It's All In The Tones !

[midas]

I don't know where I'm going wrong trying to learn Thai

Learning the actual vocabulary -or the individual words is not so much a problem

-what is incredibly daunting are the tones- I have never been able to master them ?

Last month I went to Cambodia and as an " experiment " I tried to see how

proficient I could become speaking Khmer in one month and I had

incredible success because I have just been back a month later to Phnom Penh after

studying Khmer every day during the last month for about one hour

a day. There are no tones in the Khmer language and people could actually

understand me !!! Unlike my problem in Thailand when I don't seem get

the right tone when I speak. I was told by a music teacher I have a good ear

for music so I don't know how to overcome this hurdle

Has anyone had any similar experiences ?

[meadish_sweetball]

I am not sure what methods you have tried so far for learning tones? You also don't say if you have tried in a formal setting with a teacher, or just at home by yourself?

The basic method I used was contrasting exercises, best achieved with a Thai native speaker or a foreigner who can do the tones perfectly.

These exercises force you to listen for tones, and they require you can write Thai down in a way that shows all distinguishing features with no ambiguities. We were taught the AUA and Haas phonetic transcriptions of Thai, which are both based on the International Phonetic Alphabet. When you write Thai with this system, all the sounds in a word can be properly represented.

Some examples of this system (Haas - but AUA works similarly, just that AUA has p t k for the silent finals where Haas has b d g, also, Haas uses y for อึ อื and j for ย whereas AUA has a 'u' with a line through it for อึ อื and uses 'y' for ย.) Both use double vowel to indicate long sound, and single vowel for short sound. The glottal stop, initial อ before vowel, and at the end of ะ vowels is indicated by a question mark without a dot below.

phìd = wrong

phíd = poison

pìd = close

mág = to have a habit of

màag = betel

mâag = much, many

Our teacher would say a syllable and we were to write it with this transcription system on the whiteboard. Any mistakes were corrected, and we would have to repeat the word after the teacher until we had it right.

Another part of tonal training would be in learning how to read Thai script. We were taught reading with the aid of the AUA books as well - they introduce consonants and vowels gradually, divided into groups based on their distinguishing features. That way, you learn the tone rules that apply to each consonant group. We would read out syllables from the book in Thai script, and our teacher would correct our pronunciation, including tones.

It should be said that we had two people in class who were pretty much unable to do tones. For one of them, an American man, the problem was that he could not shake the intonation patterns from his native language.

For example, when he tried to learn the numbers, he would count one to ten in the same way as you would in English, with rising intonation for each number until the last, where the intonation would fall.

Obviously this is incorrect for Thai because it messes up the tones on each syllable.

I was recommended when learning tones, that you need to first learn to void your speech of all feelings.

This is a good advice, since we express feelings with intonation in our native languages. Take note of the rise and fall of your voice when you express annoyance, pleading, happiness, enthusiasm etc.

Try to speak at your comfortable normal voice pitch in a drone = apply the same, unchanging pitch on every syllable throughout an entire sentence. This is your Mid tone.

Now lower the pitch as low as you can without it becoming uncomfortable and feeling unnatural, constrict your larynx a little and say the same sentence, you have a sentence consisting of low tones.

The other three tones are more tricky. You can just about get away with raising the pitch to your highest comfortable voice range for the high tone, but it will not sound quite like a native Thai.

The high tone, the falling tone and the rising tone have pitch contours - a starting pitch and an ending pitch, and a curve in between. If you study these curves while listening to a tape recording or an actual native speaker uttering the tones, you will hopefully be able to see how they rise and fall.

That diagram shows the pitch of the Thai tones. It is simplified from a continuous speech point of view, and the high tone has at least two different realizations. Still, the diagram gives you an idea of the contrast.

The most important tool for you in learning tones will be to listen and try to repeat. Once you can hear the difference/contrast between the tones in a native speaker's speech, you can begin to emulate them. Test it on the Thais nearby.

[guardian]

Many a times while hailing a taxi, it's really a very daunting task when the driver does not understand you. Most of the time, they understand the destination immediately. Something places as short and simple as "Silom" really brings a puzzled look on the driver's face as the tone in which I say is a little bit different from the way it should actually be said.

[Casanundra]

It's not just about the tones, it's also about the average Thai language speaker not being bothered to put two and two together to make four.

If a non native of English tried to say (and they do) "Please Coffee, sugar, cup, milk two" then any native speaker with a hint of sense would get the gist and know that the person wanted two cups of coffee with milk and sugar.

Now try the same vocal and incorrect statement in Thai and you either get met with a blank stare or an Arai na even though a little bit of mental engagement from them would probably tell them using the surrounding words what it was exactly you wanted.

If only they would engage their brains and figure out what the context of the words mean then the Thai language learning experience for newbies would be a far more pleasant experience and would actually stimulate foreigners to try and learn the language more.

Although having said that even saying simple things like "come here" or "go right" can get you into trouble in Thai if you use the wrong tone or word... for example one of my friends told the taxi driver Leao Kwai instead of Leao kwar which almost had the taxi driver vaulting over the seat to get at him oops!

[In the Rai!]

It's not just about the tones, it's also about the average Thai language speaker not being bothered to put two and two together to make four.

If a non native of English tried to say (and they do) "Please Coffee, sugar, cup, milk two" then any native speaker with a hint of sense would get the gist and know that the person wanted two cups of coffee with milk and sugar.

Now try the same vocal and incorrect statement in Thai and you either get met with a blank stare or an Arai na even though a little bit of mental engagement from them would probably tell them using the surrounding words what it was exactly you wanted.

If only they would engage their brains and figure out what the context of the words mean then the Thai language learning experience for newbies would be a far more pleasant experience and would actually stimulate foreigners to try and learn the language more.

Although having said that even saying simple things like "come here" or "go right" can get you into trouble in Thai if you use the wrong tone or word... for example one of my friends told the taxi driver Leao Kwai instead of Leao kwar which almost had the taxi driver vaulting over the seat to get at him oops!

It is not a matter of them using their brains, its foreigners understanding that the wrong tone is a different word.

Your example of coffee, milk, sugar etc sure if said in a funny order will still get understood, that is because we dont have words that sound the same. Coffee granted could get mistaken for toffee but when someone hears milk etc, it can usually be worked out that someone wants coffee.

For Thais ma and maa are as different as dog and horse to us..

[meadish_sweetball]

It's not just about the tones, it's also about the average Thai language speaker not being bothered to put two and two together to make four.

If a non native of English tried to say (and they do) "Please Coffee, sugar, cup, milk two" then any native speaker with a hint of sense would get the gist and know that the person wanted two cups of coffee with milk and sugar.

Now try the same vocal and incorrect statement in Thai and you either get met with a blank stare or an Arai na even though a little bit of mental engagement from them would probably tell them using the surrounding words what it was exactly you wanted.

If only they would engage their brains and figure out what the context of the words mean then the Thai language learning experience for newbies would be a far more pleasant experience and would actually stimulate foreigners to try and learn the language more.

Although having said that even saying simple things like "come here" or "go right" can get you into trouble in Thai if you use the wrong tone or word... for example one of my friends told the taxi driver Leao Kwai instead of Leao kwar which almost had the taxi driver vaulting over the seat to get at him oops!

There is some truth to what you're saying, but a lot of foreigners do not understand how bad their own pronunciation is in the ears of a Thai. If you said the words กาแฟ น้ำตาล ถ้วย นม สอง in Thai with the right sounds and tones, I am pretty sure they might be able to figure it out. At least the second time you said it - there is that first adjustment before they realize you are trying to speak Thai and switch into 'listen for Thai' mode to consider as well.

In London, if you said to the barrista 'ploos caffae jugar hup miaow tea', chances are she'd give you the deer-in-headlights look as well.

The tones are just as important as the difference in meaning between putting h or c at the beginning of 'cup'.

Just as important as the difference between the 'ou' sound and the 'a' sound in sound / sand.

While some people just are not very good at understanding, there is also a limit as to how wrong you can say something and still be understood...

Further, most English people in service jobs have at least nine years of schooling behind them, whereas many Thai taxi drivers and waitresses have considerably less.

[midas]

I am not sure what methods you have tried so far for learning tones? You also don't say if you have tried in a formal setting with a teacher, or just at home by yourself?

The basic method I used was contrasting exercises, best achieved with a Thai native speaker or a foreigner who can do the tones perfectly.

These exercises force you to listen for tones, and they require you can write Thai down in a way that shows all distinguishing features with no ambiguities. We were taught the AUA and Haas phonetic transcriptions of Thai, which are both based on the International Phonetic Alphabet. When you write Thai with this system, all the sounds in a word can be properly represented.

Some examples of this system (Haas - but AUA works similarly, just that AUA has p t k for the silent finals where Haas has b d g, also, Haas uses y for อึ อื and j for ย whereas AUA has a 'u' with a line through it for อึ อื and uses 'y' for ย.) Both use double vowel to indicate long sound, and single vowel for short sound. The glottal stop, initial อ before vowel, and at the end of ะ vowels is indicated by a question mark without a dot below.

phìd = wrong

phíd = poison

pìd = close

mág = to have a habit of

màag = betel

mâag = much, many

Our teacher would say a syllable and we were to write it with this transcription system on the whiteboard. Any mistakes were corrected, and we would have to repeat the word after the teacher until we had it right.

Another part of tonal training would be in learning how to read Thai script. We were taught reading with the aid of the AUA books as well - they introduce consonants and vowels gradually, divided into groups based on their distinguishing features. That way, you learn the tone rules that apply to each consonant group. We would read out syllables from the book in Thai script, and our teacher would correct our pronunciation, including tones.

It should be said that we had two people in class who were pretty much unable to do tones. For one of them, an American man, the problem was that he could not shake the intonation patterns from his native language.

For example, when he tried to learn the numbers, he would count one to ten in the same way as you would in English, with rising intonation for each number until the last, where the intonation would fall.

Obviously this is incorrect for Thai because it messes up the tones on each syllable.

I was recommended when learning tones, that you need to first learn to void your speech of all feelings.

This is a good advice, since we express feelings with intonation in our native languages. Take note of the rise and fall of your voice when you express annoyance, pleading, happiness, enthusiasm etc.

Try to speak at your comfortable normal voice pitch in a drone = apply the same, unchanging pitch on every syllable throughout an entire sentence. This is your Mid tone.

Now lower the pitch as low as you can without it becoming uncomfortable and feeling unnatural, constrict your larynx a little and say the same sentence, you have a sentence consisting of low tones.

The other three tones are more tricky. You can just about get away with raising the pitch to your highest comfortable voice range for the high tone, but it will not sound quite like a native Thai.

The high tone, the falling tone and the rising tone have pitch contours - a starting pitch and an ending pitch, and a curve in between. If you study these curves while listening to a tape recording or an actual native speaker uttering the tones, you will hopefully be able to see how they rise and fall.

That diagram shows the pitch of the Thai tones. It is simplified from a continuous speech point of view, and the high tone has at least two different realizations. Still, the diagram gives you an idea of the contrast.

The most important tool for you in learning tones will be to listen and try to repeat. Once you can hear the difference/contrast between the tones in a native speaker's speech, you can begin to emulate them. Test it on the Thais nearby.

meadish, thanks for all lthat. What I was getting at is what is the best method of learning the different tones for words that sound similar ? For example this following statement :-

maai mai mai mai mai -

I haven't put the various tone indicators above each word but as you probably know

it means " New wood doesn't burn,does it ? ". It's bad enough trying to learn the various vocabulary

but then remembering which tone is attributable to so many similar words is what I find hard going and yet there a so many foreigners here seemed to have learned so effortlessly. I'm not completely dumb when it comes to languages -I can also speak Welsh fluently though its completely useless to me living abroad

There must be something wrong with my technique ? are you saying it's essential /preferable to learn to write and read Thai to be able to learn more quickly to be able to speak it ?

[midas]

It's not just about the tones, it's also about the average Thai language speaker not being bothered to put two and two together to make four.

If a non native of English tried to say (and they do) "Please Coffee, sugar, cup, milk two" then any native speaker with a hint of sense would get the gist and know that the person wanted two cups of coffee with milk and sugar.

Now try the same vocal and incorrect statement in Thai and you either get met with a blank stare or an Arai na even though a little bit of mental engagement from them would probably tell them using the surrounding words what it was exactly you wanted.

If only they would engage their brains and figure out what the context of the words mean then the Thai language learning experience for newbies would be a far more pleasant experience and would actually stimulate foreigners to try and learn the language more.

Although having said that even saying simple things like "come here" or "go right" can get you into trouble in Thai if you use the wrong tone or word... for example one of my friends told the taxi driver Leao Kwai instead of Leao kwar which almost had the taxi driver vaulting over the seat to get at him oops!

Yes I have noticed this, but rightly or wrongly I have attributed this to their method of learning in the schools in Thailand ? I was told they rely on " linear " teaching - is that right ??? whereas in the West we have been taught along the lines of the Socratic method -where we were asked at universitiesto answer questions. I have often wondered if this gives us a slight advantage in being able tothink " outside the box " more easily ??? Also whether this could be the reason why we get so many blank stares ??

[meadish_sweetball]

Preferable, yes. Not completely necessary, it is definitely possible to learn tones and to speak Thai reasonably well without touching the script. But it usually does take longer and is more impractical.

The advantage of knowing the script is that you can always ask for the spelling of a word when you are not sure of how it is supposed to sound. You can write it down yourself which makes it easier to remember, etc.

As you learn the letters in the script you will also learn to understand what features are important for meaning in the language, especially the features that are not important in English - aspirated vs. non-aspirated sounds, long vs. short vowel, tones, syllable beginnings and endings. Also all the sounds that DO exist, and through elimination, what sounds that do not exist, and which pronunciations that are simply not possible (such as many consecutive consonant sounds at the end of a word).

[grtaylor]

Two comments:

1 I think one reason that we are misunderstood is because the average Thai person doesn't think that we are capable of speaking Thai, and therefore starts from the wrong perspective of trying to hear English when listening to us initially. I found myself once desperately trying to understand what a Thai waitress was saying to me (assuming quite naturally that she was speaking Thai), failing completely to make any sense of it, only to realise that, in fact, she was speaking English, very badly. The problem was that my expectation was wrong.

2 Because of the restrictions of the Roman alphabet in spelling Thai words, we tend to think "this is the same word with a different tone". As far as the Thais are concerned they are completely different words, in many cases with VERY different spellings. Only a Thai who is trained to teach Thai to foreigners understands the "same word/different tone" concept. This is one reason learning to read is helpful to us, in learning to appreciate the real difference between similar sounding words.

Just my two satangs worth.

G