Do you prefer young staff or 35+ staff ? I think the 35+ are more reliable...

[bberrythailand]

Greetings,

 

I am wondering why so many Thai business seem to prefer young staff when everybody knows that the young won't keep a job long and will leave as soon as they find a better one.

 

Unlike 35+ women who know that they are getting old (for Thailand) and should keep a good job as long as possible.

 

But maybe I am wrong ? Do you have bad experience will older staff leaving your company without notice that the youngster do ?

 

Thanks.

[Briggsy]

You are transferring your experiences in the West to the Thai working environment. The latter has a very different culture with respect to seniority and age.

 

I will detail some of the chief differences and their consequence.

 

1. Age is linked to seniority. Seniority specifies a Thai's place in the pecking order. Consequence, a new older member of staff who doesn't know the ropes (because she is new) may have to defer to and take instruction from a younger experienced member of staff. This is totally unnatural to Thais, leading to them feeling uncomfortable. They may quickly flip roles even though the younger is more experienced or they may fall out.

 

2. Age is linked to salary. The Thai salary system links pay to age. 2 members of staff aged say 50 and 25 doing exactly the same role may have a salary ratio of 3 : 1. This would be unheard of in the West. Consequence, older Thais employees expect more salary. Thai employers will go for the younger option when faced with the choice.

 

3. Age is linked to bossiness and face. From school age and in their twenties, Thais are taught and compelled to show deference and not to question seniors. When they hit their forties, it's payback time! Consequence, older staff may be unwilling to follow instructions and decide it is now their time to give the orders.

 

4. Thai employers are less likely to be interested in career development and sustainable human capital. Consequence. since the employer has not invested time and money in developing its staff, if the staff leave it is not so bad. In fact, it is an opportunity to get a younger, cheaper employee. Staff turnover is always viewed as a bad thing. Not always the case.

[i claudius]

I remember in the West when i was there ,we gave up employing young staff , they all thought they knew it all and took time off constantly , to be blunt most (not all) were a waste of space ,its the way they have been taught from a young age , everything is given on a plate ,no need to work for it . that was 11 years ago , dont know how it is now ,

[seancbk]

My plan is that factory staff will be mostly middle aged Thai women and possibly some guys.

The staff who will be serving  customers will be young and pretty.

The young pretties will earn more (sales bonuses).

 

All staff will benefit from things like a provident fund, regular company trips, family days, free childcare, free english lessons (mandatory for customer facing staff, optional for factory staff).   My partners and I have discussed giving equity to staff who stay with the company.   

Managerial staff will be offered equity from day one so we can attract good people.  Looking for overseas educated, young Thais (they will need to stay with us for x years before they can vest their shares).

We will provide free transport from the nearest BTS, free lunch, free drinking water.

We intend to build a company culture that people will want to work for and stay working for.   They will see that there is a career progression for everyone, no matter what position you join in, if they stay we will try to teach them new skills and let them get up the career ladder.

 

 

[yellowboat]

Small is beautiful in Thailand especially. 

[Honthy]

I think in Thailand too age is just a status. I would be rather interested in the quality of my staff... As it is usual, university means not too much I tried to find out the real knowledge and experiences of my staff.

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

The staff who will be serving  customers will be young and pretty.

The young pretties will earn more (sales bonuses).

 

I would say roughly from 22 up to 40.  Unless you want to sell stg really special a 40-45 years old Lady can be really attractive and nice.

 

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

 Looking for overseas educated, young Thais 

Good luck ....I was close to a group of Thai  students in the States and they formed a close circle with other Thais and they were not devoted students.

[bberrythailand]

@Briggsy

1. Agree with you, but some older Thai are smarter than others and can understand that younger staff who is already working in the company knows more 

2. Older staff hopeless in his future will accept less salary

3. Older staff hopeless in his future will follow instructions

4. Do you mean that Thai employers are just stupid and do not understand the benefit of keeping older staff ?

 

Anyway, young staff want more and more salary, for for some jobs I do not believe that older staff will cost more, especially because they have to accept what is given to them without having a large choice !

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[bberrythailand]

2 hours ago, seancbk said:

My plan is that factory staff will be mostly middle aged Thai women and possibly some guys.

The staff who will be serving  customers will be young and pretty.

The young pretties will earn more (sales bonuses).

 

All staff will benefit from things like a provident fund, regular company trips, family days, free childcare, free english lessons (mandatory for customer facing staff, optional for factory staff).   My partners and I have discussed giving equity to staff who stay with the company.   

Managerial staff will be offered equity from day one so we can attract good people.  Looking for overseas educated, young Thais (they will need to stay with us for x years before they can vest their shares).

We will provide free transport from the nearest BTS, free lunch, free drinking water.

We intend to build a company culture that people will want to work for and stay working for.   They will see that there is a career progression for everyone, no matter what position you join in, if they stay we will try to teach them new skills and let them get up the career ladder.

 

 

 

 

Sorry but I think that you are quite dreaming about what is possible with staff here.

They won't care your business anyway and will leave as soon as they have a chance, especially the younger ones.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Berkshire]

This is a total generalization and impossible to answer.  For instance, what occupation are you talking about?  What skills are required?  Is experience preferred?  Will there be any supervision involved?  Direct customer contact?  Etc.

 

An example would be Air Hostesses or stewardesses.  Coming from the west, I find older and more experienced Air Hostesses to be less accommodating than younger, brand new ones.  Reason is the new girls are just more excited to be in the job and usually will do it with more passion and enthusiasm.  The ones who've been doing it for a long time don't have the same energy and seem much less inclined to be accommodating.  This is not always the case, but I see it more often than not.

 

Many low level customer service jobs have the same issues.  But if I just had a serious accident and was being seen by a nurse, I'd much prefer one with some experience.  Age doesn't really matter.  

[JHolmesJr]

perception is older folks=more expensive. but they have more experience and could sometimes do the work of 2 or 3 young nitwits. depends on the industry.

[sead]

This mentality is in every country.

Edited November 16, 2016 by sead

[PaoloR]

3 hours ago, seancbk said:

My plan is that factory staff will be mostly middle aged Thai women and possibly some guys.

The staff who will be serving  customers will be young and pretty.

The young pretties will earn more (sales bonuses).

 

All staff will benefit from things like a provident fund, regular company trips, family days, free childcare, free english lessons (mandatory for customer facing staff, optional for factory staff).   My partners and I have discussed giving equity to staff who stay with the company.   

Managerial staff will be offered equity from day one so we can attract good people.  Looking for overseas educated, young Thais (they will need to stay with us for x years before they can vest their shares).

We will provide free transport from the nearest BTS, free lunch, free drinking water.

We intend to build a company culture that people will want to work for and stay working for.   They will see that there is a career progression for everyone, no matter what position you join in, if they stay we will try to teach them new skills and let them get up the career ladder.

 

 

How long have you been in Asia? How long in Thailand? Western culture, processes etc. are not directly transferable. You have so much to learn - I hope it is not too painful!  You're not in Kansas now!

[bark]

11 minutes ago, PaoloR said:

How long have you been in Asia? How long in Thailand? Western culture, processes etc. are not directly transferable. You have so much to learn - I hope it is not too painful!  You're not in Kansas now!

If he can do what he says; and can pay his staff every month and offer 3-4 month bonus, he will be successful.

Treating staff as you would want to be treated; has worked for my business for 14 years.

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, Honthy said:

3 hours ago, seancbk said:

The staff who will be serving  customers will be young and pretty.

The young pretties will earn more (sales bonuses).

 

 

 

I would say roughly from 22 up to 40.  Unless you want to sell stg really special a 40-45 years old Lady can be really attractive and nice.

 

3 hours ago, seancbk said:

 Looking for overseas educated, young Thais 

 

 

Good luck ....I was close to a group of Thai  students in the States and they formed a close circle with other Thais and they were not devoted students.

I'm happy to hire people of any age to deal with customers, as long as they are presentable.  

I have a number of Thai friends who are overseas educated, they all went to the UK, Australia or the US for their schooling, so from their networks I expect to find suitable candidates.   

[Essaybloke]

I'm at a stage in my life where I have had 30+ years of experience and developed great wisdom in my role and get better every day (I hope!) but counter-intuitively, I am less likely to find to find a new job because I am too old.   

[Briggsy]

1 hour ago, bberrythailand said:

@Briggsy

 

4. Do you mean that Thai employers are just stupid and do not understand the benefit of keeping older staff ?

 

Anyway, young staff want more and more salary, for for some jobs I do not believe that older staff will cost more, especially because they have to accept what is given to them without having a large choice !

 

4. Not at all. I don't know how you placed that construction on my words. I mean there is a greater tendency to play the short term game and the concept of Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) is not part of the vast majority of Thai companies strategy. Why invest in staff if they might leave? That is the more common thinking.

 

I think you will find that older staff, all except the unskilled manual workers, and particularly staff in positions of responsibility may surprise you with their pay expectations and levels of commitment to hard work. The surprise may not be a good one. Feedback with your findings 6 months from now.

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, bberrythailand said:

 

 

Sorry but I think that you are quite dreaming about what is possible with staff here.

They won't care your business anyway and will leave as soon as they have a chance, especially the younger ones.

 

I've lived all my life in Asia and know very well how Asians think.   

I disagree with you about younger Thai's leaving as soon as they have a chance.   Unless you mean younger, practically uneducated, can't speak english types from the provinces.    

Do you think smart young Thais who get jobs with Google in Bangkok do so and then leave as soon as they can?    

If you have a company that rewards the staff then I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to retain good people.  

 

I may not be easy but we will offer plenty to encourage good people to stay with the company.    

[seancbk]

48 minutes ago, PaoloR said:

How long have you been in Asia? How long in Thailand? Western culture, processes etc. are not directly transferable. You have so much to learn - I hope it is not too painful!  You're not in Kansas now!

 

35 years in Hong Kong, 8 years living in Bangkok.

I think like an Asian in many ways.  

I have never lived in "the West".

I have worked in factories in Hong Kong supervising Chinese workers (family businesses and non family businesses).

Working class Thais are not much different to working class HK Chinese.   Our factory workers here will be regular working class people.   

Some of the staff who will interact with customers might be from working class backgrounds, but some will be from more middle class backgrounds.

Managerial staff will more likely be middle class Thais.

 

Never been to Kansas ;-)

[siam2007]

55 minutes ago, PaoloR said:

How long have you been in Asia? How long in Thailand? Western culture, processes etc. are not directly transferable. You have so much to learn - I hope it is not too painful!  You're not in Kansas now!

 

agree. I doubt that that 99% of Thai staff, even managerial level, would be interested (or even understand) to get bonuses in equities/options. Planning ahead is nowhere to be found in Thai culture (and South East Asia in general).

 

[seancbk]

6 minutes ago, siam2007 said:

 

agree. I doubt that that 99% of Thai staff, even managerial level, would be interested (or even understand) to get bonuses in equities/options. Planning ahead is nowhere to be found in Thai culture (and South East Asia in general).

 

You obviously don't meet the types of Thais I meet.

Go along to some of the networking events where young Thais are talking about their latest app and raising 20 million baht to fund the development.

They absolutely get the concept of equity and performance based bonuses.

 

 

[Honthy]

54 minutes ago, seancbk said:

I'm happy to hire people of any age to deal with customers, as long as they are presentable.  

I have a number of Thai friends who are overseas educated, they all went to the UK, Australia or the US for their schooling, so from their networks I expect to find suitable candidates.   

 

It is OK, I wrote general ideas. Obviously, your experiences do not have to match to my ones

[seancbk]

5 minutes ago, Honthy said:

It is OK, I wrote general ideas. Obviously, your experiences do not have to match to my ones

And I appreciate your comments.  Thanks.

[thierryviteau]

56 minutes ago, seancbk said:

I've lived all my life in Asia and know very well how Asians think.   

I disagree with you about younger Thai's leaving as soon as they have a chance.   Unless you mean younger, practically uneducated, can't speak english types from the provinces.    

Do you think smart young Thais who get jobs with Google in Bangkok do so and then leave as soon as they can?    

If you have a company that rewards the staff then I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to retain good people.  

 

I may not be easy but we will offer plenty to encourage good people to stay with the company.    

 

 

Sorry but I see many reasons why you will fail.

 

Do you think that you are google or microsoft ?

 

Any small company is hopeless to find reliable staff even for 100k salary.

 

 

 

 

[rwdrwdrwd]

Do you think Google thought they were Microsoft back in 1998? Since they tried to sell up to SUN in '99 for $1m I doubt it.

Plenty of reasons for skilled workers to choose a small company, equity stakes that could be worth a fortune in the future being one of them. First few employees of Google were made billionaires at IPO in 2004.

In my developer life I worked for Microsoft, and refused an offer from Google, and shifted to startups. Small and fledgling companies have their own attractions.

Edited November 16, 2016 by rwdrwdrwd

[thierryviteau]

37 minutes ago, seancbk said:

You obviously don't meet the types of Thais I meet.

Go along to some of the networking events where young Thais are talking about their latest app and raising 20 million baht to fund the development.

They absolutely get the concept of equity and performance based bonuses.

 

 

 

 

Sorry but he is perfectly right and you sound perfectly wrong. Feel like you have been VERY VERY VERY lucky or you are dreaming.

Noodles cost 30thb in Thailand, not in HK, as well as everything else is cheaper here, and it makes a huge different.

 

 

 

 

 

[seancbk]

14 minutes ago, thierryviteau said:

 

 

Sorry but I see many reasons why you will fail.

 

Do you think that you are google or microsoft ?

 

Any small company is hopeless to find reliable staff even for 100k salary.

 

 

 

 

The nature of business is that it is inherently risky, but that is part of the appeal for some people and can be mitigated by careful planning and by having the right type of previous experience, the right contacts and even a bit of luck.

I may very well fail.   If I do then I'll try again.

The product we will manufacture and sell is a food item that everyone (Thai and foreigners) likes, it will be sold at a price point which will make it an easy purchase for most people in Bangkok and other Thai cities.  

We intend to grow the business initially in Bangkok, then expand (possibly by franchising , which I already have experience with) nationally, and eventually across the borders into Cambodia, Laos etc.


I don't think I'm Google or Microsoft, but I see nothing wrong with copying some of their ideas for building a great company ethos.   And perhaps one day we may be like them.

Hamdi Ulukaya the founder of Chobani in the US started small and look what he achieved.   Not saying I will achieve the same level of success but I admire what he has done and how he did it.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/04/27/business/a-windfall-for-chobani-employees-stakes-in-the-company.html


Businesses mostly all start small, some fail, some don't.    But if no-one had the guts to give it a go the world would be a very different place.


 

[Shiver]

For me it depends on the task.  Younger people tend to learn quicker with a more malleable mind, old is more steady, but from the day of birth to the last day on earth, there is a clear difference in most people.  You need to be sponge like to absorb quickly, but more concrete to retain the useful stuff after discarding the junk.  I guess "when you're 16 and still know everything" would be about the tipping point for many.

 

There are always exceptions of course when people learn to teach themselves to learn (education versus schooling).

 

I think of education as a method of producing effective work.  Schooling is what you do to just get a job.  You don't get many billionaires with a 'job'', spiritual examples with 'schooling'.

I'm sure there is something in that which has some loose correlation to age, but maybe not as a clean cut formula.

[gemguy]

Hmmmm...usually the younger ones are paid less ...or they will work for less because they need the work.

Pretty simple

Cheers

[georgemandm]

8 hours ago, seancbk said:

I've lived all my life in Asia and know very well how Asians think.   

I disagree with you about younger Thai's leaving as soon as they have a chance.   Unless you mean younger, practically uneducated, can't speak english types from the provinces.    

Do you think smart young Thais who get jobs with Google in Bangkok do so and then leave as soon as they can?    

If you have a company that rewards the staff then I see no reason why you wouldn't be able to retain good people.  

 

I may not be easy but we will offer plenty to encourage good people to stay with the company.    

You keep forgetting Thais are very lazy people not all but lots of them and don't like work .

not like in the west most people like work not all,  but most .

 

[seancbk]

12 minutes ago, georgemandm said:

You keep forgetting Thais are very lazy people not all but lots of them and don't like work .

not like in the west most people like work not all,  but most .

 

 

I've been talking to Thais and they tell me that there are large numbers of university educated Thais who have debt from school loans but cannot find decent jobs, so they are having to take jobs paying 10-12,000 THB a month just to survive.

I'm talking about middle class Thais in Bangkok.