Hi guys, my first posting.

I am retiring to Thailand with my thai wife end of this year, i have a house in a village.I am 54 yr old wife 39 yr old. UK citizen . I have a youtube channel (new hobby) which is monetized so small income and will have website small income plus i want to be able to work on my own house general painting , repairs etc.

So either i give up the above incomes and house work repairs and get retirement visa or is there a choice with work permit and say marriage visa ?

Could you advise please.

simon

To get a work permit you would need to form a company or partnership.

You could get a work permit with a non-o visa or extension of stay based upon marriage. But not if you got a retirement extension.

What you do in the privacy of your own home on a computer does not really require a work permit.

Small repairs and such on your own home would not require a work permit either.

A work-visa in Thailand is for doing a specific job at a specific place for a specific Thai business (or Thai branch of a foreign-business).  A work permit would only be issued to you if you created a business here, meeting paid-up capital requirements, and hired 4 Thais to work at that business for each foreigner-work-permit issued.  In some areas of the country (it varies by office), if your wife is a partner, you may only have to hire 2 Thais.

 

Many have asked if there is a way to have small businesses like you describe (online-businesses), which do not require significant capital to start, so they can pay taxes here and get a work permit, but I am not aware of anyone who has found a way to do this.  By the letter of the law, this activity would be illegal without a work-permit, though there is no way to obtain one for the purpose.  Though this law is not currently being enforced, it could be at any time (as have other old formerly-unenforced laws).  If the YouTube videos could be traced to you, and it was clear they were made in Thailand, this could come back to bite you later.

 

The house-work you describe would fall into protected labor-categories for which no work is permitted by foreigners, ever.  Even if you created a house-painting corporation in Thailand, with paid-up capital and the requisite Thai employees, you could only work as a manager of that business - not do any actual painting.  To paint your house legally, you would need to become a Thai citizen.  Enforcement on this point would come down to whether anyone reported you.  People have been arrested for mowing their own lawns and similar activities.  The point of them letting you (us) live here, is that you will spend money into the economy and hire locals.

Edited February 25, 20179 yr by JackThompson

15 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

People have been arrested for mowing their own lawns and similar activities. 

I think you are over stating most of what you wrote in you post. It is not near as bad as you imply.

What I quoted is mostly from hearsay by people with no real knowledge if it was real or not (aka rumours).

Thank you for your replies, It seems that my best option is to set up a business in the media area for the youtube / website income and employ local people to do everything on my properties. Has anyone got a rough idea of cost ?

15 minutes ago, ubonjoe said:

I think you are over stating most of what you wrote in you post. It is not near as bad as you imply.

What I quoted is mostly from hearsay by people with no real knowledge if it was real or not (aka rumours).

Granted, we do not hear stories from all those who do these things with no consequence, undoubtedly the vast majority.  I would suppose it is a question of one's relations with neighbors and local law-enforcement as to where they would draw the line on house-work.

 

4 minutes ago, simonp2 said:

Thank you for your replies, It seems that my best option is to set up a business in the media area for the youtube / website income and employ local people to do everything on my properties. Has anyone got a rough idea of cost ?

Is your you-tube income significant enough to justify the cost and effort of legal-fees to setup up a company and permanently hire multiple Thai employees? 

Not yet, however websites and youtube revenue would probably be 500,000 baht a year as a projection.

It is probably not financially practical for you to set up a formal business. Technically you are breaking the law by carrying out your occupation, even at home, however, the authorities do not seem to actively seek out or prosecute such work.

 

There is nothing wrong with having an online business with a passive income.

 

You should have no problem carrying out work on the property you live in. They would only be able to prosecute if they could prove in a court that you were carrying out work as a way to earn an income. The worst, should someone make a complaint, that is likely to happen would be a request to stop.

 

Note that you, almost certainly, don't own the property and would be working for the owner. Labour costs are very low so it's often beneficial to get a Thai to do the work.

Edited February 25, 20179 yr by elviajero

1 hour ago, elviajero said:

You should have no problem carrying out work on the property you live in. They would only be able to prosecute if they could prove in a court that you were carrying out work as a way to earn an income. The worst, should someone make a complaint, that is likely to happen would be a request to stop.

Note that you, almost certainly, don't own the property and would be working for the owner. Labour costs are very low so it's often beneficial to get a Thai to do the work.

My understanding, is that one needs a work-permit, even for volunteer work.  Although I am sure foreigners do handy-man work on their wife's home and get away with it frequently, those who are turned-in / caught will be paying someone (police, and/or lawyer, and/or court) to deal with the matter.

14 minutes ago, JackThompson said:

My understanding, is that one needs a work-permit, even for volunteer work.  Although I am sure foreigners do handy-man work on their wife's home and get away with it frequently, those who are turned-in / caught will be paying someone (police, and/or lawyer, and/or court) to deal with the matter.

You're correct, but voluntary work is a specific type of work for a qualifying organisation that requires permission.

 

Work around your home is not work in the context of employment/occupation, and as such does not require permission.

Posts and replies that were just baiting and bickering have been removed. Time to end it.

On 2/25/2017 at 5:11 AM, JackThompson said:

A work-visa in Thailand is for doing a specific job at a specific place for a specific Thai business (or Thai branch of a foreign-business).  A work permit would only be issued to you if you created a business here, meeting paid-up capital requirements, and hired 4 Thais to work at that business for each foreigner-work-permit issued.  In some areas of the country (it varies by office), if your wife is a partner, you may only have to hire 2 Thais.

 

Many have asked if there is a way to have small businesses like you describe (online-businesses), which do not require significant capital to start, so they can pay taxes here and get a work permit, but I am not aware of anyone who has found a way to do this.  By the letter of the law, this activity would be illegal without a work-permit, though there is no way to obtain one for the purpose.  Though this law is not currently being enforced, it could be at any time (as have other old formerly-unenforced laws).  If the YouTube videos could be traced to you, and it was clear they were made in Thailand, this could come back to bite you later.

Hi JackThompson and UbonJoe,

 

If I may, I would like to ask for a couple of points of clarification, since you seem very knowledgeable:

 

1) If I run an online business  while living in Thailand, that involves product sourcing in Thailand, but the business entity is a U.S. LLC, do I still need a work permit (i.e., does my business activity fall under the category of work for "a Thai branch of a foreign business" simply because I perform said business activity on Thai soil, even though such work from home with no employees would typically not meet the legal definition of a "branch" entity)?

 

2) Is it possible for my Thai wife to form a "family business" while being the sole owner (a sole proprietorship), and for this family business which is solely registered in her name to then be able to issue me a work permit (assuming that we meet the capitalization requirement, be it 1 million baht or 2 million)? EDIT: I see in another thread that a sole proprietorship can issue a work permit. Would the minimum Thai employee count also have to be two, to sponsor the work permit, resulting in a 20,000 baht monthly overhead?

 

3) After I am issued a work permit, based on the issuing business being able to meet the capitalization requirement, if I am exempted from the minimum monthly salary requirement of 50,000 baht due to being "a cohabiting spouse of a Thai national in honest employment," [cf. this article for details] is it then possible for me to just receive a salary amount equaling the Thai minimum wage? Or is it unrealistic to hope that this 50,000 baht requirement would be waived?

 

4) After I am issued a work permit for the first time, are the requirements the same for subsequent 1-year renewals of the work permit? For example, does the issuing business have to provide evidence of continuing 1 million or 2 million baht capitalization or re-capitalization each year, or is this only an initial requirement for the business to receive the ability to provide a work permit, and after receiving that ability the work permit may be renewed each year without further requirements or hassles?

 

Much gratitude,

Edited March 3, 20179 yr by wml22
Revised questions based on finding new information

52 minutes ago, wml22 said:

Hi JackThompson, if I may, I would like to ask for a couple of points of clarification, since you seem very knowledgeable:

These questions are beyond my knowledge - as I have only pursued this far enough to see that what I would like to do is either impossible or grossly inefficient for the business I would like to open here.  Generally speaking, if you are "doing work" in Thailand, you need a work permit for this activity.   I have a US business I would prefer to re-locate here, and pay all business / personal taxes here (instead of there) but I cannot do it in a sensible fashion.  As your business would source product here, it might be worth the trouble of your jumping through the hoops. 

 

If you can stay here on a Non-O based on marriage, this saves you from having to qualify at Immigration for extensions of stay based on working.  This means, you only have to deal with the "work permit" rules from the Labor Dept.  Note in your linked-page "foreigners applying for non-immigrant visa extensions for employment in Thailand" is where the income-requirements appear.  Those will not affect you.

 

Forming a local branch of your business would be one way to go.  Some have suggested this as easier than starting a business from scratch.  You need to incorporate the business with the capital.  I am not sure if "sole proprietorships" can do this (I thought these were non-incorporated by definition - as they are in my country) - but someone else can say for sure.

 

But to spite what that article reads, my understanding is that the labor dept always wants to see Thai Employees before YOU can get a work-permit.  It's 2 or 4 - depending on the Labor Dept you report to, since some give a break for the wife's involvement.  So if your goal is the work permit - start with "how do I do this to make local hires fit into the picture".  I could be incorrect on this, but that is what I recall reading on this forum.

 

My question to the forum would be:  If he uses the "branch of foreign business" approach, does he still have to hire the locals and/or meet the capital requirements?

 

Unless you get a break on those requirements from going with the branch-method, it probably best to do the wife-partnership and move on to the "how many local-hires" question.

Edited March 3, 20179 yr by JackThompson

8 hours ago, JackThompson said:

Generally speaking, if you are "doing work" in Thailand, you need a work permit for this activity.  [...] I have a US business I would prefer to re-locate here, and pay all business / personal taxes here (instead of there) but I cannot do it in a sensible fashion.  As your business would source product here, it might be worth the trouble of your jumping through the hoops. 

 

[...] Note in your linked-page "foreigners applying for non-immigrant visa extensions for employment in Thailand" is where the income-requirements appear.  Those will not affect you. [...]

 

My question to the forum would be:  If he uses the "branch of foreign business" approach, does he still have to hire the locals and/or meet the capital requirements?

 

Unless you get a break on those requirements from going with the branch-method, it probably best to do the wife-partnership and move on to the "how many local-hires" question.

Thanks so much for the information. I found some info that seems relevant (from http://thailawyers.com/foreign-business-in-thailand/):

 

Quote

" Thailand and the USA signed the Treaty of Amity (the Treaty of Amity and Economic Relations between the Kingdom of Thailand and the United States of America) on 29 May 1966. Because of the Treaty of Amity, American citizens and American majority owned companies can operate their business in Thailand without having to have a Foreign Business License. However, they still have to request for the Certificate of Business Operation from the Bureau of Foreign Business Administration, Department of Business Development  of the Ministry of Commerce, Thailand. The company which has the certificate to operate the business this way is often referred to as a Treaty of Amity company.

Here is the full version of Treaty of Amity between Thailand and U.S.A. "

It would seem that I don't need a Foreign Business License, just a Certificate of Business Operation. There is more information about this here (http://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/US-Thai Amity.php):

 

Quote

Although treaty-protected companies are given advantage treatment under US-Thai Amity Treaty, they still need to satisfy the minimum capital requirement under the Foreign business Act (FBA).

In case that the business is not restricted under the FBA, the minimum capital requirement for a treaty-protected company is THB 2 million.

[...] For a sole proprietorship, all that is required to seek protection under the Thailand Treaty of Amity is a notarized copy of the owner's passport or birth certificate to prove U.S. citizenship (either by birth or naturalization). They must send this information to the Commercial Service office at the U.S. Embassy in Bangkok for certification.

It looks like the main benefit of being an Treaty of Amity business is exemption from the requirement to obtain an  "Alien Business License" which would otherwise be required in order to engage in retail, wholesale, etc (cf. 2016.export.gov). Unfortunately, the Treaty of Amity does not enable the proprietor of the business to work without a work permit, or automatically receive a work permit (https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=23331):

 

Quote

Please note that although under the Treaty Americans have the right to own and control their Thai limited company, it does not grant Americans unrestricted freedoms to stay or work in Thailand. In other words, Americans must obtain the relevant valid Thai visas and work permits to stay and work in Thailand just like citizens of other third countries.

Getting a work permit for a Treaty of Amity company has a suggested capitalization of THB 3 million (cf. http://gam-legalalliance.com/services/business-support/treaty-of-amity/). This seems to answer your question "If he uses the "branch of foreign business" approach, does he still have to hire the locals and/or meet the capital requirements? " in the affirmative. Unfortunately it seems that there is no way to avoid or reduce the standard capitalization and local hiring requirements by using a branch of foreign business, or even by operating a foreign business directly (without forming a branch) on Thai soil.

 

Also, it appears that the treaty will be rescinded at some point, possibly soon, and after that the Treaty of Amity companies will probably have to apply for Foreign Business License (cf. http://www.bia.co.th/006.html , updated September 2016). So it could be a lot of hassle to go through for nothing.

 

So, it seems like your initial thought was therefore right: it's probably best to set up through the wife, and the wife's company needs to meet the capitalization requirement and local hiring requirement to issue a work permit for me.

 

EDIT: There are now three major questions left:

 

1) My biggest question is still whether the wife's company is granted the allowance to provide a work permit every year, after meeting the capitalization requirement the first time only, or whether the capitalization requirement must also be met for each subsequent year that the work permit is renewed for me. This of course makes a huge difference because if the THB 1 million capitalization (halved for me from the usual amount, as the spouse of Thai national) is required each time my work permit is renewed, then her business needs to keep that money in reserve to ensure that I can keep working in future years.

 

2) Would using my US company as a Treaty of Amity company still allow me to obtain a work permit based on the lower THB 1 million capitalization which is normally required for the spouse of a Thai national? It's not clear if this lower capitalization requirement based on marriage to Thai national is allowed when the company issuing the work permit is a foreign company. (But even if it is allowed, because of the hoops to jump through it still is probably better to just set up a Thai company.)

 

3) If the nature of my work for both the wife's company and for my U.S. company is the same (e-commerce management), if I get a work permit from the wife's company permitting me to do that kind of work, do I then become legally entitled to do the same kind of work for my own U.S. company? I.e. can I somehow use the work permit to do the work for both companies, the company of my Thai wife and my own U.S. company, while (A) only obtaining the work permit based on the wife's company and (B) only obtaining the Certificate of Business Operation for the US company based on the Treaty of Amity?

Edited March 3, 20179 yr by wml22

10 hours ago, wml22 said:

Thanks so much for the information. I found some info that seems relevant (from http://thailawyers.com/foreign-business-in-thailand/):

 

It would seem that I don't need a Foreign Business License, just a Certificate of Business Operation. There is more information about this here (http://www.siam-legal.com/Business-in-Thailand/US-Thai Amity.php):

 

It looks like the main benefit of being an Treaty of Amity business is exemption from the requirement to obtain an  "Alien Business License" which would otherwise be required in order to engage in retail, wholesale, etc (cf. 2016.export.gov). Unfortunately, the Treaty of Amity does not enable the proprietor of the business to work without a work permit, or automatically receive a work permit (https://www.hg.org/article.asp?id=23331):

 

Getting a work permit for a Treaty of Amity company has a suggested capitalization of THB 3 million (cf. http://gam-legalalliance.com/services/business-support/treaty-of-amity/). This seems to answer your question "If he uses the "branch of foreign business" approach, does he still have to hire the locals and/or meet the capital requirements? " in the affirmative. Unfortunately it seems that there is no way to avoid or reduce the standard capitalization and local hiring requirements by using a branch of foreign business, or even by operating a foreign business directly (without forming a branch) on Thai soil.

 

Also, it appears that the treaty will be rescinded at some point, possibly soon, and after that the Treaty of Amity companies will probably have to apply for Foreign Business License (cf. http://www.bia.co.th/006.html , updated September 2016). So it could be a lot of hassle to go through for nothing.

 

So, it seems like your initial thought was therefore right: it's probably best to set up through the wife, and the wife's company needs to meet the capitalization requirement and local hiring requirement to issue a work permit for me.

 

EDIT: There are now three major questions left:

 

1) My biggest question is still whether the wife's company is granted the allowance to provide a work permit every year, after meeting the capitalization requirement the first time only, or whether the capitalization requirement must also be met for each subsequent year that the work permit is renewed for me. This of course makes a huge difference because if the THB 1 million capitalization (halved for me from the usual amount, as the spouse of Thai national) is required each time my work permit is renewed, then her business needs to keep that money in reserve to ensure that I can keep working in future years.

 

2) Would using my US company as a Treaty of Amity company still allow me to obtain a work permit based on the lower THB 1 million capitalization which is normally required for the spouse of a Thai national? It's not clear if this lower capitalization requirement based on marriage to Thai national is allowed when the company issuing the work permit is a foreign company. (But even if it is allowed, because of the hoops to jump through it still is probably better to just set up a Thai company.)

 

3) If the nature of my work for both the wife's company and for my U.S. company is the same (e-commerce management), if I get a work permit from the wife's company permitting me to do that kind of work, do I then become legally entitled to do the same kind of work for my own U.S. company? I.e. can I somehow use the work permit to do the work for both companies, the company of my Thai wife and my own U.S. company, while (A) only obtaining the work permit based on the wife's company and (B) only obtaining the Certificate of Business Operation for the US company based on the Treaty of Amity?

 

On capitalization requirements, some have said these can be avoided if the wife opens the company solo, then a foreigner buys in later.  This may or may not be true - just "forum talk" I have read.  Be sure to speak to a qualified atty regarding any decision - as many infractions which fall into the "civil" category in Western countries, fall into the "criminal" category, here. 

 

I have not researched what happens in subsequent years regarding capital-requirements, but assume if they are required in year 1, they would continue to be required, as their purpose is to offset any liabilities to Thais, should the business encounter financial trouble.

 

Work-permits are for one business at one location only, from my understanding.  Perhaps you and your wife's company could be "doing business" with your US-company - acting as manager of it?

 

The only advantage I researched of for using the Treaty of Amity, is that an American can own 100% of the company this way.  Also, that a lawyer's costs to set one up are purportedly non-trivial.  I have no information on its likelihood to survive into the future.

 

If you do set the business up with your wife, you may wish to ensure your shares are preferred / voting shares, just to avoid dangling fruit for her relatives who may not have your best interests at heart.  This is to protect your wife - similar to the legal-step guaranteeing your right to live in the house you build here forever, so they will not pressure her to take it from you and sell it for their gain - it avoids her ever having to "choose between them and you," which will be their emotional appeal, backed by a cultural-mandate requiring that she choose them.

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532

 

Exactly your situation.. 

17 hours ago, LivinLOS said:

http://www.phuketgazette.net/issuesanswers/Is-uploading-videos-YouTube-considered-work/1532

 

Exactly your situation.. 

I think it is worth re-posting this reply here - as it is from "Yaowapa Pibulpol, chief of Phuket Provincial Employment Office (PPEO)" - regarding whether income from YouTube channels is considered "work in Thailand" or not:

 

Quote

No, it isn’t, as long as the uploading is for fun or to share on social media networks publicly for free. However, if you turn on YouTube ads while living in Thailand, or post them in your own blog where they can collect revenue, this could be considered work. Even if you posted videos while outside Thailand, but then activated or turned on ads related to them, this would still be considered work, as you would be making money while in the country. It means you are working while you are living in the Kingdom. However, if you activated the ads before entering the country, but still received revenue once entering the country for your holiday, then this would not be considered as working while staying in Thailand.

Therefore, if you want to "do work" on your online-business, time it with trips out of the country, and all is legal.  No other country in the world cares if you work on your youtube channel while there on a Tourist entry (that I know of), so you have plenty of choices.

On 3/3/2017 at 8:16 PM, JackThompson said:

 

I have not researched what happens in subsequent years regarding capital-requirements, but assume if they are required in year 1, they would continue to be required, as their purpose is to offset any liabilities to Thais, should the business encounter financial trouble.

 

Work-permits are for one business at one location only, from my understanding.  Perhaps you and your wife's company could be "doing business" with your US-company - acting as manager of it?

Thanks, I appreciate the time and effort you put into your reply. Regarding the above quoted points, I am not sure for the following reasons:

 

1) It was my impression that a capitalization requirement by definition usually pertains the the establishment of a business - so if a "continuing capitalization requirement" of 1 or 2 million baht is needed each year the work permit is renewed, it is a misnomer to call it capitalization at that point.

 

EDIT: I just spoke to a Thai lawyer on the phone who said that the capitalization requirement is only for the establishment of the company. For subsequent years, when the work permit is being renewed, the company only must prove that it employed the minimum number of Thai employees during the preceding year and that its income during the last year exceeded the payroll funds that will be needed in the coming year (i.e the company must show that its income in the last year was greater than the annual cost of paying the 2 - 4 Thai worker salaries + the foreign employee's salary).

 

2) If work permits are truly restricted to one business and one location in Thailand, then unless teachers are an exception, this would mean that an English teacher with a work permit issued by "School A" to "teach English" is breaking the law by ever offering paid private tutoring (self-employment) and by offering tutoring at a language center after school hours (contract labor). But I believe that a huge number of English teachers do these things. Are they all breaking the law?

 

 

EDIT: Apparently the work permit only allows the foreign employee to work for the specific company that issued the permit. 

 

I will try to find out about "doing business" with the US company as an option. It's amazing that there is no provision for self-employment in Thailand, or even posting YouTube videos with ad revenue. This is really frustrating.