Complicated life! Thai girlfriend twice denied UK visa, now married, next step?

[MarkGB]

This may be a little complicated, but thank you for reading.

 

My then girlfriend but now wife (from Thailand) was turned down for two UK tourist visas in August and November last year, but family considerations back home mean I have to continually fly back from Thailand to Europe (due to an ill father in Wales and 11-year old son studying in Paris who has no other child care/support when my ex-wife is working in the school holidays). 

At present, I fly back to London every 6-8 weeks and go to the madhouse that is the Thai embassy to obtain another single entry visa (the Thai Embassy tells me I need £5,000 in my account for a multiple entry visa and I have too many monthly outgoings for that to be the case).

In the short-term, a tourist visa for my wife (we married in December – in an Amphur Office) or anything that would allow my wife to spend some time with my family and I in the UK (even a month) would be extremely helpful and less costly than the current arrangement.

I have the money and home to support her in London (which I have proven 100% on both tourist visas – with no objections), but the visas were turned down for the following reasons.

1 She has no job in Thailand (I rent an apartment for us in Bangkok - six-month contract, at present - while her dad has a successful business and large home). She has a qualification in marketing, but has lived with me in Thailand while we've been a couple.

2 She has ‘no reason to ever return to Thailand’ because her son from a previous relationship some years ago lives with his Thai father (she currently talks to her son on the phone most days).

3 On the first visa application, a Thai person from the UK embassy called her and asked if she had ever worked in Pattaya. It was 8am and her initial response was “No, Jomtien”, before correcting herself and that was taken as lying and the hiding of something sinister. She worked on the reception of a hotel in the Arab part of Pattaya en route to Jomtien rather than the centre. Regardless, hardly a crime. The second visa application used this as a major reason for refusal.

My wife and I have been a couple since March 2015 (met in Hong Kong) provable by photos, travel, hotel receipts etc and I have visited Thailand 11 times since. We were previously friends online for a couple of years (October 2012), but the Thai people in the UK embassy have at times intentionally or unintentionally assumed that as being the start of a full relationship despite lucid assurances that was not the case.

Both applications were through supposedly ‘reliable’ and personally recommended visa companies, but next time I will apply myself as was my original intention.

Any advice? I’m just trying to balance a complicated life and not looking to pull off the scam of the century.

Thank you for taking a look. Any guidance would be much appreciated.

[Jeddah Jo]

If you applied when not married then I think generally they want proof the relationship has lasted at least two years. They also I believe like to see some foreign travel experience.

[7by7]

I'm afraid that all the reasons for her not returning to Thailand, or at least leaving the UK, after her visit when she was your girlfriend still apply now that she is your wife. Maybe even more so.

 

She has no solid reason to return; doesn't own property, doesn't have a job. Family are not usually considered to be such, many Thais live and work abroad and send money home to their family. Not even her son; he does not live with her and she can just as easily communicate with him by phone from the UK as she can from Thailand.

 

This may not matter if you had a residency visa of some sort to live in Thailand; the assumption in such cases is often that if the sponsor returns, so will the applicant. But you don't.

 

So I am at a loss as to how to advise you; but may be able to be more constructive were you to post her last refusal notice; first removing all names and other identifying information.

[7by7]

1 hour ago, Jeddah Jo said:

If you applied when not married then I think generally they want proof the relationship has lasted at least two years.

Not for a visit visa; only for settlement as unmarried partners.

 

1 hour ago, Jeddah Jo said:

They also I believe like to see some foreign travel experience.

Can help if the applicant has visited other countries and complied with the conditions of their visa: but not essential.

[paully]

I'm sure 7by7 is right, Mark, you just have to address the issues raised in the last refusal notice in her next application, in particular explaining the confusion about Pattaya/Jomtien (and, as you say, don't use an agency for this), and make the application as positive and truthful as possible.  Good luck.

[bobrussell]

If you have future plans such as applying for a settlement visa to the UK or you living in Thailand then use this to provide a bigger picture may help.

An ECO has to work on the balance of probabilities that the applicant will return.

Some have included a statement along the lines that she will return within the conditions of the visa in order not to jeopardise a future settlement application.

Visas are not refused based on previous application refusals. Generally refused because the original grounds have not been adequately covered in subsequent applications.

As suggested above it may be worth posting a picture of the refusal notice after removing anything that identifies the applicant. There are not many refusals we have not seen before!

Edited February 10, 2017 by bobrussell
poor English!

[MarkGB]

Thank you very much for the appreciated replies. It seems to be as I suspected... a long road ahead! Attached is the latest refusal letter, but it's inaccurate in a few ways and felt like a skimmed, rubber-stamped 'no'. I have always said I will pay for all costs (full bank statements, pay slips, home ownership in London etc proved this is possible) but for some strange reason that become 'some' in the second refusal. Also 'a number of discrepancies' on employment was really one Jomtien and not Pattaya in the phone call on the first visa 'no' (there was no call for the second visa though she waited by the phone every morning). She has had a job in two family markets and for a trading company that went bust, but since I came to be with her has stayed with me, outside of working in the market with her dad.

 

We were friends from late 2012, but again postmarked envelopes from the UK when we were not a couple were ignored. A relationship was only claimed since March 2015 as before we were casual friends. There seems to be a bemusing assumption of criminality or wrong-doing which would mean (A) I was faking 100s of photographs and spending thousands of pounds in travel before I initiate my evil masterplan or (B) she is planning to channel her inner Usain Bolt and sprint out of Heathrow Airport to pluck £50 notes off an English money tree. Essentially, they only want Thai people from wealthy families to travel? It does feel a bit prejudiced. She can, of course, get a job, but how many (non market) employers allow staff to visit England for weeks/months? 

[CBR600f]

markgb as stated you must correct the reasons in your first 2 refusals... I was in the same boat as you a couple of years ago and failed also for 2 visit visas... but now have my wife with me in the uk... first thing is apply for a month visit and not a 3 month one as that will not work I tried it and failed ..

[bobrussell]

'There still appears to be some confusion regarding my employment. I apologise if I appeared vague and confused but it was my intention at all times to be accurate.

My employment history was ...............'

 

The rest is fairly neutral waffle. Many partners/spouses are supported by their partners and do not have or need employment. The applicant cannot be penalised on these grounds alone.

 

The issue appears to be credibility so it is essential that the information is factually correct and the applicant is thoroughly aware of what is in the application.

Edited February 10, 2017 by bobrussell
Added to post

[ronaldo0]

Welcome to my world !!

I applied first time and the only reason they turned my wife down was she only provided 3 months bank statements not the 6 they asked for. Despite the fact I was paying for everything and owned my uk house outright and had supporting bank statements to prove I could afford it.

That was a slight disappointment so left it for about 4 years before applying again as no great hurry to go to UK.

Second time filled everything out and she took it to the office and spoke with woman for around 15 minutes.

Then got the reply letter with the biggest pile of s**t I have ever read in it !!

They said they did not think we were married despite us being married for 8 years and providing letters from people who came from uk to our wedding and photos off us on holiday and at our house together.

They said she did not have the funds for a return flight !! She had over 1.2m in her bank for over a year !!

They said they thought she wouldn't come back. Despite her giving proof she owned a new car paid for and 2 properties valued at 25m bht in her name.

The last thing they said was there was no proof off my visa information. I had given them this as I printed it off and signed it and she had given them my passport also !!

I appealed and the appeal was sent to Vietnam to be decided !! Email then sent saying try again to me !!

Then last year my friend married a woman with no assets money nothing and used a visa company. 3 days after handing it in she was given a 6 month visa for the UK.

Then a friend of the guys wife who also had nothing , not even a job . Was asked to go to the Uk for a holiday by a guy she knew from working in a bar before. She was given the money by him to go pay to apply. Week later she got one too !!

Guess if you want it for certain pay a company to make sure the office stamps it !!

Maybe mine was the Monday morning pile where they just pick up one lot and say denied to all off them without looking !!

[janejira]

Do you have any ties to Thailand that she could present to the embassy? 

 

When my husband asked for a US tourist visa, he showed the officer my passport and a letter from my workplace confirming my employment. He basically showed the officer that I would return to Thailand so he had no reason to stay in the US.

 

[ThaiVisaExpress]

It's clear that the ECO is concerned with her lack of reasons to return to Thailand after any visit to the UK.  But, as others have said, the decision must be made on the balance pf probabilities.  The ECO may be concerned about her background.  You say that you met in Hong Kong ?  What was she doing there ?  Did you give any explanation  in the applications ?

 

I'm interested in what you say about the telephone call to your wife.  Why did the interviewer ask her if she had ever worked in Pattaya ?  That seems a strange question to ask out of the blue.  There is one interviewer at the Embassy who can be a little aggressive in his questioning. Possibly it was him.  If you would like us to find out what exactly happened in the telephone interview, and what was asked, then we can possibly do so ?

 

 

[nongsangcity]

why not apply for a visa to live with you in england....if you are husband and wife  dont be applying for 6 months visas.....my Thia partner was also turned down twice trying for 6 mths visas...we we got married we applied again for stelement visa and it was 3rd time lucky.....good luck...nothing is easy these days mind you saying that my wifes first refusal was back in 2004...

[humqdpf]

You and your wife need to decide where you both want to live - UK/Europe or SE Asia.

 

If you want to make UK/Europe your home base, most of the good advice has already been given, especially the "get a few stamps from other countries into both of your passports" idea - great if you could have one for Schlengen - bring her to visit your son in Paris, for instance. Also, you need to do more research and pay for expertise - that means get a good quality immigration lawyer on your side and at her side if possible during the interview (if they want to know why you want a lawyer present, use the phrase, "to preserve the veracity of the interview content."). But the big problem is that your lady has no ties in Thailand and so no official is going to agree to give her a visa. She needs a job and an employer who is prepared to state in writing that she is required back at her place of work within X number of weeks. It would also help if she had a car in her name. Even better if she had a condo or some property in her name. It all adds to the boxes that are ticked.

 

If you want to make SE Asia your home base - I say SE Asia as I get the impression that you are having visa troubles re Thailand for some reason. If this is so, you might want to consider basing yourselves in a neighbouring country - Cambodia is easiest where you just buy the one or two year visa at the airport - no questions. Laos might be more suitable for your wife especially if she is from Issan and if Vientiane you are very quickly in Thailand. There are a few hoops for the visa but at least you can get a one month visa on arrival and extend it in country for 30 days in addition and there does not seem to be any limit on that.

[thaiguzzi]

Yep, luck of the draw sometimes. And if one of the office staff got out of wrong side of the bed in the morning. Bad hair day etc etc.

I've known my missus 17 years. Lived with her for 13 odd here. Married her nearly 12 years ago. Mother of my only son, now aged 11. All of us have my sir name. Been to England with me two times previous on holiday, 4-6 weeks at a time on a 6 month tourist visa. 2 years ago got refused for a 3rd holiday for some ridiculous pedantic excuse. All paperwork correct. Appealed, and luckily we managed to all have our 4 week family holiday in the UK.

Sometimes smooth sailing, sometimes a nightmare.

Still pi$$es me off, my son and i have  full Anglo Saxon first and last names, my wife, the mother of my only son has the same Anglo Saxon sir name, mother of a UK citizen, married to a UK citizen for more than a decade, has to go through such a rigmarole and jump through a bunch of hoops for just a simple holiday.

[English Engineer]

Reading your text I am confused are you seeking a settlement visa or a tourist visa for the UK?

 

A tourist visa application requires 2 main conditions to be met:

 

Your wife will return after the vacation.

She has adequate funds to finance the vacation or suitable sponsership.

 

The application should simply state she is going to the uk for a vacation. A detailed program listing places to be visited is helpful.

Your problem is making the case for her need to return to Thailand. Based on your comments she has none. 

 

Regarding the settlement visa the main requirement is that your salary is greater than 18600 pounds per annum. You already say you have a home.

 

The decisions are made by following guidelines. Nothing complicated ideally the application is kept simple and concise.

 

 

[7by7]

5 hours ago, ronaldo0 said:

Guess if you want it for certain pay a company to make sure the office stamps it !!

Complete and utter rubbish. No visa company can guarantee a visa; those who say they can are liars.

[7by7]

MarkGB, on the face of it, the refusal seems reasonable; discrepancies in some areas of the application, no real reason to return to Thailand.

 

Whether this is due to a poorly prepared application or errors by the ECO, I can't say.

 

I'd take up ThaiVisaExpress's offer were I you.

[English Engineer]

Giving further thought. If her father is running a successful business then she can be an employee. You would need a letterheaded document stating she is an employee. Letter should state a position and ficticious salary and that she is granted 1 month leave to visit her husband. She is required to return to Thailand after her 1 month vacation to resume her duties.

 

The application should be completely clear this is only a vacation. A program of activities for her stay makes the tourist application plausible. Some people even book hotels which can be cancelled at a later date.

 

In the case of a settlement visa the English language test is tequired together with the annual salary of 18600 pounds. Salary declared by a tax return.

 

Keep any application brief and only include applicable information.

[7by7]

39 minutes ago, English Engineer said:

Giving further thought. If her father is running a successful business then she can be an employee. You would need a letterheaded document stating she is an employee. Letter should state a position and ficticious salary and that she is granted 1 month leave to visit her husband. She is required to return to Thailand after her 1 month vacation to resume her duties

 Obtaining a visa by deception; you mean!

 

In her previous applications she said she did not work; now she is suddenly employed by her father!

 

Don't you think the ECO may find that a bit odd and so want to investigate further?

 

They do often phone employers to confirm what is said in an employer's letter. It will only take a slight slip to show this to be the lie that it is. Everyone at the company would have to be in on the lie; otherwise there is the risk that when the visa section phone to ask about their employee Mrs X, they are told no one of that name works there!

 

The ECO will also wonder why her 'salary' doesn't show up in her finances. e.g. her bank records.

 

If discovered to be attempting to obtain a visa by deception, which she probably will be, she will be banned from entering the UK as a visitor for up to 10 years, and it could even effect a future settlement application.

 

 

[English Engineer]

I am only explaining that her current position is that she has no reason to return to Thailand. This is the weakness in your application. This will always make them suspicious. Ideally it is better that she is employed for real. Can that not be arranged. This point must be addressed in some way if you want to be sure of success.  They must see a clear reason for returning after the vacation and she will not overstay.

 

Your alternative is to go for the settlement visa. This may be your best option. She can then come and go as she pleases.

 

[rasg]

7 hours ago, ronaldo0 said:

I applied first time and the only reason they turned my wife down was she only provided 3 months bank statements not the 6 they asked for. Despite the fact I was paying for everything and owned my uk house outright and had supporting bank statements to prove I could afford it.

The ECO has guidelines they have to follow. If you didn't supply six months they requested it would be hardly surprising that the visa was refused.

 

Having said that I would be interested in the type of visa she was applying for. If a visit visa, there are no requirements for a set amount of statements from either the sponsor or the applicant. Only to show that there are sufficient funds to pay for the trip. For my wife's two visit visas we supplied no bank statements for her at all.

 

Guess if you want it for certain pay a company to make sure the office stamps it !!

 

It doesn't work like that. VFS merely collate the info you supply for an application and send it through to UKVI. UKVI make the decision and VFS have no say in the decision making at all.

 

They said they did not think we were married despite us being married for 8 years and providing letters from people who came from uk to our wedding and photos off us on holiday and at our house together. They said she did not have the funds for a return flight !! She had over 1.2m in her bank for over a year !!

 

But did you supply your marriage certificate and if you were married in Thailand, did you supply an English translation? Without it they wouldn't have believed you were married.

 

I would be interested in seeing the refusal notice to find out why she was refused.

 

 

[7by7]

2 hours ago, English Engineer said:

Your alternative is to go for the settlement visa. This may be your best option. She can then come and go as she pleases.

Not entirely.

 

Obviously settlement visa holders are not imprisoned in the UK until they have ILR; they are allowed out for holidays, family visits etc.

 

But when applying for her FLR after 30 months in the UK she must show that she is 'present and settled in the UK,' that the UK is her main residence. She must show this again when applying for ILR 30 months after that.

 

Difficult to do if she has spent more time out of the UK than in!

 

Once she has ILR, she could still not 'come and go as she pleases.'

 

Were she to spend a continuous period of 2 years or more out of the UK her ILR would be cancelled and she would need the appropriate visa to enter the UK again. Even if she made regular visits to the UK her ILR could be cancelled by Border Force officers at her port of entry if they have reason to believe she is not a UK resident but merely using her ILR to make regular visits to the UK. Though she would be allowed in as a visitor on that occasion she would need to obtain the appropriate visa to enter the UK in future.

 

It is only if the OP's wife naturalised as British that she could then come and go as she pleased; like any other British citizen. To do that she would, of course, have to satisfy, among other things, the residency requirements.

 

That is not to say that settlement is not the way to go for the OP and his wife; but only if their intention is to live together in the UK long term. Which, from what he says, it isn't.

[ronaldo0]

Both times were for a 2 week holiday to visit my family then head for a week in Scotland to visit friends and was just a tourist visa as far as I remember.

You say it doesn't work like that with VFS so can you explain how several people I know with zero money or a 2 month relationship all used the same company and paid 30000bht each and got visas?

As for the marriage certificate I supplied originals and translation .I also supplied letters from people who were at our wedding saying they had known me all my life and one off them was a ex detective chief inspector in the police. Photos off our wedding, photos off us on holidays over the years and at our house. Detailed trip plan and emails from hotels where I was planning on staying with costs as I had to contact them before as I use a wheelchair so had to make sure they were accessible.

I will look out the letter and tell the reasons although I said them already. I fail to see how 1.2m bht is not enough for a return ticket from the UK !!

Saved me 10 grand on a holiday  I suppose !! 

[ronaldo0]

6 hours ago, rasg said:

The ECO has guidelines they have to follow. If you didn't supply six months they requested it would be hardly surprising that the visa was refused.

 

Having said that I would be interested in the type of visa she was applying for. If a visit visa, there are no requirements for a set amount of statements from either the sponsor or the applicant. Only to show that there are sufficient funds to pay for the trip. For my wife's two visit visas we supplied no bank statements for her at all.

 

Guess if you want it for certain pay a company to make sure the office stamps it !!

 

It doesn't work like that. VFS merely collate the info you supply for an application and send it through to UKVI. UKVI make the decision and VFS have no say in the decision making at all.

 

They said they did not think we were married despite us being married for 8 years and providing letters from people who came from uk to our wedding and photos off us on holiday and at our house together. They said she did not have the funds for a return flight !! She had over 1.2m in her bank for over a year !!

 

But did you supply your marriage certificate and if you were married in Thailand, did you supply an English translation? Without it they wouldn't have believed you were married.

 

I would be interested in seeing the refusal notice to find out why she was refused.

 

 

Both times were for a 2 week holiday to visit my family then head for a week in Scotland to visit friends and was just a tourist visa as far as I remember.

You say it doesn't work like that with VFS so can you explain how several people I know with zero money or a 2 month relationship all used the same company and paid 30000bht each and got visas?

As for the marriage certificate I supplied originals and translation .I also supplied letters from people who were at our wedding saying they had known me all my life and one off them was a ex detective chief inspector in the police. Photos off our wedding, photos off us on holidays over the years and at our house. Detailed trip plan and emails from hotels where I was planning on staying with costs as I had to contact them before as I use a wheelchair so had to make sure they were accessible.

I will look out the letter and tell the reasons although I said them already. I fail to see how 1.2m bht is not enough for a return ticket from the UK !!

Saved me 10 grand on a holiday  I suppose !! 

[meatboy]

from what the op.posted 5,000gbp.deposited at the thai embassey is WAY OUT OF HIS DEPTH.TOO MANY OUTGOINGS.

that alone is going to give you problems when it comes to proving you have the resouces.

[theoldgit]

2 hours ago, meatboy said:

from what the op.posted 5,000gbp.deposited at the thai embassey is WAY OUT OF HIS DEPTH.TOO MANY OUTGOINGS.

that alone is going to give you problems when it comes to proving you have the resouces.

There is no option to do this anyway, the Thai Embassy has a totally different role to the UKVI, they certainly don't hold deposits of guarantee.

I agree that the ECO was probably right to refuse the application based on what the OP has said, as 7by7 has indicated he might well think about taking up the offer of advice from Thai Visa Express. 

[rasg]

7 hours ago, ronaldo0 said:

Both times were for a 2 week holiday to visit my family then head for a week in Scotland to visit friends and was just a tourist visa as far as I remember.

You say it doesn't work like that with VFS so can you explain how several people I know with zero money or a 2 month relationship all used the same company and paid 30000bht each and got visas?

As for the marriage certificate I supplied originals and translation .I also supplied letters from people who were at our wedding saying they had known me all my life and one off them was a ex detective chief inspector in the police. Photos off our wedding, photos off us on holidays over the years and at our house. Detailed trip plan and emails from hotels where I was planning on staying with costs as I had to contact them before as I use a wheelchair so had to make sure they were accessible.

I will look out the letter and tell the reasons although I said them already. I fail to see how 1.2m bht is not enough for a return ticket from the UK !!

Saved me 10 grand on a holiday  I suppose !! 

If they used a reputable company and paid that kind of money I would assume they put a quality application together and knew the rights things to say. I had only known my GF for four months when I put an application together for her with help from people on a couple of Thai forums which was successful. The next visit visa a few months later, this time for two years was granted without fuss. Three months later we went for settlement and were married last June. No visa company used.

 

VFS have no input into the decision making at all. What they have been known to do is to remove items from an application on their own initiative which have almost guaranteed a refusal. I heard about quite a few applications where it's happened.

[ronaldo0]

1 minute ago, rasg said:

If they used a reputable company and paid that kind of money I would assume they put a quality application together and knew the rights things to say. I had only known my GF for four months when I put an application together for her with help from people on a couple of Thai forums which was successful. The next visit visa a few months later, this time for two years was granted without fuss. Three months later we went for settlement and were married last June. No visa company used.

 

VFS have no input into the decision making at all. What they have been known to do is to remove items from an application on their own initiative which have almost guaranteed a refusal. I heard about quite a few applications where it's happened.

There is a visit visa for 2 years ??

Im thinking off looking into moving back to the UK as sick of jumping through hoops here and do this do that one minute then next they want something different.

[rasg]

Yes. Two years, five years and ten years.