Foreign Landlord With Holding Rental Deposit Advise Required!

[AdiP]

Hello, I am looking for some help and advise please.  I have been living in Thailand for approx 8 years now and class myself as a near "perfect" tenant. I have used multiple agents with different landlords without issue until just recently. I will briefly explain my story and would love any advise on any possible ways to recover my deposit or what authorities should know about this situation.

 

I have recently moved to a new condo and checked out of my previous 1 year rental apartment I was living in with my wife and baby boy. It was a small 1 bedroom unit and I need a 2 bed now for family etc. I have a good relationship with the agents as I have had multiple dealings with them. I had paid a 40,000Baht deposit which I have been given back only 18,000Baht. The reason being that half the kitchen appliances and items are all missing. This I can assure is not the case as we have moved to a fully furnished room and I am not a "Kitchen Thief", ask my previous landlords. Basically the landlord does not agree with wear & tear and as you can see on the receipts he has pretty much replaced everything new. I was obviously very upset when I was handed a mere 18,000Baht so told the agent that I totally object to this but yes I had broken some glasses and cups etc so to put the matter to bed I said if he returned me 10,000Baht more I would put it behind me and move on. The greedy landlord once again refused to make any sort of offer or reasoning as to why he can justify his quite extortionate billing which I will list below. There was no list of items, fixtures and fittings in the apartment when I moved in but apparently some photos were taken but I never signed anything other than the basic contract.

 

• I moved out 2 days before the end of the lease and contacted the agent asking if I should have the apartment cleaned or leave it so the Landlord can clean himself, then deduct the cleaning from the deposit. I was told to clean myself so I booked with reception who informed me it would be on the Tuesday 2 days after lease expired. I informed the agent again regarding the delay in cleaning and was told no problem and to continue. This ultimately resulted in the landlord charging me an extra 2 days rent. A joke!
• A massage chair not leather but covered in polyester I used 5/6 times had flaking where the roller balls have friction with the spine. A know material fault and wear and tear. Charged 4,200Baht total recover.
• Labour I was charged 2,000Baht apparently for him to hire someone to help him check all the items in the apartment. Expensive labourer to say the least.
• Tea towel as you see on the list 805Baht. Maybe brought in Harrods?
• 2 of the bigger charges I cant even work out what they were for, I guess that was the plan expecting me not to ask.
• Toilet brush, extractor light, light switch.. well guess I cant argue with these. Once again the landlord does not agree with normal wear and tear.
• Even when adding all the items together on his own hand written receipt the bill still does not come to the 22,000Baht the landlord has kept.

 

Anyway from the points above you can sort of understand where all of this is going. I discussed with my agent and unfortunately was informed that they were not holding the deposit and could not help any further. They did inform me they no longer have dealings with this landlord. I wonder why??? Maybe  many similar issues!! Its simply bad business!! They mentioned legal action but we all know that will cost far more than the 22,000Baht we are talking about. So here I am asking for any advise. Is there anything that can be done to stop this landlord fleecing all his future tenants? He apparently has 5 or 6 properties in Pattaya he rents out. If I can save one person having the same issues then writing this post will have been well worth it. Its not about the money sometimes..its the principal.. I guess the landlord was hoping I was a normal tourist who will simply keep quiet and accept these ridiculous charges. Some key paperwork attached..

 

I accept I will probably not get any more of my deposit back.. quite frankly i was lucky getting anything!! But hopefully someone will tell me how I can help stop this man doing the same to many innocent tenants. Who can I report this case to??

 

Thank you Adi

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 21, 2016 by Rimmer
Names emails and adresses

[Rimmer]

Some less than helpful posts have been removed, also pictures from the OP as they contain emails,  names and addresses and are irrelevant as the OP is asking what to do, not to name and shame which is not allowed on here.

[MoonUnit]

2 hours ago, AdiP said:

Is there anything that can be done to stop this landlord fleecing all his future tenants?

 

Don't worry about future tenants, just worry about yourself. 

[electric]

AdiP ... sorry to read about your problem, and unfortunately I don't have a solution for you in this case, however, below is a suggestion for anyone potentially looking to rent a place long term, and paying a substantial refundable deposit.

 

Back in my home country many years ago, I rented a nice 3 bedroom suburban home. Long term 1 year x 1 year etc.

 

Prior to signing the lease, the agent had a very comprehensive checklist for the entire house. We spent maybe 2 hours wandering through the place, carefully ticking off the checklist, carefully noting the condition of beds, curtains, floor coverings, furniture, wall paint, inventory of pots pans cutlery etc. Anything with imperfections, stains, etc was also carefully noted. 

 

The condition of outside gardens, lawns, sheds etc were also noted on the checklist. Many photos were taken.

 

Two copies were made of this checklist, both signed by the agent and myself. Agent kept 1 copy, I kept 1 copy.

 

When I finally moved out couple of years later, agent came around for final inspection. Again, she wandered slowly through each room, comparing what she saw, with what was on the 2yo checklist. Result .... 100% deposit refund.

 

I know it's a bit of a tedious hassle to do this checklist initially, but it's really the only way of proving "your word against the agent/owner" if problems arise at lease termination .... as has unfortunately happened to AdiP

 

If you rent a car, they will show you the dents, scratches etc and ask you to sign a doc. We really should do the same when renting a house, but not many people do.

 

 

[AdiP]

48 minutes ago, electric said:

AdiP ... sorry to read about your problem, and unfortunately I don't have a solution for you in this case, however, below is a suggestion for anyone potentially looking to rent a place long term, and paying a substantial refundable deposit.

 

Back in my home country many years ago, I rented a nice 3 bedroom suburban home. Long term 1 year x 1 year etc.

 

Prior to signing the lease, the agent had a very comprehensive checklist for the entire house. We spent maybe 2 hours wandering through the place, carefully ticking off the checklist, carefully noting the condition of beds, curtains, floor coverings, furniture, wall paint, inventory of pots pans cutlery etc. Anything with imperfections, stains, etc was also carefully noted. 

 

The condition of outside gardens, lawns, sheds etc were also noted on the checklist. Many photos were taken.

 

Two copies were made of this checklist, both signed by the agent and myself. Agent kept 1 copy, I kept 1 copy.

 

When I finally moved out couple of years later, agent came around for final inspection. Again, she wandered slowly through each room, comparing what she saw, with what was on the 2yo checklist. Result .... 100% deposit refund.

 

I know it's a bit of a tedious hassle to do this checklist initially, but it's really the only way of proving "your word against the agent/owner" if problems arise at lease termination .... as has unfortunately happened to AdiP

 

If you rent a car, they will show you the dents, scratches etc and ask you to sign a doc. We really should do the same when renting a house, but not many people do.

 

 

 

Hi Electric, yes your way sounds pretty secure.. I think a big problem here is the majority of landlords actually hold the deposits themselves so ultimately if there is a disagreement there is no middleman so to speak (the agent) who can adjudicate. I guess in the future here there will be stiff regulations as I can only see these problems growing. To be fair I have rented trouble free from many expats previously, and the landlord in question is already on the black list of a few agents out here..

[KittenKong]

3 hours ago, AdiP said:

I accept I will probably not get any more of my deposit back.. quite frankly i was lucky getting anything!! But hopefully someone will tell me how I can help stop this man doing the same to many innocent tenants. Who can I report this case to??

 

Anyone wanting to meet a world class scumbag probably wont need to look much further than the Pattaya property market.

 

You could try complaining to the Office of Consumer Protection who can be found at City Hall but I doubt that you will ever see your money. I am particularly surprised about the involvement of a certain local real estate agent (name subsequently deleted) who is often described as one of the better ones here. I suppose it just proves the point.

[AdiP]

9 minutes ago, KittenKong said:

 

Anyone wanting to meet a world class scumbag probably wont need to look much further than the Pattaya property market.

 

You could try complaining to the Office of Consumer Protection who can be found at City Hall but I doubt that you will ever see your money. I am particularly surprised about the involvement of a certain local real estate agent (name subsequently deleted) who is often described as one of the better ones here. I suppose it just proves the point.

 

Hi KittenKong, thanks for the advice.. I also doubt there will be another penny paid.. it would be nice to take the said "landlord" out of his throne & comfort zone somehow.. could be a start the Office of Consumer Protection.. I bet theres no tax paid on the rents he has received from me and all his other unfortunate tenants.. and certainly no tax paid on the deposit he kept!!

Edited November 21, 2016 by AdiP

[Happy Grumpy]

Forget about it and move on.

 

Best advise you will get.

 

 

[KittenKong]

1 hour ago, AdiP said:

I bet theres no tax paid on the rents he has received from me and all his other unfortunate tenants.. and certainly no tax paid on the deposit he kept!!

 

That's a safe bet.

[catman20]

its like renting a motor bike take pictures of every room when u move in as i would have done , no problems then. having been here for 8 years you should know better.

[jacko45k]

10 hours ago, KittenKong said:

 

Anyone wanting to meet a world class scumbag probably wont need to look much further than the Pattaya property market.

 

You could try complaining to the Office of Consumer Protection who can be found at City Hall but I doubt that you will ever see your money. I am particularly surprised about the involvement of a certain local real estate agent (name subsequently deleted) who is often described as one of the better ones here. I suppose it just proves the point.

I think that is a good suggestion. I talked to someone who went that way and got some more of his deposit refunded. Many landlords here do expect their property to be returned to them as originally supplied, rather than accepting wear and tear.

 

[mstevens]

Foreigners renting out a condo they own in Thailand must pay tax on the income  they receive and it is a flat rate of 15%.  I'd remind the foreign owner of this as I would bet that most landlords do not pay this tax.  If he chooses to withhold the rental deposit that is rightly yours, simply tell him that you're going to get in contact with the Revenue Department to verify that he has been meeting his tax commitments.

 

This is exactly what happened to me on a short-time rental some years ago and when I made these noises to the landlord about contacting the Revenue Department, he returned the money to me that day!  It helped that I had been depositing the money by ATM transfer in to an account in his name so there was a trail of the money transactions.

 

Try this approach.  It worked for me.

[flynn]

1 hour ago, mstevens said:

Foreigners renting out a condo they own in Thailand must pay tax on the income  they receive and it is a flat rate of 15%.  I'd remind the foreign owner of this as I would bet that most landlords do not pay this tax.  If he chooses to withhold the rental deposit that is rightly yours, simply tell him that you're going to get in contact with the Revenue Department to verify that he has been meeting his tax commitments.

 

This is exactly what happened to me on a short-time rental some years ago and when I made these noises to the landlord about contacting the Revenue Department, he returned the money to me that day!  It helped that I had been depositing the money by ATM transfer in to an account in his name so there was a trail of the money transactions.

 

Try this approach.  It worked for me.

Good advice,  hit him where it hurts,,,,,his pocket,,

[realenglish1]

Report him to the Thai consumer affairs and they will look into it That fact that a government body is making inquirer will get him to move

This I am sure of

I had a similar situation that was resolved this way 

[misterphil]

Your quite lucky. 

 

One Belgian expat renter tried to keep my 56K deposit. Kept putting it off when he was going to pay me it back. After 3 weeks my wife went to the police and they gave her some letter. She then went to a lawyer and her, the police and the lawyer went to the house to talk to the owner. The next day we received 50K back from the deposit. The 6K they kept to cover utilities etc. 

 

Total bill for the police and lawyer was approx 7 or 8K, cant remember exactly but well worth it. 

 

This was a house in Central Park 4. 

 

 

[mcfish]

The joys of renting. Can you afford to buy? You have a family and your kid will inherit anyway. Do your self a favour and get off the rental merry go round and abusive landlords

Sent from my SC-01D using Tapatalk

[Grubster]

I paid 10,000 baht deposit and wrote it off immediately as I will be stunned if I get it back even after I had a 15,000 baht nice railing added to the place.  Maybe I'm part of the problem as I won't even care.

[Sydebolle]

Quite simple - it is your fault and your fault only. I have property I'm renting out and I insist that a new tenant takes the inventory list listing every spoon, cup and glass. The tenant checks and counter-signs the inventory and it's back into the files. 

Never had an argument with any tenant; normal wear and tear needs to be stipulated in the same list too. A chip off the cup is a chip off the cup ........... 

[onemorechang]

1 hour ago, Sydebolle said:

Quite simple - it is your fault and your fault only. I have property I'm renting out and I insist that a new tenant takes the inventory list listing every spoon, cup and glass. The tenant checks and counter-signs the inventory and it's back into the files. 

Never had an argument with any tenant; normal wear and tear needs to be stipulated in the same list too. A chip off the cup is a chip off the cup ........... 

Oops

Sorry,   just misread your post. 

Edited November 22, 2016 by onemorechang

[inventorinthailand]

Happens all the time. In 13 years I have 220 000 baht in unreturned deposits. They will never pay it back. Nowadays, I refuses any deposits. At my current condo I payed 12 month rents upfront which the owner really liked and gave me a really good price reduction as well.

 

Refuse paying deposits or calculate it as a part of the living cost.....

Edited November 22, 2016 by inventorinthailand

[jasonsamui55]

I used to live in New York and there it is standard practice of tenants to just not pay the last month of rent on the contract, letting the landlord keep the security deposit as the last month's rent. Much cleaner and simpler that way. Of course in the US rentals are typically not furnished in any way and certainly no glasses or dishes or furniture to be broken. The only wear and tear often is that the home needs a new re-painting of all the walls between tenants moving in and out but that's standard and all landlords would normally do that anyway. So, at least there, if your rent was $1000 per month and you had to pay $3000 to move in - $1000 for first month, $1000 for last month, and $1000 for security deposit - you normally would just skip the last 2 month's rental payments. I'm not sure how well that would fly in Thailand.

 

If you think that's bad, I also was once a landlord in Florida where the common joke among tenants signing leases is that if a house is offered at $1000 per month, they joke that they'd pay $2000 up front, the first and last month's rent, the joke being that the 2nd $1000 is the last monthly rent payment that they'd ever make, and quite often that would be true, as after making that $2000 payment and skipping a few month's rent, it would take a year it more to evict them, many years if they have kids, and then they'd just go find another landlord victim.

[mcfish]

I used to live in New York and there it is standard practice of tenants to just not pay the last month of rent on the contract, letting the landlord keep the security deposit as the last month's rent. Much cleaner and simpler that way. Of course in the US rentals are typically not furnished in any way and certainly no glasses or dishes or furniture to be broken. The only wear and tear often is that the home needs a new re-painting of all the walls between tenants moving in and out but that's standard and all landlords would normally do that anyway. So, at least there, if your rent was $1000 per month and you had to pay $3000 to move in - $1000 for first month, $1000 for last month, and $1000 for security deposit - you normally would just skip the last 2 month's rental payments. I'm not sure how well that would fly in Thailand.
 
If you think that's bad, I also was once a landlord in Florida where the common joke among tenants signing leases is that if a house is offered at $1000 per month, they joke that they'd pay $2000 up front, the first and last month's rent, the joke being that the 2nd $1000 is the last monthly rent payment that they'd ever make, and quite often that would be true, as after making that $2000 payment and skipping a few month's rent, it would take a year it more to evict them, many years if they have kids, and then they'd just go find another landlord victim.

There is very cheap land lord insurance to cover for rotten tenants. It's cheap because in reality 95% of rentals in the west run smoothly

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[todlad]

Of course I don't know in this case but such a landlord sounds British to me: that's exactly the sort of thing they get away with there. From the time I was a youth to the day my son left his university digs. The same rubbish charges, the same lies and the same excuses.

 

My only advice is far too late for you: list everything, take photos, get signatures. Anything happens, log it, record it, share it.

 

Again I don't know but 40,000 Baht deposit sounds like a lot, too: ripe for ripping off. Is that normal here?

 

I am sorry to have to read your story and I would be very tempted to smash a few windows.

 

[holy cow cm]

You are so lucky you did not have a jet ski in there too.

[Retiredandhappyhere]

I undertsand that we expats can not change everything in Thailand but I do get a bit fed up with some posters on here always blaming the victim when things go wrong.  If we all accept that the people doing the scams are entitled to do it and should be allowed to get away with it, "as this is Thailand", then nothing will ever change. 

[onemorechang]

1 hour ago, todlad said:

Of course I don't know in this case but such a landlord sounds British to me: that's exactly the sort of thing they get away with there.

 

 

Bs,   good and bad landlords all over the world.

 

BTW, the deposit in uk is not held by the landlord

its the Law.

So you know nothing of what you talk

 

Edited November 22, 2016 by onemorechang

[jtrump]

From what I understand from my lawyer, you can file a complaint with the court for 100B. The courts do not want you to go to court in Thailand so you go to mediation first.  They want you  to settle that way neither party loses face, compromise somewhere in the middle. I know this is a last chance option but might recover some of the money.  Again, this is what my Thai lawyer said and he has been practicing for 20 years.  Good luck.

 

PS, I have been lucky, rented a condo and a townhouse.  Got all of the money back from the condo and the landlord was surprised I cleaned the condo. he told me I didn't have to.  Townhouse, the guy kept a little money for cleaning and a broken window that just broke. Not happy as I didn't break the window but little money.  New townhouse and it probably settled breaking the window. Still only kept about a 1000B.

[jeffandgop]

A couple of years ago after we exited the rental and received our security deposit returned 100% the  agent contacted us to demand compensation for taking household items such as an 8 foot ladder. We told here it was our property we brought from the US with our container of household goods and not hers/homeowner. She tried to dispute this and after we showed her our shipment bill of lading and the US mover's tag attached to the ladder she disappeared without so much as an apology. 

[onemorechang]

Please all remember, we only have one side of the story here.

not saying the op is not telling the truth but.

There is always three sides to a story.

The op side, the landlords side , and then the truth.

we only have one, and that's the Op version.

The Op did post the guys personal information on this

thread,   removed now ,   and rightly so.

But he blanked  out his own personal information in the same pictures.

that was a deliberate act. but forgot the Landlord.

So the Op, is not the total modal guy in my books.

Not a personal attack ,    just stating the facts as i saw them.

 

Good luck with the quest for you deposit back.

 

 

 

[ThaiBob]

Whatever happened to communication? The op has the landlord's email, phone number and address. Why not simply talk to him and explain that the landlord's own receipts did not add up properly to the amounts withheld and adjustments are due. Only then should more drastic actions be considered.