University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!

[Shawn0000]

6 minutes ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

Standard English is quite stagnant. I agree.

 

As far as popular creations like the ones you mentioned, it is like asking me to build a bridge. The average speaker is not aware of the rules, the system, the other creations made by another texter.

 

That being said, texting is not the solution. It is not even close, even though there are some good ideas. I am a trained teacher and have a degree in linguistics. Reforming a spelling system --especially English-- should not be left to amateurs or texters. The underlying and sine qua non feature of texting is knowing the underlying language: its lexicon, its spelling system,... and the context of the topic discussed. The reader is forced to make assumptions that the sender carefully (usually) analyzed to be reasonable. Texting would be an absolute disaster if it were to be implemented as a new spelling system. 

 

Slow changes? 250 years of slow changes has proven to be an absolute disaster as well. I  think the reformists were wrong in the past in trying to force current users to adopt the changes. Neo-reformists are more aware that this was a big error.  Computers and texting did not exist then. Texters will be more open to some form of a reform. This match is not over. But, maybe we can wait for the Chinese to impose their brew onto us. That would be poetic justice, for those who continue to think that all is well in the best of worlds. It is not. We will not wait. We are tired of waiting. Change is on its way. It might not be a revolution. I suggest a reform.

 

I think you underestimate people, you could probably build some sort of usable bridge, kids have developed all sorts of usable codes and textese will develop further becoming more standardized and less ambiguous.

I was not saying that textese should, could or would become the standard, but it is a related change that is happening, it has crept into use in formal situations, it has gained a degree of acceptance as a whole, and there will be parts of it that gain further acceptance in mainstream formal use and in this way the reform is already happening.  You say that it should not be left to texters, but it is, it is left to all of us in all of our usages and they for one are making these very changes that you want to see implemented, I think there may be a great deal to learn from this language evolution that is taking place so rapidly.

[melvinmelvin]

8 hours ago, scorecard said:

Perhaps there's another point. The headline is:

 

"University teaching shows why Thais' command of English is so abysmal!"

 

So what was the writer of the headline really meaning?

 

- The 'quality' of English used by Thai and/or farang lecturers in the classroom? or

- The 'quality' of English held by the students in the classroom? Which could mean:

- Their ability to comprehend what the lecturer is saying?

- Their ability to respond verbally in English?

- Their ability to respond in written English?

 

- In most cases Thai (and foreign exchange students studying in Thailand or anywhere) are not expecting to be taught English skills, they know that they need to cope immediate / at first lecture with English, meaning subjects like engineering, business, etc.  

 

- Even if they are studying for a BA in English this would normally not be a course to learn to speak English, the content of the course is much more likely intended to study the history and overall development of the English language and the background intricacies of the language, etc.

 

In other words the students are expected to have developed good English skills before registering for courses taught in English.

 

On the other hand there are plenty of native speaker lecturers in many faculties of Thai universities. And there are also plenty of Thai lecturers who have studied abroad for long periods and have very strong English skills. And there are smaller numbers of Thai lecturers who have every possible level of English language abilities. In some cases the last group are assigned to each in English because of the depth of the subject knowledge, perhaps in science, etc., and in some such cases the university cannot find a lecturer with strong English capabilities.

 

- However several Thai universities do have an on campus English Language Institute (part of the actual university structure, not a language school from outside), which does have the intent of teaching / learning to read, comprehend, speak and write English. Generally these institutes have very highly qualified farang lecturers (in two cases I'm aware of both such institutes have 2 Ph.D. holders on staff). And unless it's recently changed these courses are very expensive and have quite small classes and a very small total number of classes.

 

So, bottom line, are Thai universities to blame for the overall level of English in Thailand? 

 

agree that the headline is not very clear, what did the OP actually mean? beats me

in my view the headline is oddly phrased

 

as to the blame for the overall level of English in Thailand?

is there a blame here it all?

Maybe quite simply Thais are not that overly keen to learn English

 

Why should Thais have a good command of English?  If they want to have - fine. If they don't want to have - fine.

 

I am amused by how upset foreigners are about Thais command of English.

The vast majority of people on the planet can not speak English, and that vast majority get by, some better than others.

 

 

 

[soalbundy]

2 minutes ago, Slip said:

 

The grocer's apostrophe surely identifies him as a true Brit.

 

Meanwhile, and bearing in mind that for some knee-jerk reason I entirely despise EnlightenedAthesist's attempts to reform the spelling system of the language, I don't feel that it in any way defines or would fix the problem of the OP.  

Yes, this is getting way off topic but each to his own, it is fluid and people seem to be enjoying it. What is a grocers apostrophe ?

[Artisi]

53 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

How noble of you

Maybe the posh comment was incorrectly directed

[Slip]

4 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Yes, this is getting way off topic but each to his own, it is fluid and people seem to be enjoying it. What is a grocers apostrophe ?

 

Banana's one pound a bunch.

 

I didn't mean to suggest the EA was off topic, but more that I don't think his ideas for changing the spelling system would make any difference to the general level of ability demonstrated by Thai students. 

 

I am enjoying the debate too.  It is giving me plenty to consider.

[Shawn0000]

8 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

I didn't actually refer to any one particular person as a chav, i used the word ,yes, it isn't a nice word but i couldn't think of anything better at the time and since we were referring to the usage of slang at the time it seemed appropriate. I couldn't help but notice your spelling of the word humour, does that mean you are an American? born into a titled family? surely not.

 

I am half American actually and incidentally my grandmother on the American side would have also been titled, a Freiin, had she be born in Germany like her parents, this is equivalent to the British viscountess, but as she was born in America she was legally not entitled to use the title.

[Shawn0000]

15 minutes ago, Slip said:

 

The grocer's apostrophe surely identifies him as a true Brit.

 

Meanwhile, and bearing in mind that for some knee-jerk reason I entirely despise EnlightenedAthesist's attempts to reform the spelling system of the language, I don't feel that it in any way defines or would fix the problem of the OP.  

 

Yes, I've never been good with apostrophes.

 

I think EnlightenedAthesist is too fixated by the spelling issue, not that it isn't a big issue, however my feeling is that it is not the main issue for Thai learners of English specifically, which is more being held back by appalling teaching methodologies and social barriers.

[soalbundy]

7 minutes ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I am half American actually and incidentally my grandmother on the American side would have also been titled, a Freiin, had she be born in Germany like her parents, this is equivalent to the British viscountess, but as she was born in America she was legally not entitled to use the title.

So almost blue blooded, i speak fluent German having lived there for over 40 years, never hear of a Freiin, perhaps Frei Frau von.... Who knows, Viscountess would be Vicomtesse, maybe she lied when she got off the boat, didn't fancy the job as a seamstress. No harm intended.  

[Slip]

 

 

Quote

Yes, I've never been good with apostrophes.

 

I think EnlightenedAthesist is too fixated by the spelling issue, not that it isn't a big issue, however my feeling is that it is not the main issue for Thai learners of English specifically, which is more being held back by appalling teaching methodologies and social barriers.

The grocer's apostrophe is as Brit as the use of 'of' in the present perfect.  I'm shocked to find it is also used by our American cousins. :D

I agree with your comment on methodology and social barriers entirely.  When I was a youngster we took our English language 'O' level at the age of 14 and that was the last we learnt of language as a discrete subject.  After that we studied literature to develop critical thinking and other skills.

[soalbundy]

22 minutes ago, Artisi said:

Maybe the posh comment was incorrectly directed

It was, I am more arrogant than posh. My father used to mix in 'posh' circles when he was getting old and took me along sometimes but i didn't like anyone there, I was more into the waitresses, sad but true, we all have to face our limitations.

[soalbundy]

17 minutes ago, Slip said:

 

 

The grocer's apostrophe is as Brit as the use of 'of' in the present perfect.  I'm shocked to find it is also used by our American cousins. :D

I agree with your comment on methodology and social barriers entirely.  When I was a youngster we took our English language 'O' level at the age of 14 and that was the last we learnt of language as a discrete subject.  After that we studied literature to develop critical thinking and other skills.

Self education beats school by a long way because you concentrate on that which interests you and through interest you go far further than a school would take you. I have met Thai's who speak excellent English but not because they learnt it at school, they taught themselves at ages which surprised me, 30, 35, and in one case over 50 years old.

Apart from the fact that i have only ever spoken English with my son he learns a great deal from the internet, Minecraft being one of his favourates but then he started to get an American accent which i had to jump on quickly before it became entrenched (sorry Shawn) but he now knows the difference between the English players and the American players (they are the ones who cant speak properly, sorry i couldn't find any other way)

[Shawn0000]

27 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

So almost blue blooded, i speak fluent German having lived there for over 40 years, never hear of a Freiin, perhaps Frei Frau von.... Who knows, Viscountess would be Vicomtesse, maybe she lied when she got off the boat, didn't fancy the job as a seamstress. No harm intended.  

 

I am afraid your German has let you down, Vicomtesse is a French title.  Freiin is the daughter of a Freiherr, the non reining version of a Reichsfreiherr, that one was my great great uncle.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

I am afraid your German has let you down, Vicomtesse is a French title.  Freiin is the daughter of a Freiherr, the non reining version of a Reichsfreiherr, that one was my great great uncle.

Good, cant know everything, but Vicomtesse is recognized German, it's origins are undoubtedly French but the Germans know a good thing when they see it

[soalbundy]

Well this site is certainly better than the rape one, i'm getting quite fed up that one

[Slip]

14 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Self education beats school by a long way because you concentrate on that which interests you and through interest you go far further than a school would take you. I have met Thai's who speak excellent English but not because they learnt it at school, they taught themselves at ages which surprised me, 30, 35, and in one case over 50 years old.

Apart from the fact that i have only ever spoken English with my son he learns a great deal from the internet, Minecraft being one of his favourates but then he started to get an American accent which i had to jump on quickly before it became entrenched (sorry Shawn) but he now knows the difference between the English players and the American players (they are the ones who cant speak properly, sorry i couldn't find any other way)

We were still at school.  We just didn't study language anymore.  At 15 we were studying Shakespeare, Swift, Pope and the like.

 

I see what you are saying though. As an adult I have taught myself web design, animation, 3D modelling, and a certain amount of graphic design, as well as learning to be a teacher in my off hours.

 

Well done on teaching your son the dangers of the Americans btw. 

 

EDIT- this last is far off topic.  The point is that we learnt more about the language by using it than learning it perhaps.

[Shawn0000]

6 minutes ago, soalbundy said:

Good, cant know everything, but Vicomtesse is recognized German, it's origins are undoubtedly French but the Germans know a good thing when they see it

 

The borders are not where they were.

[soalbundy]

1 minute ago, Shawn0000 said:

 

The borders are not where they were.

Sad but true, Bismarck did his best but the rest that followed messed it up, Paris could have been a German province.

[soalbundy]

12 minutes ago, Slip said:

We were still at school.  We just didn't study language anymore.  At 15 we were studying Shakespeare, Swift, Pope and the like.

 

I see what you are saying though. As an adult I have taught myself web design, animation, 3D modelling, and a certain amount of graphic design, as well as learning to be a teacher in my off hours.

 

Well done on teaching your son the dangers of the Americans btw. 

 

EDIT- this last is far off topic.  The point is that we learnt more about the language by using it than learning it perhaps.

I think you did very well, i'm impressed, i wasn't that energetic when i was working. I taught myself to read Thai from Harry Potter books in Thai and then wanted to start on the Chinese language (because you can) Along came children and that was that, the dog and the cat were the last straw.

The Internet is there in Thai as well, they can learn all sorts of things from it but they don't, I tried to get the 16 year old daughter interested in things like quantum mechanics (for dummies), is time real, are we an illusion, etc. but no Thai pop music OK, the missus is more into soft Korean porn and my son just wants to play games on it. Progress is a wonderful thing.

[bluesofa]

On 06/12/2016 at 0:33 PM, Dexlowe said:

The printer may very well have made mistakes -- sometimes deliberate, as in several examples I can give of printers and others, in their supreme arrogance, changing my copy because they thought they were right and I was wrong (despite strict instructions to alter nothing). But it doesn't excuse the fact that the professor (or whoever) had a responsibility to check the final version of the study program before it was printed/published. After all, it's their reputation on the line (not that they seem to care, sadly).

 

I agree about final responsibility to check the final version before printing.
From bitter experience, easier said than done.I ordered 5,000 checkbins for a bar.I thought I had it covered by giving the prnter a sample I'd printed on the PC, items in Thai with the English next to it on the same line (to reduce staff errors). Then I asked for a proof before printing.The alleged proof had the expected spelling mistakes - three in English and one in Thai.

Got the printer to redo it and submit a second proof. This was correct, and I gave them the OK to print after signing it, writing on it to print that one.

Of course when the checkbins arrived the printer had used the first erroneous proof. Then followed an argument because I refused to pay, and told them to do it again with the correct proof.

 

[Loeilad]

As I said, I'm not that convinced that spelling is the big problem with English....unless you insist on one particular code. te fact is that attempts to "rationalise" spelling by governmental bodies has failed - and I think always will.

It it an obstacle to learning English? Well that needs to be set in context against other languages and English usage pretty much out performs all other languages - so no problem there.

 

spelling does change - and has changed thoughout history....if there is a real need the spelling changes and those changes come from the users of English in true democratic fashion - the changes are ten recorded in the various dictionaries.

we already have a plethora of alternative spellings in English all of which are excepted.

an example would be the UK/US versions of "centre/center" - I could easily argue that the US change wasn'rt needed and actually is a bit confusing but nevertheless both are accepted.

I was diagnosed as "dyslexic" way back and had a lot of problems wit reading and writing - oddly enough it was Latin that helped me there as it gave me the tools to understand the construction of longer words in English that came to English via French or were made up by academics who believed in the Latin form of spelling rather than the German.

It is a problem for students of Thai language that although the spellings is quite phonetic it has a ridiculously archaic and unflexible writing system - this I think presents more of a problem.

[Loeilad]

13 hours ago, soalbundy said:

Self education beats school by a long way because you concentrate on that which interests you and through interest you go far further than a school would take you. I have met Thai's who speak excellent English but not because they learnt it at school, they taught themselves at ages which surprised me, 30, 35, and in one case over 50 years old.

Apart from the fact that i have only ever spoken English with my son he learns a great deal from the internet, Minecraft being one of his favourates but then he started to get an American accent which i had to jump on quickly before it became entrenched (sorry Shawn) but he now knows the difference between the English players and the American players (they are the ones who cant speak properly, sorry i couldn't find any other way)

"Self education beats school by a long way" only an uneducated person could come up with a comment like that.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

5 hours ago, Loeilad said:

As I said, I'm not that convinced that spelling is the big problem with English....unless you insist on one particular code. te fact is that attempts to "rationalise" spelling by governmental bodies has failed - and I think always will.

It it an obstacle to learning English? Well that needs to be set in context against other languages and English usage pretty much out performs all other languages - so no problem there.

 

spelling does change - and has changed thoughout history....if there is a real need the spelling changes and those changes come from the users of English in true democratic fashion - the changes are ten recorded in the various dictionaries.

we already have a plethora of alternative spellings in English all of which are excepted.

an example would be the UK/US versions of "centre/center" - I could easily argue that the US change wasn'rt needed and actually is a bit confusing but nevertheless both are accepted.

I was diagnosed as "dyslexic" way back and had a lot of problems wit reading and writing - oddly enough it was Latin that helped me there as it gave me the tools to understand the construction of longer words in English that came to English via French or were made up by academics who believed in the Latin form of spelling rather than the German.

It is a problem for students of Thai language that although the spellings is quite phonetic it has a ridiculously archaic and unflexible writing system - this I think presents more of a problem.

 

As stated, the approaches of the past were ill-advised, hoping for people to pick up on the changes and use them. It is not because something did not work once that it should be abandoned. Many countries have had reforms. There are no excuses. To keep hundreds of thousands of misspellings in a lingua franca is irresponsible and selfish.

 

English usage as in having to learn English to make a living? It is not because English is an easier language to learn or it is the epitome of phonemicity and, as demonstrated, the learning tool par excellence. The use is artificially forced on people because Brits colonized (raped/pillaged) the whole world with no conscience. Hardly something to be proud of, but now that the Americans are going that, it is poetic justice, I suppose.

 

Spelling has not changed much except in the US for a few words. In 250 years, not much. In 100 years, virtually not. With spell-checkers, not a chance.

 

It is hard for me to understand the idea that "_re" is better than "er", but for a dyslexic that would make sense. The rest of the population does not reverse letters. \so one must learn Latin (French,...) to know how to spell words in English. It seems quite inefficient, don't you think?

 

Ambiguous spelling systems are good only to help differentiate homophones, but there are very few of them and NO ONE has a problem understanding what I say when I say out loud: There's an ant in my bowl. Most homophones are differentiated by their grammatical/syntactical use (parts of speech).

 

 

 

[Loeilad]

1 hour ago, EnlightenedAtheist said:

 

As stated, the approaches of the past were ill-advised, hoping for people to pick up on the changes and use them. It is not because something did not work once that it should be abandoned. Many countries have had reforms. There are no excuses. To keep hundreds of thousands of misspellings in a lingua franca is irresponsible and selfish.

 

English usage as in having to learn English to make a living? It is not because English is an easier language to learn or it is the epitome of phonemicity and, as demonstrated, the learning tool par excellence. The use is artificially forced on people because Brits colonized (raped/pillaged) the whole world with no conscience. Hardly something to be proud of, but now that the Americans are going that, it is poetic justice, I suppose.

 

Spelling has not changed much except in the US for a few words. In 250 years, not much. In 100 years, virtually not. With spell-checkers, not a chance.

 

It is hard for me to understand the idea that "_re" is better than "er", but for a dyslexic that would make sense. The rest of the population does not reverse letters. \so one must learn Latin (French,...) to know how to spell words in English. It seems quite inefficient, don't you think?

 

Ambiguous spelling systems are good only to help differentiate homophones, but there are very few of them and NO ONE has a problem understanding what I say when I say out loud: There's an ant in my bowl. Most homophones are differentiated by their grammatical/syntactical use (parts of speech).

 

 

 

"he use is artificially forced on people because Brits colonized (raped/pillaged) the whole world with no conscience. Hardly something to be proud of, but now that the Americans are going that, it is poetic justice, I suppose." - this is wildly incorrect.

 

the use of English has relatively little to do with the UK Empire, it the huge increase in English has occurred under US world dominance.

 

"lingua Franca" - hoe would you go about spelling that in a "rationalised" system - pure Latin it is part of English and uses the "schwa" sound.

would it have the same ending as "teacher"?

[Loeilad]

Re in center is better than er because it follows the other forms of the word - in most languages it is centr (plus vowel) this means when the word takes on orther forms - e.g. adjectival - it becomes "central" - which means in US terms it has to return to the original form.////and of course there are many words that use "centr" as a root. If twe followed the US logic the adjective would be "centeral".

 

A lot of the US spellings sound OK if you attribute a particular phoneme to a letter but in reality that doesn't work especially as English uses so many derivatives to form further uses of a particular word.

the mess caused by the US post's attempts to eliminate "borough" in all its forms were just a joke.

[EnlightenedAtheist]

5 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

Re in center is better than er because it follows the other forms of the word - in most languages it is centr (plus vowel) this means when the word takes on orther forms - e.g. adjectival - it becomes "central" - which means in US terms it has to return to the original form.////and of course there are many words that use "centr" as a root. If twe followed the US logic the adjective would be "centeral".

 

A lot of the US spellings sound OK if you attribute a particular phoneme to a letter but in reality that doesn't work especially as English uses so many derivatives to form further uses of a particular word.

the mess caused by the US post's attempts to eliminate "borough" in all its forms were just a joke.

 

Morphology over phonemicity. Is there anyone who cannot make the connection between centric and center? Decoding is more important as it helps primary grade students and it helps billions of people who learn English as another language. It is not even close. You don't care about foreigners or you do?

 

What mess?

[EnlightenedAtheist]

23 minutes ago, Loeilad said:

the use of English has relatively little to do with the UK Empire, it the huge increase in English has occurred under US world dominance.

 

"lingua Franca" - hoe would you go about spelling that in a "rationalised" system - pure Latin it is part of English and uses the "schwa" sound.

would it have the same ending as "teacher"?

 

Who established the colonies? Britain or the US? Case closed.

 

We can go and include the "r" in the new sp., but the Brits and others will drop it, as a rule. I doubt it is even taught. Accents are learned at age 2. 

 

So, using Iezy Ignglish, ligngwe or linggwe frènce (c is always /k/) and tietsher. You like it?

[soalbundy]

19 hours ago, Loeilad said:

"Self education beats school by a long way" only an uneducated person could come up with a comment like that.

you ought to take up gardening, calms the nerves no end. I ended my career as head of a graphic design department at a well known automobile company in Germany, I worked on CAD-CAM computers (self taught) among many other systems. Perhaps you are a frustrated young English teacher with a low paying position, whatever, you ought to find yourself a cause or a person worthy of your anger.

[The Dark Lord]

On 07/12/2016 at 5:53 PM, rijb said:

 

Did you learn that in Facebook?

No, it was one of those things called independant thought

[The Dark Lord]

On 07/12/2016 at 6:02 PM, Shawn0000 said:

 

How about Encyclopedia Britannica?  According to a study by Nature Journal they fair equally with regard to accuracy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/technology/4530930.stm

 

What are these flaws that a smart guy like you can pick up on but the peer reviewers tasked by Nature all missed?

Dear Shawn0000,

 

sadly life ice is too short to get involved in what could easily become a nonsensical discussion. Wiki, I understand us updated by gen pop and as such us a prime target for is information, slanted information etc whereas the Encyclopedia blah blah has to meet certain minimum standards.

 

help me out mate work it out yourself

 

cheers

[EnlightenedAtheist]

22 hours ago, Loeilad said:

As I said, I'm not that convinced that spelling is the big problem with English....unless you insist on one particular code.

 

You are not convinced or you do not want to be. The website links provided cite evidence after evidence that English spelling is a mess. I mean --just to take one choice one--  1/2 of Britons can't spell common words, 40 % of Britons rely on autocorrect (telegraph)) To be sure, this is not just about Brits. Most Commonwealth speakers would be equally clueless. I read somewhere that English-speakers are so scared of making spelling errors that they simplify their writing. Has spell-checking improved this tendency, I don't know? Have you checked illiteracy rates lately? But, here is the thing. It is NOT  because English-speakers are dumb. It is NOT because teachers are dumb. It is  because the English spelling system is DUMB. The evidence is incontrovertible. Speak to any HONEST linguistics professors (assuming the degree is legit), it is a fact. If writing in English is hard for native-speakers, imagine how hard it is for non-native speakers to decode words off a piece of paper. As explained, if a teacher focuses on learning English by just speaking and listening modes, students' skills in writing and decoding will become abysmal. Vice versa, if one were to completely focus on writing and reading, naturally students' ability to speak and understand conversations will regress. Extremes are usually not recommended and in teaching it is not. Most teachers use all four modes and, predictably, students are confused. The stubbornness of English-speakers to fix the rotten state of the |English spelling system IZ abysmal. There seems to be this insistence that everyone must cope with the mediocrity of the system when it is really the mediocrity of the system that should be addressed. In other words, it is high time that we stop passing the buck and that for every index finger that is pointing, there are 4 fingers pointing the other way. Hundreds of thousands of misspelllings in the lexicon is the issue and it cannot be swept under the carpet. It is time that heads be lifted out off the holes there are in. Don't shoot the messenger. Shoot Samuel Johnson. I did not make the choices he did. Thais, as it has been determined can learn languages with astounding efficiency and fluency. Not so English. Makes you wonder what is going on, doesn't it? 

 

Some of you might not like want I write, but sadly I am not the only one who is saying. Again, don't shoot the messenger, but --by all means-- address the underlying issue. Are you mad at him for telling the truth too?

 

 

children of the code video

 

"Unless you insist on one particular code" I am sorry. Can you elaborate?