Massive canals project to be explained

[Basil B]

8 hours ago, Loeilad said:

loce big engineering projects - this one has been in te mill for over 400 years, so is it about time?

Sadly the world has changed and increased traffic generated is at best a double edged sword, burt give the regions records on civil rights and environmental issues it is likely to be just another massive fiasco that descends into an eco-disaster and brings nothing to Thailand......except international embarrassment.....the Chinese will love it. everything in China now points west - tey fear Trumps 45% duties and wanrt access in as many ways to India and Europe for Western China - this will be just another shortcut for them. by the time they've lent Thailand all the cash, engineering and know-how, it will be free for them for decades.

 

If they ever start to build it is one thing, but like so many other projects finishing it is something else... 

[BSJ]

It's such an insanely grand idea it would have to work. What does it matter if a few frogs and lizards have to move to higher ground.

 

Start now and make it happen I say.  

[halloween]

17 hours ago, harrry said:

Interestingly there is apparently now rivers on both sides which enable very small boats to pass across.

 

Small enough to carry? Applying even the simplest scientific law such as "water runs downhill" makes your concept look like rubbish.

[Loeilad]

2 hours ago, BSJ said:

It's such an insanely grand idea it would have to work. What does it matter if a few frogs and lizards have to move to higher ground.

 

Start now and make it happen I say.  

that shows a basic misunderstanding of how environmental issues work, in particular pertaining to wildlife.

[Loeilad]

1 hour ago, halloween said:

Small enough to carry? Applying even the simplest scientific law such as "water runs downhill" makes your concept look like rubbish.

I would suggest that shows you have no understanding of river navigation or canal building

[Loeilad]

2 hours ago, Basil B said:

 

If they ever start to build it is one thing, but like so many other projects finishing it is something else... 

Which major civil engineering projects remain unfinished in Thailand?

[kannot]

14 hours ago, ddavidovsky said:

 

Only leaked and denied then.

 

It's obvious that the project will only go ahead with Chinese backing. Equally obvious that the Thai government want to do it but are not ready to commit to anything just yet, given political instability. Their strategy is clearly to prime the population for it psychologically by periodically feeding it to the media.

 

More than anything they are afraid of angry crowds on the street and something like this could well bring them out once the full details of the displacement and environmental destruction it will cause are known. The government is just waiting.

id  be  surprised any  "Thais" would  object  to environmental  destruction they  certainly dont  give a siht about  anywhere  else in Thailand

[kannot]

6 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

Which major civil engineering projects remain unfinished in Thailand?

lots of overhead motorways  just "stop" mid air  in  BKK

[Loeilad]

39 minutes ago, kannot said:

lots of overhead motorways  just "stop" mid air  in  BKK

..and that's the basis of your argument? I think you need to review your perception of urban planning for as start and then think about what or isn't a major civil engineering project.

Edited November 13, 2016 by Loeilad

[Loeilad]

It would appear that the project depends entirely on the Chinese and is really more strategic than economic. 

 

Chinese are mainly concerned with the free flow of oil now that they have overtaken Japan as the world's largest importer of the stuff.

the failure of the Russo-Chinese pipeline and the possibility of sinking one large ship in the Malacca straits could stop supplies from the Middle East makes the canal an attractive alternative route. Also Sino-Singaporean relationships are not that good at present.

 

As pointed out earlier the Thai government may not be too happy about creating an apparent border between the Thai mainland and the Southern provinces that are fighting a separatist insurgency at present

 

Here's Singaporean perspective from the Straits Times...which underlines the minimal economic benefits.

"Analysts say that for the cost of building the canal, the savings of around 72 hours for ships is not significant enough.

The Panama Canal cuts about 12,000km off a journey by bypassing South America, while the Suez took 10,000km off a trip between Europe and South Asia.

There are also environmental consequences and security considerations for the Kra Canal.

Many in the Thai establishment would not be happy with a canal that appears to separate the country's four southernmost provinces from the rest of the country.

The provinces have historically resisted Bangkok's rule and are torn by separatist insurgency.

If these obstacles were overcome, questions such as what to do with the tonnes of soil excavated and where to relocate millions of people who live along the proposed site still have to answered."

Edited November 13, 2016 by Loeilad

[harrry]

5 hours ago, Loeilad said:

I would suggest that shows you have no understanding of river navigation or canal building

On the contrary I do.  

The maximum elevation where the canal will go is 75metres.  Currently there are two rivers, one going west and one east at that point.  Small boats do use much of these rivers.

 

You may note...the Panama canal uses a similar principle.  Using pre-eexisting rivers and lakes and connecting them  The top being a lake which drains both ways.

[Loeilad]

16 minutes ago, harrry said:

On the contrary I do.  

The maximum elevation where the canal will go is 75metres.  Currently there are two rivers, one going west and one east at that point.  Small boats do use much of these rivers.

 

You may note...the Panama canal uses a similar principle.  Using pre-eexisting rivers and lakes and connecting them  The top being a lake which drains both ways.

the elevation on the proposed canal is much more than the panama and yes - locks enable boats to go "uphill" - it wasn't \clear from your answer that you were aware of any of that - so what was you point?

[kannot]

5 hours ago, Loeilad said:

..and that's the basis of your argument? I think you need to review your perception of urban planning for as start and then think about what or isn't a major civil engineering project.

not  my argument just  pointing out the unfinished motorways

[Basil B]

8 hours ago, Loeilad said:

Which major civil engineering projects remain unfinished in Thailand?

 

The first one that comes to mind:

[dhream]

On 13/11/2016 at 0:02 PM, Gulfsailor said:

Until I hear from my Phatthalung inlaws that Bangkok businessmen are buying large swaths of land in the area, this is not a project about to start anytime soon. 

Edit because I misread your post: Yes, and what a great opportunity to flip it back to the deep state for a few cool trillion, because, heyyyy! the Thai taxpayer will foot the bill, so who gives a Panamanian, boys, it's payday again!

Edited November 14, 2016 by dhream

[dhream]

21 minutes ago, Basil B said:

 

The first one that comes to mind:

Oh that's going to be the new venue for the lovable firetrap street markets to sell you your 3 day old fried chicken, fake viagra, and Chang singlets!

 

[dhream]

2 hours ago, kannot said:

not  my argument just  pointing out the unfinished motorways

LOL'd at your avatar BTW, nice! You do realise were both going to hell don't you? ;D

 

[dhream]

8 hours ago, Loeilad said:

..and that's the basis of your argument? I think you need to review your perception of urban planning for as start and then think about what or isn't a major civil engineering project.

Maybe I'm too smart for religion but don't make the cut on urban planning (I was hungover for that lecture) but abandoned 3 story high transport corridor buttresses are 'minor' engineering in your book? 

Do explain, maybe I myself have misunderstood, I'm happy to be corrected by a professional, it's been a long and tiring lunch, because, retired.

[Loeilad]

34 minutes ago, Basil B said:

 

The first one that comes to mind:

Hardly major project...couple of kilometres by don muang!

Do you realise how big this canal project is??????

[dhream]

1 minute ago, Loeilad said:

Hardly major project...couple of kilometres by don muang!

Do you realise how big this canal project is??????

 

1 minute ago, Loeilad said:

Hardly major project...couple of kilometres by don muang!

Do you realise how big this canal project is??????

Ah, OK in context, I see your point.

Which leads to another observation, if, for whatever reason, these pillars were erected, and then abandoned (probably because Swampy was built?)  it does not bode well for the Kra klong caper...

[Loeilad]

5 minutes ago, dhream said:

 

Ah, OK in context, I see your point.

Which leads to another observation, if, for whatever reason, these pillars were erected, and then abandoned (probably because Swampy was built?)  it does not bode well for the Kra klong caper...

Swampy was a major project that was completed....furthermore the canal will be underwritten by the Chinese....... It is THEY who need this cut.

[dhream]

9 hours ago, Loeilad said:

It would appear that the project depends entirely on the Chinese and is really more strategic than economic. 

 

Chinese are mainly concerned with the free flow of oil now that they have overtaken Japan as the world's largest importer of the stuff.

the failure of the Russo-Chinese pipeline and the possibility of sinking one large ship in the Malacca straits could stop supplies from the Middle East makes the canal an attractive alternative route. Also Sino-Singaporean relationships are not that good at present.

 

As pointed out earlier the Thai government may not be too happy about creating an apparent border between the Thai mainland and the Southern provinces that are fighting a separatist insurgency at present

 

Here's Singaporean perspective from the Straits Times...which underlines the minimal economic benefits.

"Analysts say that for the cost of building the canal, the savings of around 72 hours for ships is not significant enough.

The Panama Canal cuts about 12,000km off a journey by bypassing South America, while the Suez took 10,000km off a trip between Europe and South Asia.

There are also environmental consequences and security considerations for the Kra Canal.

Many in the Thai establishment would not be happy with a canal that appears to separate the country's four southernmost provinces from the rest of the country.

The provinces have historically resisted Bangkok's rule and are torn by separatist insurgency.

If these obstacles were overcome, questions such as what to do with the tonnes of soil excavated and where to relocate millions of people who live along the proposed site still have to answered."

Could Singapore be a little shortsighted?

Singapore themselves could use the excavations for their desperately needed reclamation projects, unless it is not the right kind of 'dirt' for the job, but I dunno.

Thailand, if it was more pragmatic, would gain so much by 'losing' that portion restive south, maybe they could even 'sell' it back to Malaysia? Its a win-win. Additionally, it would strengthen Thai defenses in the south, were a land invasion threat ever to materialize.

Are there really 'millions' of people down there? Or are we talking a few hundred thousand?

Again, a clean (haha) buyout and resettlement is entirely achievable, they just need to choose which country they want to resettle in.

The sinking of one large ship in the canal would also stymie China, a similar stunt in the Straits could be quickly negated by simply destroying the wreck, not so easy in a canal with a population lining it!

Environment? Yes, we all make soothing noises, then go ahead and eat the burger, drive the SUV, catch the plane, and fart methane, so that's just a bit of hipster bullshit, i'm not being flippant, this is basically the attitude of most people, except tree huggers.

Edited November 14, 2016 by dhream

[ddavidovsky]

4 hours ago, harrry said:

 

The maximum elevation where the canal will go is 75metres.  Currently there are two rivers, one going west and one east at that point.  Small boats do use much of these rivers.

 

 

Very interesting, if so. Do you have coordinates for that point? On Google Earth, the gap through the mountains west of Hat Yai seems to be a watershed at the Songkla-Satun border as far as I can see (assuming that is where it is, seeing as the government seems determined to talk about this without putting out any clear maps of the route).

[dhream]

20 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

Swampy was a major project that was completed....furthermore the canal will be underwritten by the Chinese....... It is THEY who need this cut.

Yes, and my theory is that the 'ghost' highway flyover was a casualty of departmental miscommunication, or maybe 'progress and practicality' overtook blue sky planning, or maybe it was just blatant corruption, we will never know...

What China wants, China usually gets.

They are pragmatic, and use the chequebook rather than the jackboot, they can afford practically any amount, the venal Australians almost sold a vast swathe of their own country to the Chinese, before the government stepped in, I understand they're STILL trying to offload the Kidman 'ranch' to anyone 'white enough' with a boatload of cash!

Greedy morons. It's dumber than the American tribes selling Manhattan Island, only they didn't know better!

[Basil B]

6 hours ago, Loeilad said:

Hardly major project...couple of kilometres by don muang!

Do you realise how big this canal project is??????

And very aware of the lot smaller projects that go unfinished...

[Loeilad]

12 hours ago, dhream said:

Could Singapore be a little shortsighted?

Singapore themselves could use the excavations for their desperately needed reclamation projects, unless it is not the right kind of 'dirt' for the job, but I dunno.

Thailand, if it was more pragmatic, would gain so much by 'losing' that portion restive south, maybe they could even 'sell' it back to Malaysia? Its a win-win. Additionally, it would strengthen Thai defenses in the south, were a land invasion threat ever to materialize.

Are there really 'millions' of people down there? Or are we talking a few hundred thousand?

Again, a clean (haha) buyout and resettlement is entirely achievable, they just need to choose which country they want to resettle in.

The sinking of one large ship in the canal would also stymie China, a similar stunt in the Straits could be quickly negated by simply destroying the wreck, not so easy in a canal with a population lining it!

Environment? Yes, we all make soothing noises, then go ahead and eat the burger, drive the SUV, catch the plane, and fart methane, so that's just a bit of hipster bullshit, i'm not being flippant, this is basically the attitude of most people, except tree huggers.

 

12 hours ago, dhream said:

Could Singapore be a little shortsighted?

Singapore themselves could use the excavations for their desperately needed reclamation projects, unless it is not the right kind of 'dirt' for the job, but I dunno.

Thailand, if it was more pragmatic, would gain so much by 'losing' that portion restive south, maybe they could even 'sell' it back to Malaysia? Its a win-win. Additionally, it would strengthen Thai defenses in the south, were a land invasion threat ever to materialize.

Are there really 'millions' of people down there? Or are we talking a few hundred thousand?

Again, a clean (haha) buyout and resettlement is entirely achievable, they just need to choose which country they want to resettle in.

The sinking of one large ship in the canal would also stymie China, a similar stunt in the Straits could be quickly negated by simply destroying the wreck, not so easy in a canal with a population lining it!

Environment? Yes, we all make soothing noises, then go ahead and eat the burger, drive the SUV, catch the plane, and fart methane, so that's just a bit of hipster bullshit, i'm not being flippant, this is basically the attitude of most people, except tree huggers.

 

12 hours ago, dhream said:

Could Singapore be a little shortsighted?

Singapore themselves could use the excavations for their desperately needed reclamation projects, unless it is not the right kind of 'dirt' for the job, but I dunno.

Thailand, if it was more pragmatic, would gain so much by 'losing' that portion restive south, maybe they could even 'sell' it back to Malaysia? Its a win-win. Additionally, it would strengthen Thai defenses in the south, were a land invasion threat ever to materialize.

Are there really 'millions' of people down there? Or are we talking a few hundred thousand?

Again, a clean (haha) buyout and resettlement is entirely achievable, they just need to choose which country they want to resettle in.

The sinking of one large ship in the canal would also stymie China, a similar stunt in the Straits could be quickly negated by simply destroying the wreck, not so easy in a canal with a population lining it!

Environment? Yes, we all make soothing noises, then go ahead and eat the burger, drive the SUV, catch the plane, and fart methane, so that's just a bit of hipster bullshit, i'm not being flippant, this is basically the attitude of most people, except tree huggers.

The environmental concerns have apparently been one of the principle reasons this and similar proposed projects have been rejected before...the impact will be major.

As for blocking the route...the concept is simple...with the canal China has an alternative if one is blocked for any reason.......now they don't....for an example you might look at the UK and Suez.

[Loeilad]

6 hours ago, Basil B said:

And very aware of the lot smaller projects that go unfinished...

All financed by the Chinese?

 

 

In fact a major concern should be who in China finances it........ Some Chines institutions are already worth only a tenth of what they were a couple of years ago....a lot would depend on the nature of that underwriting...to think that there is some racially based Thai propensity to fail at major projects like this is pretty much baseless and without president.

It would be their equivalent of the Chunnel but with some form of Chinese backing. It is this what you need to examine not some racist notion of Thai incompetency.

Edited November 14, 2016 by Loeilad

[kannot]

13 hours ago, dhream said:

LOL'd at your avatar BTW, nice! You do realise were both going to hell don't you? ;D

 

if  it  existed yes................but  it  doesnt

[churchill]

More talk ?

 

 

http://www.tnews.co.th/contents/bg/305936

[Psimbo]

I can't remember where I read it but apparently the next project to keep PoWs busy in WW2 when the railway was completes was to dig a canal across the isthmus. Planned to be open in 1946 IIRC.

 

Would have made sense strategically for the Japanese with their designs on India.