irrigation set up

kannot · December 15, 2016

1 minute ago, Strange said:

One on the right is the kind I'm used to at home. The cheap polish one. The one in my pic is the REAL cheap one lol

yep I think they call em Square D's dont they

Strange · December 15, 2016

2 minutes ago, kannot said:

yep I think they call em Square D's dont they

Exactly.

How much did that pressure tank cost & how much did it cost for the well to be drilled?

kannot · December 15, 2016

27 minutes ago, Strange said:

Exactly.

How much did that pressure tank cost & how much did it cost for the well to be drilled?

The 300 litre was about 30k baht Grundfos 10 year guarantee ( i dont want any problems) bought direct thru Grundfos in BKK we got some discount off that, the smaller one is 200 litres but I dont remember the exact price, the well is a long story but it was 150k, we ended up with 2 wells for that price by sheer chance as the first well according to the drillers didnt really produce enough for them the second one was much better but both are useable, the first lower yield 500-1000lit hour you do have to be a bit careful. One is 80 metres deep the other is 55 metres deep ( 6000 lit hour), both have a 1hp Franklin motored Super hurricane pump ( hybrid) they use 1.5mm 4 core cable, no problems in 2 years so far. Water quality is excellent just the luck of rock formations round here I guess, we had it fully tested in BKK that cost us 5k some govt lab?

Edited December 15, 2016 by kannot

Strange · December 15, 2016

10 minutes ago, kannot said:

the well is a long story but it was 150k, we ended up with 2 wells for that price by sheer chance as the first well according to the drillers didnt really produce enough for them the second one was much better but both are useable,

So it was an agree price of 150K and a guaranteed flow rate? First one didn't produce enough so they had to drill another? Gawd thats expensive. I had a 4" 200' well drilled in Florida 2 years ago with a steel case for $3500. Installed basically the exact same system that you have now. No idea about Thai price for a well that deep as I've only been around shallow 25m +/- wells.

14 minutes ago, kannot said:

we had it fully tested in BKK that cost us 5k some govt lab?

This water sample, did you send it by post? Or did they come and get it themselves? How long did the result take?

Is there an option for more detailed testing? Or was there only 1 option? Say you had a chemical smell, or calcium looking stuff in the water, is there a more comprehensive test available to pinpoint contaminates?

I just saved your pic for future reference. Ill be using that in the future for sure. Ive been looking for something like that.

kannot · December 15, 2016

8 minutes ago, Strange said:

So it was an agree price of 150K and a guaranteed flow rate? First one didn't produce enough so they had to drill another? Gawd thats expensive. I had a 4" 200' well drilled in Florida 2 years ago with a steel case for $3500. Installed basically the exact same system that you have now. No idea about Thai price for a well that deep as I've only been around shallow 25m +/- wells.

This water sample, did you send it by post? Or did they come and get it themselves? How long did the result take?

Is there an option for more detailed testing? Or was there only 1 option? Say you had a chemical smell, or calcium looking stuff in the water, is there a more comprehensive test available to pinpoint contaminates?

I just saved your pic for future reference. Ill be using that in the future for sure. Ive been looking for something like that.

Yes wells round here are EXPENSIVE they had to go thru a lot of rock....my land is very stony and the sub sediments are rock! On top of all that due to drought in Thailand the last few years MORE wells are being drilled and prices have shot up, the well drillers are REALLY busy

Pranburi dam by me has been very low and hasnt really fully recovered yet from the last few years lack of rainfall.

Yes it was guaranteed minimum of 1000 lit an hour or no pay.

My Wife took the water sample in to them as she lives in BKK,off hand it was about 3 weeks for the result which I was VERY happy with.

They do offer more extensive testing but i just wanted a "general" idea of the quality

The wells are 6 inch bore with 4 inch plastic casing drop pipe screwed and glued together with stainless screws ( my screws not theirs and also my extra strong glue) 1.5 inch pipe 13.5 bar

Edited December 15, 2016 by kannot

CGW · December 16, 2016

^ That's a nice set up kannot, personally I would take the water from the deepwell back to a holding tank then pump into the system with a "cheaper" pump just to save wear and tear on the submersible.

The water sample is good, NTU excellent, acidity a little high but not that bad, sure you have installed good quality stainless fittings throughout the house as the water will eat up any "cheap" fittings - found that out the hard way!

The pressure vessel looks to be very good quality and well worth the extra cost, one of the reasons I never installed a pressure tank in my present house is I didn't like the quality of the vessels I was looking at! & with my luck!! didn't want to be near it If it decided to fail!

kannot · December 16, 2016

48 minutes ago, CGW said:

^ That's a nice set up kannot, personally I would take the water from the deepwell back to a holding tank then pump into the system with a "cheaper" pump just to save wear and tear on the submersible.

The water sample is good, NTU excellent, acidity a little high but not that bad, sure you have installed good quality stainless fittings throughout the house as the water will eat up any "cheap" fittings - found that out the hard way!

The pressure vessel looks to be very good quality and well worth the extra cost, one of the reasons I never installed a pressure tank in my present house is I didn't like the quality of the vessels I was looking at! & with my luck!! didn't want to be near it If it decided to fail!

Yep I hear what youre saying ...but for me .............first is holding tank will need maintenance, keeping clean, maybe some algae will grow in it who knows + all the associated plumbing gubbins, I dont like pipes open to the sun here at all, none of mine are anywhere , water will get warmer in a tank, then theres "another pump" if that goes wrong etc. etc trying to keep things to a minimum, also this water comes from 100+ metres away to the two houses and travels underground at 1metre deep which should cool it down also.....I dont like warm water much, horse for courses. Getting the submersible out isnt that much of a problem, i designed the building it sits in with an easily detachable roof, can have it off in 10 minutes.......so to speak

Heres the trench with 1.5 inch hdpe pipe in and also the 10mm2 electric cable in ldpe trunking

Edited December 16, 2016 by kannot

CGW · December 16, 2016

^ I figured you must have a way of getting the submersible in and out easily, doesn't look like it, so well done, good job.

I put my water into a small stainless tank, I dont like to store water, prefer it to be changed out frequently, I have painted the tank black to help it heat up! Horses for courses!

kannot · December 16, 2016

Been out shopping, found a regulator pressure control unit at Global house, bit pricey 2k baht but "all in one" less mucking about. Heres both the pump and the controller.............it says if the water isnt clean to use a filter.......just wondering " how much of a filter? have go the normal Thai plastic type but the holes are a bit large, just wondering how long itll survive........... now?? what are the two brass screws for? bleeding out air?

160 lit max per minute is enough for me 1.5hp 7.5a

kannot · December 16, 2016

9 minutes ago, CGW said:

^ I figured you must have a way of getting the submersible in and out easily, doesn't look like it, so well done, good job.

I put my water into a small stainless tank, I dont like to store water, prefer it to be changed out frequently, I have painted the tank black to help it heat up! Horses for courses!

hahahahaah free hot water eh.................careful you dont scald yer "tackle".....of course what you should have done is paint the top half white and the bottom half black for extra circulation....maybe then throw ina couple of tea bags,hey presto worlds biggest tea maker

Edited December 16, 2016 by kannot

CGW · December 16, 2016

^ The water gets pretty cool in Isarn this time of year, 8k w heater gets it OK ish!

The top slotted brass plug on the pump is for bleeding, don't know what the one on the side is for, not seen that before!! and i have seen some pumps in my time.............

Edited December 16, 2016 by CGW

Strange · December 16, 2016

On paper the pump looks capable. How much was the pump? Can you post the sticker on the pump? As far as a filter goes, I would not worry about it. Its fine for watering grass.

What I'm really concerned about is that "regulator pressure control" unit you have. Im not sure what it does. Looks like a cheapie. Not sure how it works.

Can post pics of sticker & overview how it works?

Strange · December 16, 2016

The screws you illustrated are going to have something to do with maintaining the pumps prime.

kannot · December 16, 2016

2 hours ago, Strange said:

On paper the pump looks capable. How much was the pump? Can you post the sticker on the pump? As far as a filter goes, I would not worry about it. Its fine for watering grass.

What I'm really concerned about is that "regulator pressure control" unit you have. Im not sure what it does. Looks like a cheapie. Not sure how it works.

Can post pics of sticker & overview how it works?

Its the combined pressure switch and pressure gauge inside is the cheap type of pressure gauge (adjustable) heres a pic..by sticker on the pump do you mean the ratings for it? attached anyway 8500 baht

Think I can get away with a 3/4 inch pressure relief valve..............difficult to find a 1 inch unless you know somewhere

Edited December 16, 2016 by kannot

kannot · December 16, 2016

http://www.italtecnica.com/index.php?ip=4&cat=1&prd=6&l=2

Link to what it is

kannot · December 16, 2016

Reading up on this BRIO 2000 it works differently to a pressure switch, it only has a cut IN feature

It starts the electric pump after a pressure decrease (taps opening) and stops it when the fluid flow interrupts at the maximum pressure level of the electric pump (taps closing) eeeeeeeeeek that could be 10bar?? Although I expect this pump can probably only reach about 50-60psi max anyway (4bar)

http://www.italtecnica.com/pdf.php?prd=6

Edited December 16, 2016 by kannot

Strange · December 16, 2016

1 hour ago, kannot said:

Reading up on this BRIO 2000 it works differently to a pressure switch, it only has a cut IN feature

It starts the electric pump after a pressure decrease (taps opening) and stops it when the fluid flow interrupts at the maximum pressure level of the electric pump (taps closing) eeeeeeeeeek that could be 10bar?? Although I expect this pump can probably only reach about 50-60psi max anyway (4bar)

http://www.italtecnica.com/pdf.php?prd=6

lol

I was reading up on the english version of your BRIO and thought the same thing. IT appears to be the same kind of thing that the Hitachi constant pressure pumps (without a pressure tank) use.

It looks like it cuts in when it senses a pressure drop (open the tap), then cuts out due to a flow drop (close the tap) with a max pressure cutout of 10 Bar (not adjustable), and also has some kind of feature that will cut out if it thinks the pump is running dry. Or something lol. It definitely operates different than a pressure switch and 10 bar is like 145 psi - a bit much.

In other words - kinda pointless it seems for your setup. The pressure switches that you have or the cheapie that I showed only sense pressure, the water does not flow through them, so no worries about filters or clogging. So there is that too.

3 hours ago, kannot said:

Think I can get away with a 3/4 inch pressure relief valve..............difficult to find a 1 inch unless you know somewhere

Did you find any relief valves at Global or anything? I know you can find some online from aliexpress but thats 2-3 weeks shipping time. Thats what I would do.

1 hour ago, kannot said:

Although I expect this pump can probably only reach about 50-60psi max anyway (4bar)

Maybe, and if thats the case then your sprinklers will operate just fine at 50-60 psi. The wells in the states that I did were 40 cut in and 60 cut out. Sprinklers, showers, toilets, etc... all operated just fine in that pressure range.

Im not sure this is the case with your pump. If its even a little oversized (and thats a good thing) then its very likely that the pressure can build over 60 psi over time. How long of a timeframe I don't know.

kannot · December 16, 2016

38 minutes ago, Strange said:

lol

I was reading up on the english version of your BRIO and thought the same thing. IT appears to be the same kind of thing that the Hitachi constant pressure pumps (without a pressure tank) use.

It looks like it cuts in when it senses a pressure drop (open the tap), then cuts out due to a flow drop (close the tap) with a max pressure cutout of 10 Bar (not adjustable), and also has some kind of feature that will cut out if it thinks the pump is running dry. Or something lol. It definitely operates different than a pressure switch and 10 bar is like 145 psi - a bit much.

In other words - kinda pointless it seems for your setup. The pressure switches that you have or the cheapie that I showed only sense pressure, the water does not flow through them, so no worries about filters or clogging. So there is that too.

Did you find any relief valves at Global or anything? I know you can find some online from aliexpress but thats 2-3 weeks shipping time. Thats what I would do.

Maybe, and if thats the case then your sprinklers will operate just fine at 50-60 psi. The wells in the states that I did were 40 cut in and 60 cut out. Sprinklers, showers, toilets, etc... all operated just fine in that pressure range.

Im not sure this is the case with your pump. If its even a little oversized (and thats a good thing) then its very likely that the pressure can build over 60 psi over time. How long of a timeframe I don't know.

aha..... BUT the pump has an absolute max total head in metres of 47 and the plate on it says 22-46 this equates to about 65psi "max" the pump wont go higher than this sooooooo itll never reach more than 65psi.in the system?.......I turn on the pump, pressure builds to its max 65psi I assume brio can sense when pressure no longer increases in the system and turns off the pump, i open some sprinklers it falls to lets say i set this thing at 2 bar 29psi and then when pressure drops to 2 bar it turns on the pump till the pump reaches its own maximum

( whatever type of pump all will be different but most seem to hover round 55-60) then turns off again.

Now how do you attach a pressure gauge if i go back to the system u mention as I havent seen any adapters to do this, my well systems use a nice manifold where everything has its place

No relief valves at Global, I got all mine in the UK Im looking for a 5 bar 72 psi which Ive found ( but surely if pumps maximum pressure is 65 psi then a 4 bar would be enough as it will never get the pressure up high enough to open a 5 bar?

Might have to order from England and get a friend to either post or deliver it when they come,..............had to do this for a few parts inc stainless 1.25 inch manifold.

If anyone knows any stockist in Thailand let me know..this type in the link although I have seen some with built in pressure gauges also

http://www.altecnic.co.uk/plumbing-heating/safety-relief-valves/

Strange · December 16, 2016

17 minutes ago, kannot said:

BUT the pump has an absolute max total head in metres of 47 and the plate on it says 22-46 this equates to about 65psi "max" the pump wont go higher than this sooooooo itll never reach more than 65psi.in the system?.

Honestly, usually these things are max "Operating" pressure. Either a safe range or a capability range. There is nothing on or in the pump to limit pressure & thats the problem with these things. Sometimes they are written in a way that means at such & such "head" and such & such "distance" etc. they are "capable" of a "max" psi of "bla"

In other words, I wouldn't depend on what the plate says as a "max psi" as its not a pump limit, its operational limit. It can very much overpressure. Centrifugal pumps are not as bad as submersible pumps, but the danger is still there, let alone you want a stable pressure.

37 minutes ago, kannot said:

I turn on the pump, pressure builds to its max 65psi I assume brio can sense when pressure no longer increases in the system and turns off the pump,

What I read on your instruction manual what that the Brio has a minimum pressure sensitivity only. Set that at 2 bar. After that, it senses FLOW. So it keeps the system charged to 2 bar, open a tap, it senses a flow, turns the pump on, close the tap, FLOW stops and the pump shuts off. It does not sense a max pressure. Its not capable. Your pump has no pressure limit, its not capable either. So I wouldn't depend on this as it works different.

Strange · December 16, 2016

50 minutes ago, kannot said:

Now how do you attach a pressure gauge if i go back to the system u mention as I havent seen any adapters to do this, my well systems use a nice manifold where everything has its place

Staying in line with a cheapie system, I don't see why you would need a manifold. You can buy PVC "T" fittings with 1/2" pipe thread nipples and thread in a pressure gauge anywhere in the system you want. Sold everywhere and just as good as a manifold for this setup.

Something like:

kannot · December 16, 2016

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

Staying in line with a cheapie system, I don't see why you would need a manifold. You can buy PVC "T" fittings with 1/2" pipe thread nipples and thread in a pressure gauge anywhere in the system you want. Sold everywhere and just as good as a manifold for this setup.

Something like:

ive never seen one ill go have a look tomorrow thanks.............on my way to take back the brio :-( still struggling with where to get relief valve here

Strange · December 16, 2016

13 minutes ago, kannot said:

ive never seen one ill go have a look tomorrow thanks.............on my way to take back the brio :-( still struggling with where to get relief valve here

Global is guaranteed to have it. Local hardware stores (mom & pop) will have it for sure too. Same same the gauge.

Strange · December 16, 2016

There has got to be a place to locally get the relief valve. Totally common in just about everything to do with water & air.

kannot · December 16, 2016

2 minutes ago, Strange said:

There has got to be a place to locally get the relief valve. Totally common in just about everything to do with water & air.

ill have to take a photo with me..............are they like the one ive shown or different loooking?

Strange · December 16, 2016

2 hours ago, kannot said:

ive never seen one ill go have a look tomorrow thanks.............on my way to take back the brio :-( still struggling with where to get relief valve here

2 hours ago, kannot said:

ill have to take a photo with me..............are they like the one ive shown or different loooking?

OK, I have been re-reading this thread, looking at your pump and what you need it to do and I think the relief valves you picture and I picture are not going to work very well. They are more of a pop-off release safety thing rather than an actual regulator meant to bypass continually non-stop. Its probably gonna cause pulsation & other weirdness.

IMO if you can take the Brio back and get the 2000 baht, put that 2000 baht towards a non-code bypass valve. A real one. With this, you can run 5 sprinklers or 30 and not have to worry about using a pressure switch to "Control" anything. This valve will work as a "regulator" and its adjustable from 1 - 300 psi. The "Continuous Bypass Relief" and "Pressure Regulation" in the "Applications" part of the link are the key points.

They are expensive though. But worth it imho.

I found a thailand company that has good stuff on thier website:

http://www.epmc.co.th/Safety Valves/kunkle.html

And the valve that I think would work well:

http://www.epmc.co.th/Safety Valves/pdfs/Kunkle Model 19 - 20 Safety Relief Valve.pdf

Strange · December 16, 2016

Also, that PVC "T" fitting with the little threaded nipple you can screw in any pressure switch into the threaded nipple as a port to measure from. No need a manifold. You can use the pressure switch as a very simple way to cut out the pump due to over pressure. For the sake of safety & good advice, I would recommend it.

The cheapie switch I pictured just switches the "L" part of power and screws into the port. So you would have the bypass valve I mentioned above doing all the work of regulating your pressure, and you would have a secondary pressure switch to kick the pump off in an overpressure emergency. Double safety.

Now, with all that said, you can easily setup everything, pump, pressure gauges, etc, and leave yourself a capped access point on your PVC setup. Try running your pump and sprinklers without the bypass regulator and very closely watch your pressure gauge. If the pressure is acceptable without the bypass regulator, and it does not climb over time, then you might not need it. Meaning you could save the cash as that valve is pricey.

However, I would imagine you are going to need it if you want to have the functionality of running either 10-20-30 sprinklers. Nothing saying you can't try it without the bypass valve running different combos of sprinklers and closely watching your pressure over time.

kannot · December 16, 2016

4 hours ago, Strange said:

OK, I have been re-reading this thread, looking at your pump and what you need it to do and I think the relief valves you picture and I picture are not going to work very well. They are more of a pop-off release safety thing rather than an actual regulator meant to bypass continually non-stop. Its probably gonna cause pulsation & other weirdness.

IMO if you can take the Brio back and get the 2000 baht, put that 2000 baht towards a non-code bypass valve. A real one. With this, you can run 5 sprinklers or 30 and not have to worry about using a pressure switch to "Control" anything. This valve will work as a "regulator" and its adjustable from 1 - 300 psi. The "Continuous Bypass Relief" and "Pressure Regulation" in the "Applications" part of the link are the key points.

They are expensive though. But worth it imho.

I found a thailand company that has good stuff on thier website:

http://www.epmc.co.th/Safety Valves/kunkle.html

And the valve that I think would work well:

http://www.epmc.co.th/Safety Valves/pdfs/Kunkle Model 19 - 20 Safety Relief Valve.pdf

I like the look of that valve type BUT which "exact" one do I need the model 20 as in your photo whose range is 1-300 psi

ie this one • Model 20-D Variation 05: 50 to 150 psig spring range

If you can tell me the EXACT one Ill get my Wife to give them a call for price.............. saw U.S price is $239 so about 10,000 baht

Thanks for your time by the way

Model Descriptions Model 19: All bronze, equipped with handwheel for easy adjustment within spring ranges.

Model 19M: Same as model 19 except SS trim (seat and disc). Available 21/2" and 3" only. For higher pressure settings or severe applications.

Model 20: All bronze, with pressure-tight cap. Suitable for maximum back pressure of 50 psig.1

Model 20M: Same as model 20 except SS trim. Available in 21/2" and 3" only (seat and disc). For higher pressure settings or severe applications. Maximum back pressure of 50 psig.1

Model 20P: Same as model 20 except with packed lift lever. Suitable for maximum back pressure of 50 psig.

Model 20MP: Same as model 20M except with packed lift lever. Maximum back pressure of 50 psig.1 Model 200A: Special non-chattering design. Recommended for light oils and continuous by-pass or pressure regulation. UL842 listed for light oil service. Available 3/4" to 11/2" sizes. Female NPT connections only. Model 200H: Same as model 20. UL842 listed for use with fuel oils. Available 3/4" to 2" sizes.

Edited December 16, 2016 by kannot

kannot · December 16, 2016

4 hours ago, Strange said:

Also, that PVC "T" fitting with the little threaded nipple you can screw in any pressure switch into the threaded nipple as a port to measure from. No need a manifold. You can use the pressure switch as a very simple way to cut out the pump due to over pressure. For the sake of safety & good advice, I would recommend it.

The cheapie switch I pictured just switches the "L" part of power and screws into the port. So you would have the bypass valve I mentioned above doing all the work of regulating your pressure, and you would have a secondary pressure switch to kick the pump off in an overpressure emergency. Double safety.

Now, with all that said, you can easily setup everything, pump, pressure gauges, etc, and leave yourself a capped access point on your PVC setup. Try running your pump and sprinklers without the bypass regulator and very closely watch your pressure gauge. If the pressure is acceptable without the bypass regulator, and it does not climb over time, then you might not need it. Meaning you could save the cash as that valve is pricey.

However, I would imagine you are going to need it if you want to have the functionality of running either 10-20-30 sprinklers. Nothing saying you can't try it without the bypass valve running different combos of sprinklers and closely watching your pressure over time.

Think what Ill do is as a test try it without the pricey relief valve FIRST and see what happens, there is also the scenario (daily) of all sprinklers will be off and some hand watering by a hose which Il have to take into account.

So the pressure SWITCH is wired normally? ( saw you mention cheap switch "L" connection) ie the square D type and Ill set cut off at about 60psi my only concern then would be how many times it turns the pump off on though manufacturer says 50 times a day apparently.

Until I get it running I guess I wont know how this pump will cope or what pressures it will produce as my sprinkler system has a fair few elbows and joints all of which along with length ( friction loss) will lower psi anyway meaning it might never reach too high a pressure anyway.

Strange · December 17, 2016

Sorry didn't think to include this lol

Either one of these will work, seems same except one has a hand wheel to turn, and the other has a nut thing to turn. I would go for the Model 19.

3 hours ago, kannot said:

Model Descriptions Model 19: All bronze, equipped with handwheel for easy adjustment within spring ranges.

3 hours ago, kannot said:

Model 20: All bronze, with pressure-tight cap. Suitable for maximum back pressure of 50 psig.1

Model 20 says it can be used in back pressure situations but you won't have any back pressure to speak of really.

And in whatever size - 1" 3/4" Etc...

Also, when you wife calls have her ask if they have a Thai manufactured replacement. The one I linked to is imported I believe.

Edited December 17, 2016 by Strange

Strange · December 17, 2016

4 hours ago, kannot said:

Think what Ill do is as a test try it without the pricey relief valve FIRST and see what happens, there is also the scenario (daily) of all sprinklers will be off and some hand watering by a hose which Il have to take into account.

So the pressure SWITCH is wired normally? ( saw you mention cheap switch "L" connection) ie the square D type and Ill set cut off at about 60psi my only concern then would be how many times it turns the pump off on though manufacturer says 50 times a day apparently.

Until I get it running I guess I wont know how this pump will cope or what pressures it will produce as my sprinkler system has a fair few elbows and joints all of which along with length ( friction loss) will lower psi anyway meaning it might never reach too high a pressure anyway.

Yep the pressure switch is wired completely normal. If using your switches, wire it completely normal.

The problem is like you say, if you don't use a good bypass regulator, the switch is likely going to short-cycle like a bastard causing all kinds of wear, pulsation, and weirdness.

Might not need the bypass for all 30 sprinklers, maybe not for 10 sprinklers, but probably will with a hose.

If you are going to try it without the bypass, I would DEFINITELY install the pressure switch for testing to see what you can get away with. 10-20-30 sprinklers, a hose, etc... You would install it after the pump but before you would have your provision for the bypass. Wire it exactly the same as you would normally do.

Set it cut out at 60 PSI (and by doing so will cut-in at 40 psi) or whatever you think the maximum safe operating range will be, and test. I would use it for safety, to cut out the pump from going crazy (during testing) if it turns out to generate a lot more pressure than expected. I would not depend on the switch to do any "work" or to regulate anything.

5 hours ago, kannot said:

$239 so about 10,000 baht

Yep expensive, but worth it. That little gem is whats gonna make the whole thing work from just a single garden hose to 30 sprinklers.

Man I know they are going to have a Thai made valve somewhere they are completely common things.

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