Corruption

[kayo]

Right...

[London Crocodile]

I know.

[davidjtayler]

THERE'S A SPY IN THE HOUSE !

Clear the lobby ... clear the lobby ...! (upper crust voice )

[marshbags]

I know.

Taking your one liners into account in not only this topic but several others your history shows.

It may be due to an eloquence situation in which case we should make allowances.

On the other hand you could come across as a thread saboteur ( troll ) in which case you should be ignored and not allowed to cause the havoc and eventually closure of the thread.

marshbags

[meemiathai]

A great article in my humble opinion and spot on.

marshbags

Agreed.

[Briggsy]

I have posted the effects of corruption cut and pasted from Wikipedia. Perhaps someone recognises some of these effects or has even personally suffered as a result.

Effects on politics, administration, and institutions

Corruption poses a serious development challenge. In the political realm, it undermines democracy and good governance by flouting or even subverting formal processes. Corruption in elections and in legislative bodies reduces accountability and distorts representation in policymaking; corruption in the judiciary compromises the rule of law; and corruption in public administration results in the unfair provision of services. More generally, corruption erodes the institutional capacity of government as procedures are disregarded, resources are siphoned off, and public offices are bought and sold. At the same time, corruption undermines the legitimacy of government and such democratic values as trust and tolerance. See also: Good governance

[edit] Economic effects

Corruption also undermines economic development by generating considerable distortions and inefficiency. In the private sector, corruption increases the cost of business through the price of illicit payments themselves, the management cost of negotiating with officials, and the risk of breached agreements or detection. Although some claim corruption reduces costs by cutting red tape, the availability of bribes can also induce officials to contrive new rules and delays. Openly removing costly and lengthy regulations are better than covertly allowing them to be bypassed by using bribes. Where corruption inflates the cost of business, it also distorts the playing field, shielding firms with connections from competition and thereby sustaining inefficient firms.

Corruption also generates economic distortions in the public sector by diverting public investment into capital projects where bribes and kickbacks are more plentiful. Officials may increase the technical complexity of public sector projects to conceal or pave way for such dealings, thus further distorting investment. Corruption also lowers compliance with construction, environmental, or other regulations, reduces the quality of government services and infrastructure, and increases budgetary pressures on government.

Economists argue that one of the factors behind the differing economic development in Africa and Asia is that in the former, corruption has primarily taken the form of rent extraction with the resulting financial capital moved overseas rather invested at home (hence the stereotypical, but sadly often accurate, image of African dictators having Swiss bank accounts). University of Massachusetts researchers estimated that from 1970 to 1996, capital flight from 30 sub-Saharan countries totaled $187bn, exceeding those nations' external debts.[1] (The results, expressed in retarded or suppressed development, have been modeled in theory by economist Mancur Olson.) In the case of Africa, one of the factors for this behavior was political instability, and the fact that new governments often confiscated previous government's corruptly-obtained assets. This encouraged officials to stash their wealth abroad, out of reach of any future expropriation. In contrast, corrupt administrations in Asia like Suharto's have often taken a cut on everything (requiring bribes), but otherwise provided more of the conditions for development, through infrastructure investment, law and order, etc.

[Travel2003]

As (probably) mentioned before:

Corruption is the cancer in any society.

rgds

Sailor

[marshbags]

As (probably) mentioned before:

Corruption is the cancer in any society.

rgds

Sailor

It is also carried out at the expense of those in society who can least afford to loose from it.

In my humble opinion as always.

marshbags

[Donz]

Whats wrong with Corruption?

If I had the chance I would be corrupt with a capital C.

If I was a cop in thailand I would be rich

[Mobi]

Whats wrong with Corruption?

If I had the chance I would be corrupt with a capital C.

If I was a cop in thailand I would be rich

Yes... well... I suppose that just about says it all......

[Johpa]

A great article in my humble opinion and spot on.

marshbags

Agreed.

Actually a pathetic article that just so happens supports The Nations new agenda to place the blame for the need for a military coup on the rural poor and portray the rural folks in a very negative light. Yes it is true that poor people load up a motorbike with the family, but they do the same in many other poor Asian nations. Those who run red lights and drive without helmets are far more typically young teenagers, many from wealthy families. The entire article is stereo-type drivel that cleverly hides its ethnic racist undertones.

The article gets corruption in Thailand arse-backwards, a common logical flaw even seen in important annual speeches decrying corruption in Thailand. The doggy doo doo (corruption) only flows downhill, only money seems to flow uphill.

But the new political agenda of The Nation, and its mouthpiece Sondhi, is to portray the poor as the root of all the problems in Thailand and to slowly remove them from any political considerations. The Bangkok elite has its panties out of alignment over the fact that Taksin gave what they perceive as their money to the rural poor. Yet what did Khunying Jaruvan estimate that corruption in state-related projects alone cost? I think the figure was something like 400 billion baht (US$9.7 billion) per annum. And look what she got for her troubles.

The Nation, Sondhi, and the Bangkok elite want to remove the rural poor from the equation so that nary a sataang leaves the capital as every sataang saved from the hands of the poor is one more sataang going into their own greedy hands. And now they have many in the ex-pat community believing in this crap.

[meemiathai]

A great article in my humble opinion and spot on.

marshbags

Agreed.

Actually a pathetic article that just so happens supports The Nations new agenda to place the blame for the need for a military coup on the rural poor and portray the rural folks in a very negative light. Yes it is true that poor people load up a motorbike with the family, but they do the same in many other poor Asian nations. Those who run red lights and drive without helmets are far more typically young teenagers, many from wealthy families. The entire article is stereo-type drivel that cleverly hides its ethnic racist undertones.

The article gets corruption in Thailand arse-backwards, a common logical flaw even seen in important annual speeches decrying corruption in Thailand. The doggy doo doo (corruption) only flows downhill, only money seems to flow uphill.

But the new political agenda of The Nation, and its mouthpiece Sondhi, is to portray the poor as the root of all the problems in Thailand and to slowly remove them from any political considerations. The Bangkok elite has its panties out of alignment over the fact that Taksin gave what they perceive as their money to the rural poor. Yet what did Khunying Jaruvan estimate that corruption in state-related projects alone cost? I think the figure was something like 400 billion baht (US$9.7 billion) per annum. And look what she got for her troubles.

The Nation, Sondhi, and the Bangkok elite want to remove the rural poor from the equation so that nary a sataang leaves the capital as every sataang saved from the hands of the poor is one more sataang going into their own greedy hands. And now they have many in the ex-pat community believing in this crap.

Wow! Never thought the article had so much hidden meaning in it.

[Grover]

Wow! Never thought the article had so much hidden meaning in it.

If it doesn't fit, force it !!

[jumnien]

A great article in my humble opinion and spot on.

marshbags

Agreed.

Actually a pathetic article that just so happens supports The Nations new agenda to place the blame for the need for a military coup on the rural poor and portray the rural folks in a very negative light. Yes it is true that poor people load up a motorbike with the family, but they do the same in many other poor Asian nations. Those who run red lights and drive without helmets are far more typically young teenagers, many from wealthy families. The entire article is stereo-type drivel that cleverly hides its ethnic racist undertones.

The article gets corruption in Thailand arse-backwards, a common logical flaw even seen in important annual speeches decrying corruption in Thailand. The doggy doo doo (corruption) only flows downhill, only money seems to flow uphill.

But the new political agenda of The Nation, and its mouthpiece Sondhi, is to portray the poor as the root of all the problems in Thailand and to slowly remove them from any political considerations. The Bangkok elite has its panties out of alignment over the fact that Taksin gave what they perceive as their money to the rural poor. Yet what did Khunying Jaruvan estimate that corruption in state-related projects alone cost? I think the figure was something like 400 billion baht (US$9.7 billion) per annum. And look what she got for her troubles.

The Nation, Sondhi, and the Bangkok elite want to remove the rural poor from the equation so that nary a sataang leaves the capital as every sataang saved from the hands of the poor is one more sataang going into their own greedy hands. And now they have many in the ex-pat community believing in this crap.

Great observation, johpa! I'm sure you will meet some strong opposition from the right-wingers who wanted to demonize Thaksin so they can take his place!

[soi lurker]

Thankyou for an interesting article! Corruption is everywhere, its just easier to see in some countries, hidden in others. But its always there......

[womble]

At least in Thailand everyone gets a chance, even the poor. In the west you need to already be rich and powerful to get into the club. It's also easy to know who to pay as they make them wear uniforms here.

[womble]

At least in Thailand everyone gets a chance, even the poor. In the west you need to already be rich and powerful to get into the club. It's also easy to know who to pay as they make them wear uniforms here.

[thaihome]

Wow! Never thought the article had so much hidden meaning in it.

Many articles in the English press are saying something completely different than what is written. There is no doubt that Thaksin and TRT scared the sh*t out of most of the elite. His use of the upcountry bosses in order to look like he had the support of the rural people worried them. When in fact all he had was the idea create a politcal party to fund the local bosses who tell the people how to vote anyway.

The vote buying, police bribes, and school tuitions are nothing compared to the real corruption that goes on. It is estimated the price of almost every contract, and not just gov contracts, includes a 3-8% payoff.

Is should be noted this is not unique to Thailand and is actually worse in most developing countries, including China. The big pay-offs in Thailand are very, very well hidden and subtle.

TH

[meemiathai]

I have this question in my mind for quite a long time.

Does Mr Thaksin truely in his heart love his country Thailand?

And how can one get to a position to be able to run an already corrupted country(comparatively) if one doesn't use tricks?

Don't tell me the US Presidents or the UK's PMs never bent things to survive..... ?

[Naam]

I have posted the effects of corruption cut and pasted from Wikipedia. Perhaps someone recognises some of these effects or has even personally suffered as a result.

i do recognize the effects mentioned but having lived and worked in countries where corruption is rampant i never suffered but benefitted from it. corruption makes life much more comfortable for somebody who is willing to shell out a fistful of dollars (or whatever currency is accepted) to achieve the best possible results in the shortest time. that goes for private life and especially for a CEO who runs a company in a corrupt country. the latter might have to shell out millions instead of fistfuls to be successful.

life is difficult. let's make the best of it because we can't change it.

[HenryB]

As (probably) mentioned before:

Corruption is the cancer in any society.

rgds

Sailor

Corruption in the west is the worst than Asia

We can all learn from Thailand India China.

I am lucky in my country of Pakistan we have zero corruption.

Just read the newspapers

Edited December 4, 2006 by HenryB

[Thaddeus]

Forgot the medication again this morning Henry?

[kmart]

Is HenryB Pakistan's answer to Borat?

[kmart]

I have this question in my mind for quite a long time.

Does Mr Thaksin truely in his heart love his country Thailand?

And how can one get to a position to be able to run an already corrupted country(comparatively) if one doesn't use tricks?

Don't tell me the US Presidents or the UK's PMs never bent things to survive..... ?

Mr Thaksin probably loves Thailand more than most for being so gullible.......

Same as any other scoundrel who ever flew the flag whilst robbing their country blind.

Every country in the world has bent politicians. What usually motivates them should ideally disqualify them at the start.

Its just a question of degrees/ what we let them get away with.

[toptuan]

Last week, I was just introduced to the "Sufficiency Economy Philosophy" created and promoted by His Majesty the King of Thailand. Among other things, it deals with this issue of crade-to-grave corruption, and needing to solve Thailand's problems from the grassroots upward.

Because of the global relevance of this philosophy, and his life-long modeling of its premises, Thailand's King was awarded the UN's first ever Human Development Lifetime Achievement Award.

Some relevant exceprts below from the Bangkok Post....

UN HONOURS KING

Sufficiency economy philosophy lauded

ACHARA ASHAYAGACHAT

United Nations Secretary-General Kofi Annan yesterday presented His Majesty the King with a lifetime achievement award in recognition of the global relevance of his call for a sufficiency approach to development....''If human development is about putting people first, there can be no better advocate for it than His Majesty,'' Mr Annan told a panel discussion at the Foreign Ministry.

''As the world's 'Development King', His Majesty reached out to the poorest and the most vulnerable people of Thailand, listened to their problems, and empowered them to take their lives into their own hands,'' Mr Annan said.

The King's ''visionary thinking'' helped shape global development dialogue, he added.

''His Majesty's 'sufficiency economy' philosophy — emphasising moderation, responsible consumption...is of great relevance to communities everywhere....

...Privy Council chairman Prem Tinsulanonda said the King's philosophy had helped strengthen the country's moral fibre by promoting honesty and integrity...'Knowledge should be applied with prudence, and moral values such as integrity, patience and perseverance are necessary to give rise to sufficiency.''

The concept was as much applicable to the largest industrial conglomerate as to the smallest, most remote village, he said.

Pim Totankum, a 49-year-old farmer from Sakon Nakhon, recited three poems in praise of the sufficiency principle. ''The King's sufficiency economy philosophy has changed my life,'' she said. No longer in debt, she now has a sustainable living and has sent her two younger children to university.

You can easily Google this and read more in detail about the published works which explain the King's approach to economy and the underlying societal values which should mold it.

I think teachers in Thailand are in a great position to model and teach the basic fundamentals of this philosophy, in order to train up a generation of Thais with high ethics not only in business but in all walks of life.

Edited December 4, 2006 by toptuan

[ashacat]

At least in Thailand everyone gets a chance, even the poor. In the west you need to already be rich and powerful to get into the club.quote]

What absolute rubbish!!

Edited December 4, 2006 by ashacat

[Travel2003]

As (probably) mentioned before:

Corruption is the cancer in any society.

rgds

Sailor

Corruption in the west is the worst than Asia

We can all learn from Thailand India China.

I am lucky in my country of Pakistan we have zero corruption.

Just read the newspapers

I choose to believe that was a joke.

My work has taken me to almost 90 countries over the years.

Yes, corruption is more or less everywhere.

BUT, the differences are there.

Most (maybe not all) western countries do not accept this, even if it is there.

Many (far from all of course) countries in South America, Central America, Africa, and Asia, seem to have more or less accepted that this problem will not go away, so they try to work with it instead.

The 6 countries which absolutely top my list, regarding corrupt "officials" are India, Pakistan, Egypt, Myanmar, China, and Brazil.

Last time in India, 35 officials (!!!) came onboard. Not one passport would be stamped, the customs would not even see the papers, before they all had their small bags filled with spirits and cigarettes.

We have even experienced Custom Officers (in Egypt) whom demanded us to "break the bonded stores", in order to let them shop for free, before they cleared the ship!

We had "maritime pilots" in Myanmar whom refused to leave the ship before we filled up their bags.

The same happened in China last year.

My list goes on and on.

Having listed these countries, of course, I don't claim that the entire societies there are corrupt.

But it seems to be a trend.

All shipping companies in the world (yes absolutely all), have an expense account for this purpose.

Thailand, with its fairly visible "daily corruption" is actually not even on my top 10 list.

rgds

Sailor

[marshbags]

QUOTE(HenryB @ 2006-12-04 05:56:49)

Corruption in the west is the worst than Asia

We can all learn from Thailand India China.

I am lucky in my country of Pakistan we have zero corruption.

Just read the newspapers

Forgot the medication again this morning Henry?

marshbags

Edited December 4, 2006 by marshbags

[Donz]

whats wrong with corruption?

[marshbags]

His Majesty gives royal blessing for Govt

December 4, 2006 : Last updated 05:30 pm (Thai local time)

His Majesty the King gave the royal blessing for the government to plough through various hurdles and resolve grievances for the people.

His Majesty granted an audience and delivered the royal speech to well wishers led by Prime Minister Surayud Chulanont at Chitralada Villa, Dusit Palace Monday on the eve of his birthday.

"The government comprises elders who have assumed office out of personal sacrifice when the country faces difficulty," the King said.

Drawing on his experience as an elder, he encouraged elderly authorities to set example and serve the public instead of standing idly at the sidelines.

"Some of you may have come out of your retirement in order to salvage the country. Do your job in the best way you can even though you may face some criticisms," he said.

His Majesty's birthday speech focused on the water management to solve the inundation in the central region. The King said his remarks would not touch on politics which he found it boring.

The Nation

Unquote

Respectfully

marshbags

Edited December 4, 2006 by marshbags