How Do Aussies Prove Their Income.

[bdenner]

I am considering moving from an “O” 12 month extension to a retirement “OA” extension. Right now I make sure I have the 400K up front on renewal but not sure I want to increase this to 800K as I earn a good investment return from these funds is Aust. Being a self funded retiree I will never be elegible for a pension so I made an enquiry to the Australian Embassy in BKK about getting some sort of income certification. This was their response:-

Dear Bxxxx

Thank you for your message regarding your Thai visa. The Embassy does not provide assistance for Australians to obtain Thai visas.

I recommend you check with Thai Immigration what they require and present them with evidence of your income to obtain the visa.

Regards

Robin Hamilton-Coates

First Secretary and Consul

Australian Embassy Bangkok

Phone: 66-2-3446453

Fax: 66-2-2874534

How do the retired Aussies on this forum get their income certification? Is an ATO tax return acceptable to the Thais? I expect not as I can’t make head nor tail of mine, that’s what accountants are for.

[Nawtilus]

The sound of that reply, you may have worded your request wrong.

I have never had to ask the Aus embassy to do this here, so not sure exactly what their policy is, but try to make it clear you just want your income proof of stamped and certified by them. also provide your tax return to help them verify it and any other relevant documents you have. Explain to them that it is a requirement of the immigration to have your embassy verify and stamp it....is it, I do not know this for sure but have read it....if you know where this is stated in the immigration website, copy it and provide the website for them to see for themselves also.

[Sunbelt Asia]

I am considering moving from an “O” 12 month extension to a retirement “OA” extension. Right now I make sure I have the 400K up front on renewal but not sure I want to increase this to 800K as I earn a good investment return from these funds is Aust. Being a self funded retiree I will never be elegible for a pension so I made an enquiry to the Australian Embassy in BKK about getting some sort of income certification. This was their response:-

Dear Bxxxx

Thank you for your message regarding your Thai visa. The Embassy does not provide assistance for Australians to obtain Thai visas.

I recommend you check with Thai Immigration what they require and present them with evidence of your income to obtain the visa.

Regards

Robin Hamilton-Coates

First Secretary and Consul

Australian Embassy Bangkok

Phone: 66-2-3446453

Fax: 66-2-2874534

How do the retired Aussies on this forum get their income certification? Is an ATO tax return acceptable to the Thais? I expect not as I can’t make head nor tail of mine, that’s what accountants are for.

Even though their official stance is they will not help. They have a standard government form you fill out in reference to income. They then stamp it with their seal.

www.sunbeltasiagroup.com

[Maestro]

Pdenner, perhaps the embassy got confused because you talked about a visa. It is in connection with your application of annual extension of stay, not with a visa, that you need this form from the embassy.

And you are not “moving to an OA extension”. You are changing the reason for you extension from “marriage to a Thai” to “retirement”

--

Maestro

Edited December 11, 2006 by maestro

[jackspratt]

I asked a similar question from the Embassy in October, and the (written) response was:

"Most people complete a statutory declaration, which we can then witness and stamp. It is up to you what you wish to declare in terms of your income."

Hope this helps.

jack

[bdenner]

I asked a similar question from the Embassy in October, and the (written) response was:

"Most people complete a statutory declaration, which we can then witness and stamp. It is up to you what you wish to declare in terms of your income."

Hope this helps.

jack

From what I’ve been told this appears to be very much like the way the Americans do it.

Thank you for all the responses.

[rocky]

I asked a similar question from the Embassy in October, and the (written) response was:

"Most people complete a statutory declaration, which we can then witness and stamp. It is up to you what you wish to declare in terms of your income."

Hope this helps.

jack

This is a good situation, you declare they only witness, it means it can be done quicker and forms can declare what is needed. If you were waiting for the embassy to get in touch with a pension company , it could take 6 months, this way, print a statement off your computer and get signed.

Read between the lines

FANTASTIC.

[Krub]

I asked a similar question from the Embassy in October, and the (written) response was:

"Most people complete a statutory declaration, which we can then witness and stamp. It is up to you what you wish to declare in terms of your income."

Hope this helps.

jack

This is a good situation, you declare they only witness, it means it can be done quicker and forms can declare what is needed. If you were waiting for the embassy to get in touch with a pension company , it could take 6 months, this way, print a statement off your computer and get signed.

Read between the lines

FANTASTIC.

Great indeed making immigration wary of the validity of such letters and starting to ask for the original evidence together with the letter from the Embassy

[Tung_Thaid]

I asked a similar question from the Embassy in October, and the (written) response was:

"Most people complete a statutory declaration, which we can then witness and stamp. It is up to you what you wish to declare in terms of your income."

Hope this helps.

jack

The Australian Embassy will provide you with a blank Statutory Declaration form for you to complete in their office. You choose the wording - detailing the amount of your pension / income. It is your responsibility to be able to provide supporting paperwork if asked by Thai Immigration to back up the "Embassy" letter figures. As of May 2006, this was the Statutory Declaration form being provided by the Australian Embassy / Bangkok. Aust_Embassy_Bangkok_Stat_Dec.pdf

[thedi]

I am from Switzerland, not Australia.

13 years ago, when I married here in Thailand, I had the same kind of problems with the Swiss embassy. They gave me the same kind of short, nagative answers.

Thanks to the help of a friend which himself works in the Swiss gouvernment, I found out what I had to do.

All that was needed from the embassy was the certification of my signature on a document. They didn't want to, but they did it when I insisted, adding a red stamp something like

'Only the signature, not the content of this document is certified by the embassy'

With this document, everything went smoothly. Maybe your position is similar. At least worth a try.

Regards and good luck

//edit to remove email//

Edited December 14, 2006 by lopburi3

[drfang]

Dear all, I am reviving this rather old thread in case any Australians have had to do this recently. My situation is similar to the OP. I have sufficent income, entirely derived from share to meet the monthly requirement .

I dont want to transfer 800,000 in cash to Thailand, but may consider half that amount.

I have no way of proving this income, exept for some very pretty PDF s from my stockbroker, full of Pie graphs, and they show the expected Annual Income from the share holdings. I also have the bank statements, which show deposits from divident payments. The payments are irregular, and occour about 4 times a year, so there is no neat display of a monthly income such as a pension recepient would be able to show.

I am currently on a " permission to stay based on Education" which does not finish till January 2011. Unfortuanately for me and another 300+ poor souls in Chaing Mai, I am a victim of the CMU Ed visa scandal. I have a gut feeling that at the end of October we will all have our Visas, or Permissions to stay revoked. There is a very long thread in this forum for those interested. Thus, it seems prudent to find explore another avenue to stay in Thailand. If any Australians or others have information on what would satisfy CM Immigration i will be gratefull for the Information.

Regards Dr F.

[ProThaiExpat]

As an American receiving his US pension through the OZ government central bank, I went through the process for the "Embassy Letter" as before when my pension and income was USD based. I merely crossed out the reference to US dollars in two places and inserted AUD. The girl at the intake window questioned that I could do this as did the Consulate Officer who took my oath. The changes to the standard US Consulate form were not even mentioned by the Immigration Official who processed by paperwork. I don't know what conversion rate he used to determine my eligibility however since the AUD is approaching par with the USD, it may not have made any difference which he used.

I have wondered for years why the Thai Immigration people are so trusting since no proof of income has ever been reported on Thaivisa as far as I know.

A caution for Americans is that a oatj sworn before a US Government Officer carries a 10 year jail term and a 10K USD fine if it ever goes that far. I rationalized from this information that the Thai Immigration felt those penalties were sufficient to get the truth from Americans about their income stream.

From what is posted so far, a mere statement without an oath, may not carry any penalties of perjury and if the Australian Embassy merely notarizes your statement, rather than require an oath, my guess is there are no penalties Thai Immigration could rely on unless there are Thai Law penalties for providing incorrect information to the police!!! I wouldn't be surprised if there are and the Thai Immigration Police may well be relying on their own law or basic human honesty to make the "pension letters" reflect the truth.

In any case, I would go ahead and get the OZ form mentioned above, merely fill it out and get the Embassy to stamp anything they will on the form, chances area as long as it looks official, it will probably fly, especially if the Embassy logo is at the top. Good luck.

[drfang]

As an American receiving his US pension through the OZ government central bank, I went through the process for the "Embassy Letter" as before when my pension and income was USD based. I merely crossed out the reference to US dollars in two places and inserted AUD. The girl at the intake window questioned that I could do this as did the Consulate Officer who took my oath. The changes to the standard US Consulate form were not even mentioned by the Immigration Official who processed by paperwork. I don't know what conversion rate he used to determine my eligibility however since the AUD is approaching par with the USD, it may not have made any difference which he used.

I have wondered for years why the Thai Immigration people are so trusting since no proof of income has ever been reported on Thaivisa as far as I know.

A caution for Americans is that a oatj sworn before a US Government Officer carries a 10 year jail term and a 10K USD fine if it ever goes that far. I rationalized from this information that the Thai Immigration felt those penalties were sufficient to get the truth from Americans about their income stream.

From what is posted so far, a mere statement without an oath, may not carry any penalties of perjury and if the Australian Embassy merely notarizes your statement, rather than require an oath, my guess is there are no penalties Thai Immigration could rely on unless there are Thai Law penalties for providing incorrect information to the police!!! I wouldn't be surprised if there are and the Thai Immigration Police may well be relying on their own law or basic human honesty to make the "pension letters" reflect the truth.

In any case, I would go ahead and get the OZ form mentioned above, merely fill it out and get the Embassy to stamp anything they will on the form, chances area as long as it looks official, it will probably fly, especially if the Embassy logo is at the top. Good luck.

Thanks for the reply, fortunately i do not have to perjure myself, as I have sufficient income . Its more about presenting proof in a way which will satisfy CM Immigration. I will see if the AU Honary consul here in CM can witness my signiture on the Stat Dec, save a trip to BKK. What wording did you use on your Stat Dec?

Regards

Dr F

[neverdie]

From what is posted so far, a mere statement without an oath, may not carry any penalties of perjury and if the Australian Embassy merely notarizes your statement, rather than require an oath,

When you make a Statutory Declaration at the Australian Embassy the following applies:-

I understand that a person who intentionally makes a false statement in a statutory declaration is guilty of an offence under section 11 of the Statutory Declarations Act 1959, and I believe that the statements in this declaration are true in every particular.

Edited October 2, 2010 by neverdie

[drfang]

From what is posted so far, a mere statement without an oath, may not carry any penalties of perjury and if the Australian Embassy merely notarizes your statement, rather than require an oath,

When you make a Statutory Declaration at the Australian Embassy the following applies:-

I understand that a person who intentionally makes a false statement in a statutory declaration is guilty of an offence under section 11 of the Statutory Declarations Act 1959, and I believe that the statements in this declaration are true in every particular.

I recall my Boy Scout oath, " I will honour my Queen, my Country, my parents, and will not tell fibs" Something like that, and, for good measure " I am not, nor have i ever been ,a member of the Communist Party.

Hmm, must be time for bed.

Dr F

[Maestro]

I have no way of proving this income, exept for some very pretty PDF s from my stockbroker, full of Pie graphs, and they show the expected Annual Income from the share holdings. I also have the bank statements, which show deposits from divident payments. The payments are irregular, and occour about 4 times a year, so there is no neat display of a monthly income such as a pension recepient would be able to show...

Chances that the immigration officer will ask you for documents to support the income shown in the statuary declaration are very small.

Forget about expected income. Make a table totting up the income over the past 12 months and take it with you, together with the supporting documents such as your bank's credit advices for dividend and interest payments, so that you can show it if requested by the immigration officer.

[jazzbo]

One way to show a neat monthly income is to have 2 bank accounts: All your earned funds go into the first account and then make monthly transfers of the 65K baht equivalent into the second account...

[Maestro]

Evidence of a deposit or incoming remittance in your bank account is not proof of income, ie earnings.

If and when immigration does ask for supporting documents for the income shown in the embassy letter, this does not have to be the required minimum amount for every month. An average monthly income corresponding to the required monthly amount is acceptable, ie a total over the past 12 months equalling not less that 12 times the required monthly amount.

[ProThaiExpat]

Maestro: I tremble to take issue with anything you post as you are so often "spot on" with your valuable posts, however, the following does deserve a little quibble if I understand the words correctly:

"Evidence of a deposit or incoming remittance in your bank account is not proof of income, ie earnings."

Speaking only of my Aussie bank as I can't remember details from my US Bank, my pension deposit by the Central Bank of Australia is clearly marked in my online account detail and I am sure in my online monthly "statement", the source of the deposit. Likewise my interest income is listed as to its source, ie. "interest income" by each CD generating that income on a monthly basis.

My conclusion, this is good evidence to carry the burden of proof in almost any court in the world. I suspect you meant something else?

[ProThaiExpat]

Maestro: PS my last, more quibble. You use the word "earnings" is such a way as to give me the impression that you believe "earnings" are required to satisfy the requirement for monthly minimums. I have looked long and hard to determine what Immigration requires and whether I am making a truthful statement when I swear at the American Consulate regarding my "monthly income stream". I would guess that Thai Immigrations cares not whether your monthly income stream consists of "earnings" which usually means work related income or investment income, or certainly pension income.

[jazzbo]

This piece of information is provided with no reference or attribution: "Evidence of a deposit or incoming remittance in your bank account is not proof of income, ie earnings."

This is the written opinion I received form the Thai Ministry of Immigration:

In case of having monthly income. The Applicant must provide evidence of a monthly income with a minimum of 65,000 Thai Baht ... Income could be pension, interest, investment payoff, etc.

[ProThaiExpat]

Thanks jazzbo, the response from the Immigration Bureau is certainly clear. Your first statement without attribution may also be correct if one interprets it to mean a mere entry into a bank account without further information from the bank as to the source of that deposit and the nature of its origin certainly would not be enough.

I do recall posts years ago where members obtained actual wire transfer transaction documents to prove source of funds to immigration. I know when I obtained my first non-immO in BKK ten years ago, they wanted proof that the funds in the Thai bank came from overseas and as to the sender of the funds, so I had to get an actual wire transaction report and cover letter from my bank. I suspect this would not be proof enough unless the originating entity of the wire transfer indicated the nature of the wired funds, ie. pension, interest, etc.

Thank our lucky stars immigration accepts Embassy declarations, oaths or whatever.

[jazzbo]

Gents -- The statement I made at #17 was just my personal opinion and (thankfully) has never been put to the test ... It is, however, my interpretation of the written opinion I received as provided at post #21...

One day I went into an IMM office for my 90 day report; I demanded in reasonable Thai what, if any, additional documents I may be required to provide for Extension of Visa based upon Retirement -- 65K per month variety -- in addition to a brand spanking new embossed Income Affidavit from the US Embassy in Bangkok, Thailand... I said I do not want to be told today that I need 'A' and when I come back next month to be told that in addition to 'A' I also need 'B' ... I said I want to know right now and I want it in writing and I want it provided with your official office seal.

So that is why I have the statement as provided above.

[Maestro]

Maestro: PS my last, more quibble. You use the word "earnings" is such a way as to give me the impression that you believe "earnings" are required to satisfy the requirement for monthly minimums. I have looked long and hard to determine what Immigration requires and whether I am making a truthful statement when I swear at the American Consulate regarding my "monthly income stream". I would guess that Thai Immigrations cares not whether your monthly income stream consists of "earnings" which usually means work related income or investment income, or certainly pension income.

Your interpretation is correct: the income referred to in the immigration rules can be income from any source whatsoever.

jazzbo wrote:

One way to show a neat monthly income is to have 2 bank accounts: All your earned funds go into the first account and then make monthly transfers of the 65K baht equivalent into the second account...

I replied:

Evidence of a deposit or incoming remittance in your bank account is not proof of income, ie earnings...

A rose is a flower, but not all flowers are roses. Depending on how it is worded a deposit entry in a bank statement can be proof of income, but not all deposit entries are proof of income. jassboz's remittances from his account A to his account B are proof of money coming into his account B but they are not proof of income.

This deposit entry is proof of income. In fact, the beneficiary received no other written information regarding this dividend payment:

This deposit entry resulting from a remittance made from another account owned by the beneficiary is not proof of income:

[jazzbo]

(Jazzbo's) remittances from his account A to his account B are proof of money coming into his account B but they are not proof of income.

As in the wording of the document provided to me by Immigration (above) those deposits could evidence income from interest or personal investments. At any rate, they are sufficient proof of income if on any given day an IMM Officer who requests such documents agrees that such deposits into an account are in fact sufficient proof ... and IMM is therefore acceding that there may be no other way to evidence such income... to assume de facto that such evidence would be dis-allowed is only conjecture.

At any rate, in the document from Immigration that I reference above, the word used is 'evidence; not 'proof'.

In 1964, US Supreme Court Associate Justice Potter Stewart famously tried to explain "hard-core" pornography, or what is obscene, by saying, "I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced . . . but I know it when I see it . . . "

Jacobellis v. Ohio, 378 U.S. 184, 197 (1964)

Edited October 3, 2010 by jazzbo

[Maestro]

...At any rate, they are sufficient proof of income if on any given day an IMM Officer who requests such documents agrees that such deposits into an account are in fact sufficient proof ...

It is evidently within the discretion of the immigration officer to decide what evidence he will accept as satisfactory evidence of income for the purpose of approving an application for extension of stay.

...At any rate, in the document from Immigration that I reference above, the word used is 'evidence; not 'proof'.

The use of "evidence" in the information leaflet you were given is in line with the text of the English translation of the extension rules currently published on on the website of the Immigration Bureau. Although in this context many ThaiVisa members use "evidence" and "proof" interchangeably and many dictionaries and thesauruses list them as synonyms, in both accounting and legal parlance they evidently do not have identical meanings, but as said this is beside the point because evidently the discretionary decision of the immigration officer is all that matters, and extremely rare are members' reports of cases where an officer chose to request such evidence.

[jazzbo]

So if one can establish a monthly income as I described, if may not be irrefutable proof, but it may be compelling evidence and certainly better than going into the IMM Office with no corroborating info as to the information contained on your Embassy Income Affidavit.