IT consulting and Work Permits

[behappy123]

I recently moved here from the US and I have over 10 years of hands on Data Center experience, ranging from standing up Data Centers to building out cloud platforms to delivering highly available systems for Fortune 500 companies.  I've looked into a visa here but all I'm getting is that I have to open a company and have a thai shareholder or go under the Anmety treaty.  None of which sound easy or appealing.  To work for a company here, i have to have a work permit and the only way to get a work permit is to get hired by a company.  My bind is that i would much rather freelance and do IT consulting and get paid similarly to a 1099 form in the US.  Of the law firms I've spoken to, they all require 90,000THB in advance and no guarantee of any permit.

 

My question, how can I obtain a work permit that allows me to be a consultant and pay taxes in Thailand without having to start a company?  If not, is there a more efficient way than starting a company?

 

Any help if this is even possible and if so what the minimum requirements are?  If there is already a thread (looked but couldn't find one) please direct me to that thread.

 

Thanks!

[dbrenn]

A work permit can only be issued to an employee of a Thai registered company. You will have to get a job or start a business.

[jspill]

Is it something you could do online over Skype, or has to be in person? For western clients overseas? Plenty of digital nomad expats here work online with no work permit issues. 

 

I can't really see Thai companies here hiring you anyway as a freelancer, over a Thai, given the language barrier. And the pay would be low. So I'd pursue something online based on freelancing websites if possible. 

 

If you're sure about living in Thailand and buy the 5 year Thai Elite visa (500k baht) they include getting you a work permit in the cost. Could end up recouping the costs by not having to work for a company at low pay. Or people with your skills background are eligible to apply for the Iglu program, that comes with a work permit and sets you up to pay taxes. Only drawback is you pay quite high taxes to Iglu on top. 

[elviajero]

5 hours ago, jspill said:

If you're sure about living in Thailand and buy the 5 year Thai Elite visa (500k baht) they include getting you a work permit in the cost. 

No they don't. They simply advise/help members to switch to a Non-Immigrant visa, and apply for a work permit. The costs of a new visa and work permit would be payable by the member. 

[muzmurray]

12 hours ago, jspill said:

Is it something you could do online over Skype, or has to be in person? For western clients overseas? Plenty of digital nomad expats here work online with no work permit issues. 

 

No issues until a crackdown or they get reported by an angry/jealous competitor/Thai.

[LivinLOS]

12 hours ago, jspill said:

 Plenty of digital nomad expats here work online with no work permit issues. 

 

Plenty of people break the law in all kinds of ways.. until they get caught.. 

 

Hardly a way to base a lifestyle tho is it ?? 

[jspill]

39 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

Plenty of people break the law in all kinds of ways.. until they get caught.. 

 

Hardly a way to base a lifestyle tho is it ?? 

 

I said freelance for overseas clients. There's no law against that. 

 

I don't choose to convince myself it's still illegal to work online in some capacity that has nothing to do with Thailand, Thai customers, no physical presence here, etc. That lifestyle has served me pretty well so far, been working for an overseas company in Thailand 7 years now. 

[jspill]

1 hour ago, muzmurray said:

No issues until a crackdown or they get reported by an angry/jealous competitor/Thai.

 

I said consult for overseas clients, not Thais, or the customers of Thais. No one need know where you are in the world, if you consult on Upwork / Freelancer.com or such sites. 

[chiang mai]

Despite your skills you'll find it difficult to freelance in IT in Thailand, unless you have the backing of a large consulting firm or similar. PWC has a consulting arm here albeit not a very big one, mutli nationals use firms out of KL Sing or HK.

 

EDIT TO ADD: you'll also need to speak Thai fluently to have any chance of sucess.

[yellowboat]

Thailand is NOT an appealing place for people like you.  Live there but work in Singapore, Cambodia, Vietnam, Hong Kong and Shanghai where your skill are valued.  Set up a Hong Kong or Singapore company.   HK company takes a day to set up. 

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, jspill said:

 

I said freelance for overseas clients. There's no law against that. 

 

I don't choose to convince myself it's still illegal to work online in some capacity that has nothing to do with Thailand, Thai customers, no physical presence here, etc. That lifestyle has served me pretty well so far, been working for an overseas company in Thailand 7 years now. 

 

So you have a work permit ?? 

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Do-need-0145business-visa-work-online/1175

 

Quote

 

Doing business online is considered a type of work, so foreigners are required to have a work permit to do so. 

 

Somkiat Baiadul, an officer at the work permit division of the Phuket Department of Employment

 

 

[LivinLOS]

And for anyone wanting to the the OPs question legally, its very easy to be employed by a BOI registered umbrella company. 

 

They employ you, pay your income taxes and social security, sort out your visa documents and handle your extensions.. Etc etc etc.. 

 

Of course, paying taxes has a cost, same as it does anywhere in the world. 

[jspill]

26 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

So you have a work permit ?? 

 

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Do-need-0145business-visa-work-online/1175

 

You've been linking that to me for years now :) They have interpreted the question as in doing business IN the country, in the sense of Thai customers, involving Thai currency, potentially taking jobs from Thais, etc. Like the first quote you left out, the first guy refers to 'working or starting a business in Thailand'. 

 

Freelancing on Upwork isn't working in Thailand. 

[LivinLOS]

32 minutes ago, jspill said:

 

You've been linking that to me for years now :) They have interpreted the question as in doing business IN the country, in the sense of Thai customers, involving Thai currency, potentially taking jobs from Thais, etc. Like the first quote you left out, the first guy refers to 'working or starting a business in Thailand'. 

 

Freelancing on Upwork isn't working in Thailand. 

 

You can remain in denial as long as you like.. Freelancing from Thailand is working in Thailand.. Every labor dept statement has confirmed the law as it is written. Doing business (freelancing) online or off, requires a work permit.. Even uploading a blog post, to a revenue generating site you own, is work.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532
 

Quote

However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom.

 

 

This has no Thai customers, no Thai currency, and not taking jobs from Thais... Yet is clearly considered 'work' as per the law. 

How can you continue to deny that simple clear fact ?? 

[muzmurray]

46 minutes ago, jspill said:

You've been linking that to me for years now :) They have interpreted the question as in doing business IN the country, in the sense of Thai customers, involving Thai currency, potentially taking jobs from Thais, etc. Like the first quote you left out, the first guy refers to 'working or starting a business in Thailand'. 

 

Freelancing on Upwork isn't working in Thailand. 

 

Jspill - here is a quick breakdown of what a quality guy you are for Thailand;

 

600 days overstay - illegal

smokes cannabis regularly, (your words from another thread) - illegal

Working on a tourist visa or visa exempt - illegal

 

and of course, not paying income tax on your earnings that you earn while YOU are in Thailand.

 

Oh yes Jspill, you are a paragon of virtue and abiding the law !

[seancbk]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

Quote

However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom.

 

 

This has no Thai customers, no Thai currency, and not taking jobs from Thais... Yet is clearly considered 'work' as per the law. 

How can you continue to deny that simple clear fact ?? 

Which means that every single person who comes here on holiday but replies to work emails from back home or checks on their website and processes some orders etc is 'working illegally' 
 

[jspill]

So why are there no digital nomads in prison for e.g. blogging, in Thailand or any other country for that matter.

[behappy123]

Thanks all,

 

I guess I'm a little dismayed that the Thai Board of Investment wouldn't support Tech folks who want to come work and do IT consulting, pay taxes and contribute to the thai economy.  Won't stop me from trying though...

 

Good news is that my Thai is getting better :)  I'm on book two (first grade reading level :)) of Manee/Mana.

[darrendsd]

1 hour ago, LivinLOS said:

 

You can remain in denial as long as you like.. Freelancing from Thailand is working in Thailand.. Every labor dept statement has confirmed the law as it is written. Doing business (freelancing) online or off, requires a work permit.. Even uploading a blog post, to a revenue generating site you own, is work.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532
 

 

This has no Thai customers, no Thai currency, and not taking jobs from Thais... Yet is clearly considered 'work' as per the law. 

How can you continue to deny that simple clear fact ?? 

 

Even Immigration can't agree if a WP is needed for DN's so it is not a "clear fact"

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/08/thai-immigration-officials-say-digital-nomads-ok-to-work-on-tourist-visas/

 

 

[narak34]

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

Which means that every single person who comes here on holiday but replies to work emails from back home or checks on their website and processes some orders etc is 'working illegally' 
 

 

If you are here for more than 3 months they would probably consider that yes. Strictly from a legal point of view you are probably correct though. But prostitution is also illegal.

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, darrendsd said:

 

Even Immigration can't agree if a WP is needed for DN's so it is not a "clear fact"

 

https://asiancorrespondent.com/2014/08/thai-immigration-officials-say-digital-nomads-ok-to-work-on-tourist-visas/

 

 

 

 

Immigration isnt in charge of labor law.. Asking immigration is like asking my mechanic if I need a root canal. 

 

"its not thier problem" is how they answered it.. It was then miss quoted.. And repeated over and over by nomads as a rule. 

 

Go post any clearance of a labor dept or employment dept person.. You know they ones actually involved with those laws.

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, seancbk said:

Which means that every single person who comes here on holiday but replies to work emails from back home or checks on their website and processes some orders etc is 'working illegally' 
 

 

Yes thats correct.. Of course anyone 'working' on thier 'work' emails or 'processes some orders' is in violation of labor law. 

[LivinLOS]

1 hour ago, behappy123 said:

I guess I'm a little dismayed that the Thai Board of Investment wouldn't support Tech folks who want to come work and do IT consulting, pay taxes and contribute to the thai economy.  Won't stop me from trying though...

 

 

They kind of do.. Tech is one of the BOI categories which can get dispensations on needing Thai employees.. Exactly as Iglu does.. However the next issue is freelancers are not prepared to make the BOI level of work. 

 

Which is exactly why iglu has set the precise service online freelancers need... The issue then becomes "what pay 30% of my gross".. er yeah.. 

[mngmn]

As I predicted to myself when I first read his post it has degenerated into more of the same. OP you got your answer in the first couple of replies.  The type of work you want to do is not really possible in Thailand.  I meet plenty of people on flights from Sinagapore, Malaysia and HK who do weekly commute when they are doing consulting assignments and enjoy the down time between assignments in Thailand.  If you decide to work off shore from Thailand you need to play your cards close to your chest.  Not only Thais but plenty of jealous ex-pats will dob you in.

[chiang mai]

1 hour ago, jspill said:

So why are there no digital nomads in prison for e.g. blogging, in Thailand or any other country for that matter.

 

Who says there aren't?

[darrendsd]

26 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

 

 

Immigration isnt in charge of labor law.. Asking immigration is like asking my mechanic if I need a root canal. 

 

"its not thier problem" is how they answered it.. It was then miss quoted.. And repeated over and over by nomads as a rule. 

 

Go post any clearance of a labor dept or employment dept person.. You know they ones actually involved with those laws.

 

Well it was you that posted a link to prove your point that a WP is needed to a article where a IMMIGRATION OFFICER said that a WP is needed, now you're saying Immigration Officers shouldn't be asked?? Make your mind up!!

 

If you can post any links where a DN has been convicted of working without a WP then you have a valid point,

 

Until then it is not a "clear fact" that one is needed.

 

[JackThompson]

 

3 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

And for anyone wanting to the the OPs question legally, its very easy to be employed by a BOI registered umbrella company.  They employ you, pay your income taxes and social security, sort out your visa documents and handle your extensions.. Etc etc etc.. 

 

Of course, paying taxes has a cost, same as it does anywhere in the world. 

 

8 minutes ago, LivinLOS said:

They kind of do.. Tech is one of the BOI categories which can get dispensations on needing Thai employees.. Exactly as Iglu does.. However the next issue is freelancers are not prepared to make the BOI level of work. 

 

Which is exactly why iglu has set the precise service online freelancers need... The issue then becomes "what pay 30% of my gross".. er yeah.. 

 

I'd be happy to pay the taxes on my businesses if I could re-incorporate them here (I have to pay taxes to the USA otherwise), but 30% of GROSS (invoiced-amount) is well-above the cost of my taxes.  NET is something else - my businesses employ people to do the day-to-day operations, so I'd need to be able to deduct expenses.  There is no Thai option to accommodate like HK is purported to do.  Speaking of that ...

 

4 hours ago, yellowboat said:

Thailand is NOT an appealing place for people like you.  Live there but work in Singapore, Cambodia, Vietnam, Hong Kong and Shanghai where your skill are valued.  Set up a Hong Kong or Singapore company.   HK company takes a day to set up. 

 

I have asked about this before, when I saw it mentioned.  Doing this would allow me to reduce my US-taxes to only my withdrawals of owner's equity from the company-account to my personal one (the USA and China tax citizens on overseas income even if you don't live there).  The next possible step, would be opening a branch in Thailand, which would provide a means to qualify for a B-Visa, etc.

 

I have been unable to find a reference to a reputable firm to set up a business in HK.  I found lots of "ads" and sites offering such online, but have no idea which are scams, or what the fair-cost for doing this is.  I know you can rent an "office" of sorts for like $30/mo, to qualify for having an in-country location - but what about getting the firm registered, bank-account set-up, etc?   Any pointers / references would be greatly appreciated. 

[NOWHERE]

2 hours ago, muzmurray said:

 

Jspill - here is a quick breakdown of what a quality guy you are for Thailand;

 

600 days overstay - illegal

smokes cannabis regularly, (your words from another thread) - illegal

Working on a tourist visa or visa exempt - illegal

 

and of course, not paying income tax on your earnings that you earn while YOU are in Thailand.

 

Oh yes Jspill, you are a paragon of virtue and abiding the law !

Love this theater. Such spice.

[LivinLOS]

36 minutes ago, darrendsd said:

 

Well it was you that posted a link to prove your point that a WP is needed to a article where a IMMIGRATION OFFICER said that a WP is needed, now you're saying Immigration Officers shouldn't be asked?? Make your mind up!!

 

If you can post any links where a DN has been convicted of working without a WP then you have a valid point,

 

Until then it is not a "clear fact" that one is needed.

 

 

 

Both of my links included comments from the employment officers or labor dept.. The immigration officer you try to distract with was answering about immigration rules, eg visas.. He said get a B visa BTW. 

Recently chinese language gang busted for purely online work.. Another group charged for lack of correct visa and work permit when also busted for porn. 

[LivinLOS]

35 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

I'd be happy to pay the taxes on my businesses if I could re-incorporate them here (I have to pay taxes to the USA otherwise), but 30% of GROSS (invoiced-amount) is well-above the cost of my taxes.  NET is something else - my businesses employ people to do the day-to-day operations, so I'd need to be able to deduct expenses.  There is no Thai option to accommodate like HK is purported to do.  Speaking of that ... 

 

Of course you can.. It costs money to do so.. As it does anywhere..