're sounding ever so slightly shrill this morning, jpinx! Richmond shook you up a little? I wonder what would have happened if Cameron had lit the blue touch paper? Would it subsequently have been declared void? Anyway, the good thing is that a proper debate is certainly taking place now. One thing I don't understand; if the Brexiteers are so sure of their majority, why are they so against another vote? It occurs that it would be sensible to verify the situation after people have had a real opportunity for reflection. It is, after all, probably the biggest decision for a generation ? (I can hear the screams of protest from here! We don't want another vote, we got lucky and certainly don't want to chance our hand ?) The usual personal commentary based on my deep inferiority complex. What a silly boy you are . If Camoron had the courage of his promises the job would be done by now. Certainly it would have been hard and messy, but that instant action was what was promised before the vote. Speculating on how it would it have worked out is not interesting, since reality has moved on and we are now looking down a corridor of revolving doors of the various national elections across Europe, and that landscape is not going to remain the same. The up-coming appeal will be the first step along the new path, but it's impossible to see far down the road due to the potential for massive changes in other member countries. A second referendum so quickly would seriously annoy everyone on both sides and the MP's are not about to jump from the frying pan they are in into the fire a new referendum would certainly ignite. Given the very large turnout at the last referendum -- bigger than that at the previous General Election -- there is little appetite for "confirmation". It's not as though any of the polls have been showing any large change in voting intentions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockingrobin Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 3 hours ago, Grouse said: You're sounding ever so slightly shrill this morning, jpinx! Richmond shook you up a little? I wonder what would have happened if Cameron had lit the blue touch paper? Would it subsequently have been declared void? Anyway, the good thing is that a proper debate is certainly taking place now. One thing I don't understand; if the Brexiteers are so sure of their majority, why are they so against another vote? It occurs that it would be sensible to verify the situation after people have had a real opportunity for reflection. It is, after all, probably the biggest decision for a generation ? (I can hear the screams of protest from here! We don't want another vote, we got lucky and certainly don't want to chance our hand ?) If Cameron had invoked Art 50 it still would have gone to the judiciary, with the risk of UK being in breach of its international obligations and law Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 3 hours ago, Khun Han said: They keep saying they've accepted the result of the referendum, but they keep asking for a second referendum. Their logic's a bit muddled, isn't it? Not if it's a referendum on the terms negotiated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 1 hour ago, jpinx said: The opportunity only existed for a day or 2 -- until Camoron jumped ship. Once that happened there was no real opportunity to "surf the wave" of the result. You could have done it at any time ... there's a reason they haven't, and it's got nothing to do with 'waves'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 18 minutes ago, rockingrobin said: If Cameron had invoked Art 50 it still would have gone to the judiciary, with the risk of UK being in breach of its international obligations and law Unless you were party to Camoron's plans when the referendum was set up - you can not expect anyone to believe that statement. His adamant promise was to enact the result of the referendum, but he made absolutely no attempt to come good on that promise. Given his reaction to the result, one is inclined to think that realisation dawned on him and he handed the poisoned chalice to TM. Make no mistake -- the current mess is entirely of Camoron's making and I hope is is somehow hauled before some august body who will have the power to sanction him heavily. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 1 minute ago, AlexRich said: You could have done it at any time ... there's a reason they haven't, and it's got nothing to do with 'waves'. You are such a buffoon .. *I* could never have done anything........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 1 hour ago, jpinx said: The usual personal commentary based on my deep inferiority complex. What a silly boy you are . If Camoron had the courage of his promises the job would be done by now. Certainly it would have been hard and messy, but that instant action was what was promised before the vote. Speculating on how it would it have worked out is not interesting, since reality has moved on and we are now looking down a corridor of revolving doors of the various national elections across Europe, and that landscape is not going to remain the same. The up-coming appeal will be the first step along the new path, but it's impossible to see far down the road due to the potential for massive changes in other member countries. A second referendum so quickly would seriously annoy everyone on both sides and the MP's are not about to jump from the frying pan they are in into the fire a new referendum would certainly ignite. Given the very large turnout at the last referendum -- bigger than that at the previous General Election -- there is little appetite for "confirmation". It's not as though any of the polls have been showing any large change in voting intentions. The voting intentions in Richmond seem to have shifted significantly? The Liberals claim that they received votes from Brexit voters who don't like the way that the vote has been hijacked by the extremists ... of course they don't want another vote ... they'd lose it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 1 minute ago, jpinx said: You are such a buffoon .. *I* could never have done anything........ You're argument is all over the place ... if Cameron could have done it, so could his successor. "Surf the wave of the result"? What complete and utter nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 4 hours ago, jpinx said: The usual personal commentary based on my deep inferiority complex. What a silly boy you are . If Camoron had the courage of his promises the job would be done by now. Certainly it would have been hard and messy, but that instant action was what was promised before the vote. Speculating on how it would it have worked out is not interesting, since reality has moved on and we are now looking down a corridor of revolving doors of the various national elections across Europe, and that landscape is not going to remain the same. The up-coming appeal will be the first step along the new path, but it's impossible to see far down the road due to the potential for massive changes in other member countries. A second referendum so quickly would seriously annoy everyone on both sides and the MP's are not about to jump from the frying pan they are in into the fire a new referendum would certainly ignite. Given the very large turnout at the last referendum -- bigger than that at the previous General Election -- there is little appetite for "confirmation". It's not as though any of the polls have been showing any large change in voting intentions. The Blame Cameron (with the persistently childish name mispelling) and Not Another Referendum confusing opinion with legal options may play to the odd nutty hard brexit website but hardly washes here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SheungWan Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 On 12/3/2016 at 10:29 PM, billd766 said: Really? So Zac Goldsmith was an official Tory candidate and supported all the way by the Tory party? And the official UKIP candidate was also Zac Goldsmith. So let me try to understand your post. Zac Goldsmith standing as an independent for the seat he had resigned from was actually second place. So where did he come as an official Tory candidate and when did he he join UKIP? Or is the truth for want of a better term that there was NO Tory or UKIP candidate? I cannot understand how you have come to the conclusion so differently to the official election results. Please explain how you got there. Zac Goldsmith, not to be confused with the Zac Goldsmith defeated Tory Party candidate for London Mayor and certainly not to be confused with the Richmond by-election candidate campaigned for by Conservative MPs William Rees Mogg, Dr Tania Mathias and Theresa Villiers. Said Mr Rees Mogg about the totally unrelated Zac Goldsmith 'The Conservative Party need people like him'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 The Austrian far right candidate loses the election. Looks like good news for the EU. Italian referendum to come ... Renzi may well lose ... let's see? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 2 hours ago, AlexRich said: The Austrian far right candidate loses the election. Looks like good news for the EU. Italian referendum to come ... Renzi may well lose ... let's see? Great news! So much for Farage... According to Farage, Austria will be tomorrow's next Western country to the United Kingdom and the United States, whose citizens are opposed to the government. He thus played on the British vote for an EU exit in June and the victory of the right-wing populist Donald Trump in the US presidential election in November. "I see 2016 as a year of a political revolution. Two revolutions, one in the United Kingdom, one in the US. It is about national-state democracy, the restoration of control over our lives and our future orientation. " Guess where I'm going skiing in February? Lech of course! Such civilised people.... Beers all round! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 23 minutes ago, Grouse said: Great news! So much for Farage... According to Farage, Austria will be tomorrow's next Western country to the United Kingdom and the United States, whose citizens are opposed to the government. He thus played on the British vote for an EU exit in June and the victory of the right-wing populist Donald Trump in the US presidential election in November. "I see 2016 as a year of a political revolution. Two revolutions, one in the United Kingdom, one in the US. It is about national-state democracy, the restoration of control over our lives and our future orientation. " Guess where I'm going skiing in February? Lech of course! Such civilised people.... Beers all round! Sgt Rock is crying into his beer ... another prediction bites the dust! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 And the Italians just voted to accept reform so another failure for the EU doomsayers! Now, when are these French elections? And where do I sign up for EU citizenship? Off to bed smiling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 2 minutes ago, Grouse said: And the Italians just voted to accept reform so another failure for the EU doomsayers! Now, when are these French elections? And where do I sign up for EU citizenship? Off to bed smiling! I'm watching Sky News and the exit polls are predicting a heavy defeat for Renzi? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 (edited) 16 minutes ago, AlexRich said: I'm watching Sky News and the exit polls are predicting a heavy defeat for Renzi? 16 minutes ago, AlexRich said: I'm watching Sky News and the exit polls are predicting a heavy defeat for Renzi? Maybe my Spanish is getting worse but they are showing 53/47 to Renzi on local TV here in Aragon. Mind you, only exit polls so may be wrong? ? Edited December 4, 2016 by Grouse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grouse Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 35 minutes ago, Grouse said: Maybe my Spanish is getting worse but they are showing 53/47 to Renzi on local TV here in Aragon. Mind you, only exit polls so may be wrong? ? Yep! Looks like I was wrong. I'll stick to German in future. Sorry. ?. Glum now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 8 hours ago, Grouse said: Great news! So much for Farage... According to Farage, Austria will be tomorrow's next Western country to the United Kingdom and the United States, whose citizens are opposed to the government. He thus played on the British vote for an EU exit in June and the victory of the right-wing populist Donald Trump in the US presidential election in November. "I see 2016 as a year of a political revolution. Two revolutions, one in the United Kingdom, one in the US. It is about national-state democracy, the restoration of control over our lives and our future orientation. " Guess where I'm going skiing in February? Lech of course! Such civilised people.... Beers all round! If we are drinking to the Italians I will be up for that. Farage was right about that one and there are more to come. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loeilad Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 2 minutes ago, Laughing Gravy said: If we are drinking to the Italians I will be up for that. Farage was right about that one and there are more to come. LG - how do you see the UK in 5 years time? What would you envisage for the UK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 8 hours ago, AlexRich said: Sgt Rock is crying into his beer ... another prediction bites the dust! Yes you are probably right, especially as the tears are of joy and laughter. The Italians have just spoken with a resounding two fingers up. I would rush and get citizenship of the EU fast, as the way it is going the French and Germans might be next leaving slim pickings. Slovenia, Lithuania and Bulgaria may accept you but I wouldn't count on it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 Just now, Loeilad said: LG - how do you see the UK in 5 years time? What would you envisage for the UK? A sovereign country making its own rules and laws. Selectively choosing who can come and work in the country based on qualifications experience and availability. There are still 1.7 million people unemployed in the UK. Get them back working. I also want to change the culture that is prevalent at present with being scared to be British, English, Scottish, Welsh or Northern Irish (Irish). Frightened of saying anything against certain sectors of the people who are clearing using the UK's liberalism and goodwill who constantly play the racist card. Stop foreign aid going to countries that clearly do not need it. India doesn't need it when it spends billions on sending someone to space. Being allowed without penalty to trade with any country it chooses and increasing exports. Allowing people to become British Citizens who integrate and take a means test of suitability. I would envisage the UK to be an integral part of the world, as it still is but without being told by Brussels fat cats what and how to do it. I also want this for the other EU countries so their identity and cultures are not eroded. That its for a start. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Gravy Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 5 hours ago, AlexRich said: I'm watching Sky News and the exit polls are predicting a heavy defeat for Renzi? Now this is a election that the majority of people have spoken for the whole country, not some poxy by election in Luvvy land (Richmond) that is so middle class and selective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said: Yes you are probably right, especially as the tears are of joy and laughter. The Italians have just spoken with a resounding two fingers up. I would rush and get citizenship of the EU fast, as the way it is going the French and Germans might be next leaving slim pickings. Slovenia, Lithuania and Bulgaria may accept you but I wouldn't count on it. I'm already registered in an EU country ... with a warm and sunny climate. The Italian vote is no shock to me ... it was widely predicted. As for France and Germany, I really don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlexRich Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 2 hours ago, Laughing Gravy said: Now this is a election that the majority of people have spoken for the whole country, not some poxy by election in Luvvy land (Richmond) that is so middle class and selective. It's a rejection of Renzi, not a rejection of the EU ... as bad as Brexit will be for the UK, the Italians would create chaos for themselves ... and unfortunately the UK ... we are not in a protective bubble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 23 hours ago, sandyf said: Your words " but I do wonder how Joe Public is expected to make an "informed decision" when all that is available to him is the spinning top that is the mockery of political truth. " You wonder how they could make an "informed decision" but deny the outcome could be an "uninformed decision". Good one. You really don't understand the simplest concepts - do you? Informed by false promises and political lies is not "informed". 17 hours ago, rockingrobin said: If Cameron had invoked Art 50 it still would have gone to the judiciary, with the risk of UK being in breach of its international obligations and law That is why it would have been called a "Hard Brexit" 20 hours ago, AlexRich said: If invoking Article 50 was something that would cause a temporary disruption, with only short term pain, why did May not do so on her first day? Because the process is a complex and convoluted one, and adding to that is that fact that the UK don't have the personnel trained to deal with it. For or against Brexit, these are the facts of the matter ... something that Davis is conceding, despite saying the opposite before the vote. ...because May was not the one who had promised enaction of the result. Camoron is the only person who made the promise, had the opportunity, had the power, but refused his obligations. 16 hours ago, AlexRich said: Not if it's a referendum on the terms negotiated. Really ??? Clutching at straws now are you? 16 hours ago, AlexRich said: 14 hours ago, SheungWan said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jpinx Posted December 5, 2016 Share Posted December 5, 2016 2 hours ago, Loeilad said: LG - how do you see the UK in 5 years time? What would you envisage for the UK? More importantly -- how do *you* see the UK in 5 years time? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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