Runway shutdown at Suvarnabhumi airport expects to affect all flights

[geriatrickid]

12 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

Amazing!

 

It must be really falling apart if they are doing any kind of maintenance at all.

No. I it is called, scheduled maintenance. The airport already does  annual  closures to remove rubber, repaint and to check joints and drainage etc. A lengthy closure like this suggests that the normal  rebuild must be done. You may not realize it, but tarmacs  taking a a great deal of  wear and tear, especially the points of touchdown. They have to  regularly be rebuilt from scratch. Also the tar has to be redone in hot climates because the  exposure to heat  degrades its characteristics.  People are being unfair on this. There is nothing unusual about this.

 

[geriatrickid]

5 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Funny, isn't it. You never read of Heathrow or anywhere else having to close runways down for months at a time. I assume they were built to international, not Thai, standards.

 

It's unfortunate that you did not make the effort to understand the different characteristics of the two airports.  LHR doesn't have the same operational hours as BKK. There are severe flight restrictions at LHR. No flight departures are allowed between 11 pm and  4.30 AM

Between 11:30pm and 6am Heathrow is restricted by the Government to 5,800 night-time take-offs and landings a year. There is also a night quota limit, which caps the amount of noise the airport can make at night. Around 80% of the night flights at Heathrow are between 4.30-6am with on average around 16 aircraft are scheduled to arrive each day between these hours. Heathrow also has a voluntary ban in place that prevents flights scheduled between 4:30am-6am from landing before 4:30am. We also do not schedule any departures between 11pm and 6am.  

This means that LHR can easily schedule an 8 hour shut down. and operate a segmental approach to repairs.  http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22863507

 

BKK, because of its location and the nature of its foreign  flights  does not have the option of closing like LHR. It has to remain open at "night". The airport has flights landing or taking off every few minutes 24/7.

 

Therefore, when here is a need for significant repair or maintenance,  it is appropriate that there be a full closure for a defined period. This will allow all airlines to adjust their schedules accordingly and  allow for proper safety management.

let's be fair and  recognize that Thailand is following accepted best practices here.

 

Edited February 25, 2017 by geriatrickid

[geriatrickid]

7 hours ago, Srikcir said:

There is no backup runway with two active runways. This has been an ongoing aviation issue. Recently, the International Air Transport Association and the UN International Aviation Organization have urged preparations for a three runway system.

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-35613792

 

A third runway not only provides for a runway shutdown for maintenance but also for emergency shutdown.

 

 

The backup runway is DMK, which is  only a few minutes away. The time to do a go around allows for a reposition to DMK

 

You are referencing a news article which does not support your position. You also confuse ICAO and IATA. The article you refer to is from IATA, an airline trade association. It's  job is to represent the interests of its member airlines, to promote their views and their positions.   Of course IATA would advocate for more  runaway  opportunity and more airport  capacity because it is in the best interests of its IATA members with a vested interest.

 

The report that matters is the ICAO report. The other positions that matter are the  European and the US  airline regulatory agencies as they  govern whether their regulated airlines will be authorized to use  BKK.  Thailand is following the guidelines of ICAO and is acting in good faith.  There is nothing untoward or  incorrect here.

[Chicog]

I think they could have given a bit more notice.

 

It might have nudged Qatar into starting that DOH-CNX flight...

[jerojero]

How can they possibly accommodate 2x arrivals and departures on a single runway?

[NCC1701A]

1 hour ago, geriatrickid said:

14 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

Amazing!

 

It must be really falling apart if they are doing any kind of maintenance at all.

No. I it is called, scheduled maintenance. The airport already does  annual  closures to remove rubber, repaint and to check joints and drainage etc. A lengthy closure like this suggests that the normal  rebuild must be done. You may not realize it, but tarmacs  taking a a great deal of  wear and tear, especially the points of touchdown. They have to  regularly be rebuilt from scratch. Also the tar has to be redone in hot climates because the  exposure to heat  degrades its characteristics.  People are being unfair on this. There is nothing unusual about this.

 

 

I am very much aware of this, I sincerely thank you for your input.

 

Amazing!

It must be really falling apart if they are doing any kind of maintenance at all.

[geriatrickid]

2 minutes ago, NCC1701A said:

 

I am very much aware of this, I sincerely thank you for your input.

 

Amazing!

It must be really falling apart if they are doing any kind of maintenance at all.

And again,  I  inform you that it is scheduled. This means that the work has been planned in advance. The airport managers know that tarmac has a life cycle.  They also inspect on a daily basis. This allows them to plan and prepare in advance. The tarmac need not be in poor condition for scheduled maintenance to occur.

 

Oh, yes, I understand you are trying to be "sarcastic", but it falls flat. Know why? Because a tarmac that was "falling apart" would would cause aircraft to be grounded and an airport to close.  Debris  from a tarmac that was "falling apart" would be sprayed about by the engine exhaust. This could puncture air frames, break windows or otherwise damage the aircraft. It could also be ingested  by aircraft engines causing expensive damage to the engine. and culd result in catastrophic failure causing a crash. Why do you think runways are closed when a tire deflates on either a departing or arriving aircraft? All areas where the aircraft passed must be inspected for debris and other damage. If tarmac traffic is shut down for a small piece of rubber or metal, why then would you expect regularly scheduled maintenance would be deferred until the "runway was falling apart".  There would be no runway activity if that was the case. Foreign carriers still have to comply with their own national regulators.

 

[bendejo]

15 hours ago, NCC1701A said:

It must be really falling apart if they are doing any kind of maintenance at all.

 

I remember the Swampy project as Thaksin's baby.  I wonder if after he departed it was left to fall into disrepair as a way to spite him.  Or maybe it was just the usual mai pen rai, nothing gets fixed until it fully falls apart.  I'm no fan of the guy, but he knew how to light a fire under the right arse to get things done.

 

 

[oldcarguy]

I just hope they open more immigration stations so people can get thru the Airport quicker , 

 

The reports seem to show there is a holdup again at immigration , and much of it is Chinese tour groups , 

so make an arrival card in Chinese , have the tour fill them out in China with help from tour leaders,

 

yeah I know........too simple

 

 

[Ricardo]

5 hours ago, jerojero said:

How can they possibly accommodate 2x arrivals and departures on a single runway?

By scheduling the repair-work at night, when the airport is significantly less busy, as they have done previously ?  One suspects that this is what is actually being planned by the AAT, but the poor acting-lady from TG is unaware, even of this !

 

Regarding the quality of the original construction, I can recall Dear Leader (of the time) saying, that he'd been able to save the nation a lot of money by deliberately having the runways built to a lower-than-international standard. I wonder where those savings went ?

 

He correctly pointed out that Suvarnabhumi wouldn't need to withstand freezing-cold conditions in winter, unlike many other airports round the world, perhaps this reduction in standards may also have impacted the runways' durability to some extent ?

 

Whatever, there was similar disruption last time the runways required serious-maintenance, which surely should have signalled the need for work to start then on the third runway, it didn't happen then and it still isn't happening now !  

 

As others have already pointed out, the authorities appear to believe that they can seriously-expand the number of flights/passengers using Swampy, by expanding the terminal-capacity, but without the need for more overall runway-capacity.

[jaywalker]

11 hours ago, Dave67 said:

Formation or Foundation works are pretty crap throughout the 4 Asian nations Ive worked in

 

[Srikcir]

7 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

there is nothing unusual about this.

There is when you have no backup runway. Not only to alternate runways when routine maintenance is needed but also when a runway emergency (unscheduled repair, crashed aircraft) occurs. In the current case when the second runway is taken out of service the airport must reduce flights or face potential collisions if it instead decreases the gap between aircraft arrivals and departures to maintain overall flight volume.

 

It's like Thailand buying one submarine instead of two. When the one on patrol needs maintenance/repair, there is no backup to sustain security.

[Briggsy]

I have 2 flights during this period. I am already envisaging me landing at Don Meuang when my booked taxi is waiting at Suwannaphum.

[lvr181]

19 hours ago, SneekyPete said:

"Incoming and outgoing flights from Suvarnabhumi international airport are unavoidable..."

 

That is good news, is it not?

One can only guess that English is not the first language OR too lazy to get fluent English speaking person to correct  before publication.    TIT

Edited February 26, 2017 by lvr181
Additional comment

[fruitman]

13 hours ago, Bangkok Barry said:

Funny, isn't it. You never read of Heathrow or anywhere else having to close runways down for months at a time. I assume they were built to international, not Thai, standards.

 

They had huge cracks a year after opening, those  were repaired but it was already in the international newspapers.

 

 

[tgeezer]

 

 
Therefore, when here is a need for significant repair or maintenance,  it is appropriate that there be a full closure for a defined period. This will allow all airlines to adjust their schedules accordingly and  allow for proper safety management.
let's be fair and  recognize that Thailand is following accepted best practices here.
 

TV relies on ignorance and speculation, are you trying to ruin everything?


Sent from my iPhone using Thaivisa Connect

[Srikcir]

9 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

The backup runway is DMK, which is  only a few minutes away. The time to do a go around allows for a reposition to DMK

 

You are referencing a news article which does not support your position. You also confuse ICAO and IATA. The article you refer to is from IATA, an airline trade association. It's  job is to represent the interests of its member airlines, to promote their views and their positions.   Of course IATA would advocate for more  runaway  opportunity and more airport  capacity because it is in the best interests of its IATA members with a vested interest.

 

The report that matters is the ICAO report. The other positions that matter are the  European and the US  airline regulatory agencies as they  govern whether their regulated airlines will be authorized to use  BKK.  Thailand is following the guidelines of ICAO and is acting in good faith.  There is nothing untoward or  incorrect here.

I did not confuse ICAO and IATA. Both are mentioned in the article in the same context.

Thailand continues to have unresolved issues with ICAO.

My basic point is that BKK is running well beyond its flight capacity using a two runway system since 2012. DMK is also a two runway system operating at 60 flights per hour. http://www.donmuangairportonline.com/don-muang-airport-quick-facts

BKK was approved in 2016 to expand its passenger capacity to 76 flights per hour while TAT is planning for more. So you have 60 vs 76+ flights per hour. We're not talking about diverting an occasional flight to DMK from BBK but almost 16+ flights per hour! And that's with DMK already at its own capacity.

 

If you begin diverting BKK aircraft into DMK instead of reducing hourly flights at BBK (loss of revenue), DMK will have increase its capacity by reducing the time gap between flights or reduce DMK origin traffic (loss of revenue). Neither are reasonable nor safe alternatives.

[Briggsy]

U-Tapao?

Buri Ram?

[STEELINOX]

Prolly has sunk below water line ! Watch out for snakes and crocs !

[geriatrickid]

2 hours ago, Srikcir said:

There is when you have no backup runway. Not only to alternate runways when routine maintenance is needed but also when a runway emergency (unscheduled repair, crashed aircraft) occurs. In the current case when the second runway is taken out of service the airport must reduce flights or face potential collisions if it instead decreases the gap between aircraft arrivals and departures to maintain overall flight volume.

 

It's like Thailand buying one submarine instead of two. When the one on patrol needs maintenance/repair, there is no backup to sustain security.

 

You repeatedly emphasize that there are only two runways. So what? many airports only have two runways and  will shut down in the same manner as BKK. 

The statements you make are non factual and are products of your self delusion.   You really do not know anything about the airport do you? 

 

Hong Kong International, which is considered one of the best airports in the world has two runaways just like BKK. When the new runways had to be repaired, how do you think HKIA handled it? They shut the runways down over a period of months, alternating between the runways.   (Reference: Runway Closure Programme 2.1 RWY 07L/25R closed for 4 nights per week and RWY 07R/25L  closed for 3 nights per week. The nightly closure period will be 1730-2359 UTC over a period of months.)  This created a situation where there was only one   runway during  flight operations.

 

The other well regarded  airport in the region is Changi. It too has two commercial runways. (The third runway which is  now closed was reserved for military & government aircraft.) I can continue to make  a fool of you with a discussion of the  tarmac repairs at SIN and the closures that occurred, if you so desire.

 

How do you expect the airport to repair the runway safely if they do not  shut it down? 

 

How many times does it have to be explained to you that DMK is the  backup runway. Bangkok has the luxury of an operational  backup airport minutes away. Only a few airports in the world  have this luxury of a backup airport in the same region/city.  because of the proximity of DMK and its availability of a true backup facility, tarmac repairs can be handled differently.

 

You are criticizing for the sake of complaining and it is pathetic.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Do you know what other airports only have two runways and have  continued to operate while one runway was shut down for repairs?

HKIA

 

 

 

 

[geriatrickid]

11 minutes ago, Srikcir said:

I did not confuse ICAO and IATA. Both are mentioned in the article in the same context.

Thailand continues to have unresolved issues with ICAO.

My basic point is that BKK is running well beyond its flight capacity using a two runway system since 2012. DMK is also a two runway system operating at 60 flights per hour. http://www.donmuangairportonline.com/don-muang-airport-quick-facts

BKK was approved in 2016 to expand its passenger capacity to 76 flights per hour while TAT is planning for more. So you have 60 vs 76+ flights per hour. We're not talking about diverting an occasional flight to DMK from BBK but almost 16+ flights per hour! And that's with DMK already at its own capacity.

 

If you begin diverting BKK aircraft into DMK instead of reducing hourly flights at BBK (loss of revenue), DMK will have increase its capacity by reducing the time gap between flights or reduce DMK origin traffic (loss of revenue). Neither are reasonable nor safe alternatives.

Once again you are  wrong. You make a lot of assumptions. Are you incapable of comprehending data? Flight activity for the planned repairs shows that;

1. The number of flights at BKK starts to decrease in March, reaching the lowest point of the year in June, and then starts to increase again in October.  In fact, this is what the traffic pattern is for all of Thailand. You confuse domestic activity with international activity.

There is a sharp increase in domestic travel in June and July but this is for all of Thailand and it will not interfere in the airport serving as a backup airport to BKK in an emergency.

 

2. BKK currently accepts  just under  1 million pax from  nonscheduled  charters, and private business flights. These pax can be  transferred to DMK if need be.

 

3. You ignore the impact of cargo operations: BKK cargo related activity is significantly less  then in previous years  and continues to   decrease at BKK because of;

i) Transfer of TG domestic cargo to WS  at DMK

ii) Larger planes and the use of  improved logistics management which has been sending out full loads on larger planes reducing the number of cargo specific flights needed.

iii) Decrease in overall  in cargo activity.

 

Yes, there will be tarmac delays at peak departure and arrival hours. At worse, the airport will be no different than LHR, PEK, PVG, ORD, CDG FRA etc. For most pax, there may be an additional 10-20 minutes on the tarmac. Plan accordingly.

[Bangkok Barry]

12 hours ago, geriatrickid said:

 

It's unfortunate that you did not make the effort to understand the different characteristics of the two airports.  LHR doesn't have the same operational hours as BKK. There are severe flight restrictions at LHR. No flight departures are allowed between 11 pm and  4.30 AM

Between 11:30pm and 6am Heathrow is restricted by the Government to 5,800 night-time take-offs and landings a year. There is also a night quota limit, which caps the amount of noise the airport can make at night. Around 80% of the night flights at Heathrow are between 4.30-6am with on average around 16 aircraft are scheduled to arrive each day between these hours. Heathrow also has a voluntary ban in place that prevents flights scheduled between 4:30am-6am from landing before 4:30am. We also do not schedule any departures between 11pm and 6am.  

This means that LHR can easily schedule an 8 hour shut down. and operate a segmental approach to repairs.  http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-22863507

 

BKK, because of its location and the nature of its foreign  flights  does not have the option of closing like LHR. It has to remain open at "night". The airport has flights landing or taking off every few minutes 24/7.

 

Therefore, when here is a need for significant repair or maintenance,  it is appropriate that there be a full closure for a defined period. This will allow all airlines to adjust their schedules accordingly and  allow for proper safety management.

let's be fair and  recognize that Thailand is following accepted best practices here.

 

Well, that raises the question of if Bangkok doesn't have a period in which they can close runways down then why wasn't that taken into consideration when the airport was built. Like having an extra runway to use when maintenance is required. As it is, the airport was designed to have periods of disruption and delays, which is really quite remarkable.