Pronunciation

[tallen1966]

I have trouble pronunciating words that begin with dt and especially with ng. Stringing two consonants together like this at the beginning of a word seems impossible for me. Any suggestions. Thanks.

[sutnyod]

for the dt-problem: try to work on your d and make it sound very soft. Work on your t and make it sound very harsh. Don't do anything about the dt; most Westerners pronounce either their ds or their ts that way.

About the ng I am helpless. A friend of mine, very fluent in Thai, still has problems after more than a decade.

[Rikker]

There aren't actually two consonants to pronounce--that's just one of the shortcomings of writing transliterating Thai with Roman characters. It's one sound.

The "ng" is just like the sound at the end of "sing" in English. If you notice, it doesn't sound like "n" + "g", rather it's a separate sound that we use "ng" to represent. As you may notice, it's common in English in the middle or at the end of words, but Thai adds the trick of putting it at the beginning of words. You can practice by saying "singer" and then try dividing it into two "words": si-nger, so that the "ng" part is at the start of the second syllable. Then keep saying it, trying to add some space between the syllables: si...nger si........nger. Keep practicing until you can say just the second syllable by itself, "nger" ... that "ng" sound at the beginning is the sound you're looking for.

Likewise, what is sometimes written "dt" can also be written "t" in other transliteration schemes. It represents a sound similar to a regular "t" as in "tee" but without the puffing of air. Say the word "stop" and notice how the "t" in this case doesn't have as much of a puff of air as when you say "top." When you see "dt" in a Thai word, you're trying to make a "t" sound without the puff of air. Your tongue should go right behind your front teeth.

Hope that helps some. Let's hear what others have to say by way of advice.

Edited December 11, 2006 by Rikker

[Richard W]

I have trouble pronunciating words that begin with dt and especially with ng. Stringing two consonants together like this at the beginning of a word seems impossible for me.

They're single cosonants. The 'dt' of some transcriptions is the sound of the 't' English 'sty' and of the 'd' of Chinese "Deng Xiaoping", whose name some of us remember seeing as "Teng Hsiao-ping" (strictly "Teng Hsiao-p'ing").

I can't actually thing of a language with an initial /dt/ combination. 'Ng' as an initial pair of consonants is quite common in and around New Guinea, but is rated about as difficult as 'sk'. In Europe, I think it also occurs in Albanian.

However, the 'ng' of Thai is a single consonant. A few native English speakers can speak it quite easily - they are the ones who pronounce 'singer' without a 'g' sound (this is quite common, but not universal) and divide it into syllables as si-nger (this is quite rare). Be warned, though, that the unitary 'ng' sound of English is much further forward than the 'ng' of Thai.

[Rikker]

Be warned, though, that the unitary 'ng' sound of English is much further forward than the 'ng' of Thai.

True enough. Equating Thai to sounds in English will not yield many perfect matches. But it should be enough to get you on the right track.

If for you "singer" rhymes with "finger" (for me it does not), then you're in a bit more trouble. Richard, are there any English words in your dialect that could help one produce a syllable-initial ง ala "singer" in my dialect?

[Richard W]

If for you "singer" rhymes with "finger" (for me it does not), then you're in a bit more trouble. Richard, are there any English words in your dialect that could help one produce a syllable-initial ง ala "singer" in my dialect?

"Singer" is the best there is in my dialect, and it is very difficult to make the syllable division si-nger rather than sing-er. You're just as well off trying to work from the relationship b:m::n::g:ng. The latter also gives you a backer 'ng'.

The lack of a decent example is why the 'heng' phoneme was suggested for English - there is no contrast between /h/ and /ng/ in standard English, if you allow the location of syllable boundaries as conditioning factor. The ideas of them being the same phoneme always struck me as ridiculous - until I learnt that near Songkhla the contrast between หง and ห had been lost. Then I discovered examples where /ng/ and the glottal stop had merged - the most prominent is Mandarin Chinese.

Richard.

[PhilHarries]

On the AUA course I took we covered the 'ng' sound by going through a routine repeating the words 'coming on' over and over gradually separating into 'comi...ngon" through, as I remember it to "comi....ng....on". It worked for me to the astonishment of many Thais I spoke to. Pity the rest of the course didn't go so well.

[Johpa]

On the AUA course I took we covered the 'ng' sound by going through a routine repeating the words 'coming on' over and over gradually separating into 'comi...ngon" through, as I remember it to "comi....ng....on". It worked for me to the astonishment of many Thais I spoke to. Pity the rest of the course didn't go so well.

My Thai professor in college just let us choke on the /ng/ intial consonant for the entire first year, but we all sort of got it with enough practice. Another good phonetic gymnastic feat for native English speakers is to try to get a Welsh double L /ll/ (back L) as a syllable initial consonant. Again it it a common syllable final consonant in English, so with some effort you can say "Lloyd" correctly.

[PeaceBlondie]

If I'm not off topic, the Thai teachers of English (middle aged ajarns) said 'singer' and 'single' the same. I thought they asked me if I was a singer, so I replied without joking, "No, but my ex wife is." The Vietnamese have problems with that, too. I once walked into a shop with my Vietnamese boyfriend, who was a singer. The Vietnamese clerk said in broken English to him, "You are a songer!" My best friend, from Shanghai, still doesn't think a Vietnamese family name can simply be Ng.

I was trying to teach the '-ing' word ending to my matayom students once, and my fellow Thai teacher wrote some Thai letter on the board, as if it were equivalent. Was she probably wrong?

[meadish_sweetball]

The lack of a decent example is why the 'heng' phoneme was suggested for English - there is no contrast between /h/ and /ng/ in standard English, if you allow the location of syllable boundaries as conditioning factor. The ideas of them being the same phoneme always struck me as ridiculous - until I learnt that near Songkhla the contrast between หง and ห had been lost. Then I discovered examples where /ng/ and the glottal stop had merged - the most prominent is Mandarin Chinese.

Some Southern Thai variations have ฮาน 'haan' for งาน 'ngaan' in ทำงาน too. The first time I heard this was on Koh Phangan. Not entirely sure whether the person saying it was from the island or another part of Southern Thailand though.

Edited December 12, 2006 by meadish_sweetball

[Rikker]

If I'm not off topic, the Thai teachers of English (middle aged ajarns) said 'singer' and 'single' the same.

When Thais who aren't able to hold a conversation in English attempt to teach it (which is the case for Thai nationality English teachers in the vast majority of public schools, I think), from my experience they frequently associate one pronunciation with one spelling*, and so -ng- in the middle of words tends to get pronounced -งก-. I have a friend who worked for Singer corporation (you know, sewing machines and whatnot), which in Thai is written ซิงเกอร์ /sing-ger/, even though ซิงเงอร์ /sing-nger/ is perfectly possible and matches my pronunciation better. Perhaps I'm the one who's been saying it wrong, though. Dunno.

As for the final sound of singer and single, that's more of a credit to their pronunciation, if they at least know enough not to pronounce "single" as "sing-gun", but yes, it can be confusing!

*(BTW, to stray further off topic... Another example of this is -ew being taught as -ิว, It works for few (ฟิว), and some English accents say dew like ดิว (although for me it's ดู--the soft drink Mountain Dew is written something like เมาเทนดิว the few times I've seen it on sale), but you definitely run into problems when you extrapolate sew to ซิว, meaning the action you do with needle and thread. And if you arrived by air you wouldn't want to say you ฟลิว. )

Edited December 12, 2006 by Rikker

[Richard W]

Another good phonetic gymnastic feat for native English speakers is to try to get a Welsh double L /ll/ (back L) as a syllable initial consonant. Again it it a common syllable final consonant in English, so with some effort you can say "Lloyd" correctly.

Welsh 'll' is a voiceless lateral fricative - place names like Pistyll are bad enough even if you're aiming for nothing better than a South Walian accent.

[tgeezer]

I have trouble pronunciating words that begin with dt and especially with ng. Stringing two consonants together like this at the beginning of a word seems impossible for me. Any suggestions. Thanks.

The AUA taught "ng" as in coming home, as in all English the words are blended, so keep trying until you can drop the comi part in front and the ome part at the end and you get a perfect "ngo" nguu. "d" is "d" you will notice that the tongue is behind the gum, bring the tongue forward to the back of the teeth and you get "dt" then practice with a Thai.