Visa Difficult? So Now Farangs Feel What Asians Feel!

[LaoPo]

Funnily enough, it was neither a lottery nor humiliating for my husband and I when we applied after we first got married. Oddly enough, we were both quite young, I had no job in the US, had just finished University and we planned on living with my parents and getting it was no huge difficulty. Lots of paperwork, yes, but eventually, because we qualified and my husband had no criminal record, it came through.

I often wonder how many people who have difficulties find they do so because they don't actually qualify?

Maybe so, sbk, and you were both fortunate.

The USA is not the same USA anymore since you married and that was quite some time ago. But you know better than me.

The US has become an unfriendly country to visit. The number of tourists is in sharp decline and even the number of business visitors is going down.

I read an article that the US ministry of tourism is talking now with Disney about HOW to stop this trend...

Not so long ago many Europeans were visiting the US for a holiday...not anymore.

I always enjoyed visiting the US untill some 10-12 years ago; I even built my own business in SF/California but it's no fun anymore since people do NOT enjoy handing over all their private information to the US authorities and waiting in line for hours once arriving at the airport(s) greeted by unfriendly customs/passport authorities asking (again) so many questions.

Sad but true.

LaoPo

What does a tourism decline in the US have to do with obtaining a visa? What role does Walt Disney play in the issuing of visas? What do new European holiday trends have to do with US visas? What does you thinking that the US is "no fun anymore" have to do with US visa policies??

Both you and the OP have obtained the visas that you're complaining it's too hard to obtain... was the paperwork THAT difficult?

BTW, there is no Ministry of Tourism in the US.

and customs officials are not meant to be friendly.

Sad but true.

My post was addressed to 'sbk', a well respected Moderator of TV, not you.

LaoPo

[Heng]

Thailand NEEDS tourism income. Most Western countries DON'T.

Thailand WANTS tourism income. Thailand wants tourists who take their vacations like normal folks (less than 3 months... and without spending the rest of their lives at their vacation destinations on tourist visas). For immigrants, there are other options that have nothing to do with tourism.

Sorry Heng, it's not just a desire: it's a NEED.

In 2006 it is STILL A NEED for a developing country like Thailand.

(Fast developing, OK)

Anyway. Did you read my post??

(BTW HENG, WHO CAN NOT SEE IT? THE XENOPHOBIA, the morbid fear of the white foreigner, of the round eyes............)

(Give it a thought? I'm telling YOU because... well... I think you know why I speak to "you"...)

No, I disagree. This subject has come up more than a few times, and the numbers clearly show what sectors compose the Thai economy. Feel free to google and search, I'm not going to do it for you. Tourist dollars are important and with relatively low cost in terms of ROI, is more than welcome, but again not needed. Are we defining 'need' in the same way? Which particular need are you referring to? The need of hotel chains, guest houses, and many touristy bars to maintain revenue over a certain point? IMO, that's not a need.

As for xenophobia... again, I disagree. It's simply preference. The same preference that was at one time represented by Jim Crow Laws in the US and aparteid in South Africa. And for the record, I'm not saying it's correct or right by any means. As far as I know, the immigration laws are equally targeting foreigners of all nationalities (although given more Asians slip through).

[davidjtayler]

Funnily enough, it was neither a lottery nor humiliating for my husband and I when we applied after we first got married. Oddly enough, we were both quite young, I had no job in the US, had just finished University and we planned on living with my parents and getting it was no huge difficulty. Lots of paperwork, yes, but eventually, because we qualified and my husband had no criminal record, it came through.

I often wonder how many people who have difficulties find they do so because they don't actually qualify?

Maybe so, sbk, and you were both fortunate.

The USA is not the same USA anymore since you married and that was quite some time ago. But you know better than me.

The US has become an unfriendly country to visit. The number of tourists is in sharp decline and even the number of business visitors is going down.

I read an article that the US ministry of tourism is talking now with Disney about HOW to stop this trend...

Not so long ago many Europeans were visiting the US for a holiday...not anymore.

I always enjoyed visiting the US untill some 10-12 years ago; I even built my own business in SF/California but it's no fun anymore since people do NOT enjoy handing over all their private information to the US authorities and waiting in line for hours once arriving at the airport(s) greeted by unfriendly customs/passport authorities asking (again) so many questions.

Sad but true.

LaoPo

What does a tourism decline in the US have to do with obtaining a visa? What role does Walt Disney play in the issuing of visas? What do new European holiday trends have to do with US visas? What does you thinking that the US is "no fun anymore" have to do with US visa policies??

Both you and the OP have obtained the visas that you're complaining it's too hard to obtain... was the paperwork THAT difficult?

BTW, there is no Ministry of Tourism in the US.

and customs officials are not meant to be friendly.

Sad but true.

My post was addressed to 'sbk', a well respected Moderator of TV, not you.

LaoPo

Pretty much sums up the brown nosing culture of Thaivisa there .... this is a forum Laopo so expect replies from the general populus when you post .... if you want exclusivity to a particular person then I suggest you PM him/her ... muppet !

[papakapbaan]

No, I disagree. This subject has come up more than a few times, and the numbers clearly show what sectors compose the Thai economy. Feel free to google and search, I'm not going to do it for you. Tourist dollars are important and with relatively low cost in terms of ROI, is more than welcome, but again not needed.

Heng:

I'm like you, not really interested in this never ending debate...

With the new immigration regulations and restrictions of all sorts, I have a feeling we will finally KNOW soon enough!

I will just say that whoever does not recognize the MAJOR IMPORTANCE OF TOURISM INCOME (AND INCOME FROM LONG TERM FOREIGN RESIDENTS) (Not all of them, OK!) IN THAILAND, IS NOT BEING REALIST.

The question is not really whether Thailand as a country, macro-economically, would survive or not without the same (a similar) level of tourism income as it is collecting now.

Sure, it would. And in a reasonably good economic shape.

But please consider something else now: The Thai elite relied on very cheap labour costs for much too long: c'est fini!!

So you may want to ask yourself: What source of revenues do you have in Thailand THAT IS IN ANY LONG TERM POSITION OF STRENGTH BESIDES TOURISM?

(As far as I am amware. I will admit I am not very versed in the Thai economy but I believe the general picture as follows is correct)

-Textiles/garments: now going to China.

-Computers parts: now going to Vietnam and India.

-Furniture and handicrafts: now going to Indonesia.

-Automobiles: wait for the big dive of the local demand and see! (bound to happen sooner or later in an environement of depressed consumption)

I am tempted to say: you may soon be left with only:

-Agricultural products!

(Ok. A lot of processed foods and beverages too!)

BTW! If it was not the case, why would the TAT and other governmental agencies and even ministries be SO concerned about building up the image of Thailand as a new REGIONAL TOURISM CENTRE/HUB (read: FOR ASIAN TOURISM) (Suvarnabhumi, Rachapruek, and so on).

Are we defining 'need' in the same way? Which particular need are you referring to? The need of hotel chains, guest houses, and many touristy bars to maintain revenue over a certain point? IMO, that's not a need.

It is obvious, the businesses you mention account for a huge portion of the economic activity of many cities/areas of Thailand.

In tourist areas, we are talking about a NEED for tourism income.

So you don't seem to be too concerned in your line of business??

I have another feeling about the economic situation in Thailand: you may soon find an increase of bad loans in your books.

Do you have a drawer for "Tourism industry related projects"?

For "Farang Supported Isaanites Lao Kao type projects" maybe?

OLALA!!!

[PeaceBlondie]

Pardon me if someone has already made this point (such as kudroz saying 'apples and oranges'), but aside from we folks here on ThaiVisa, does common sense require that all countries have identical visa laws? Do all countries actually apply their own laws uniformly?

And to some people's thinking, Thailand can have whatever laws it wishes (and enforce them as it wishes), regardless of how Ireland or Slovakia or Singapore or Mali does with their immigration laws.

Is there some international treaty where all its signatories have to make and uniformly apply the same laws? Again, the answer is 'no.'

[Roger Dodger]

Pardon me if someone has already made this point (such as kudroz saying 'apples and oranges'), but aside from we folks here on ThaiVisa, does common sense require that all countries have identical visa laws? Do all countries actually apply their own laws uniformly?

And to some people's thinking, Thailand can have whatever laws it wishes (and enforce them as it wishes), regardless of how Ireland or Slovakia or Singapore or Mali does with their immigration laws.

Is there some international treaty where all its signatories have to make and uniformly apply the same laws? Again, the answer is 'no.'

Well said there, Blondie!

This "discussion" really should end here.

[papakapbaan]

OK, OK! WEALTHY ASIAN BOYS ("A PAPA"?)...

I am getting slightly bored with your rant...

It is HARD for you to get a TOURIST VISA to western countries?

We basically ALL know that!

Is it the subject at hand?? Only colaterally!

On Thaivisa now, we are not only discussing how difficult it is for Farangs (Westerners) to get TOURIST VISAS to Thailand since 01/10/2006.

As far as I am concerned, I would like to see more focus put on how difficult it is for foreigners to get LONG TERM VISAS TO THAILAND (and extension of stay!) since 01/10/2006!

Why this arrogance?

BECAUSE FYI: LONG TERM VISAS ARE RELATIVALY EASY TO GET (FOR ANYBODY WITH THE GOOD REASONS) IN MOST OF THE WESTERN WORLD!

(PERMANENT STAY IS EASY TO ACHIEVE, I SHOULD SAY!)

PeaceBlondie thinks comparisons do not really make sense. But the wealthy Asian boys started...

Here is how it will very generally work:

As long as you are:

-Married: you will usually: GET AN ID CARD AFTER 1 YEAR. ONE YEAR. Not yet the standard color, but coming soon!

-Paying your taxes on ANY sort of business and on the property you rent: you will usually have NO PROBLEMO TO RUN YOUR BUSINESS.

(There are processes to be followed and capital to show. But you don't need to hire 4 nationals and pay yourself a salary 10 times the national average)

(BTW I am sure you know it's not a problem at all for wealthy Asians to BUY property anywhere (or mostly anywhere?) in the West)

LET ME ADD... If you are the father or mother of a national: you are sure to be granted special attention and status regardless of your wealth, marital status and DEFINITELY REGARDLESS OF YOUR AGE! @@

(Cf. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=97261)

COMPARE THIS WITH THE SITUATION IN THAILAND:

-Anyway: permitted to stay at best for one year at a time (married for 20-30 years: same: get 20-30 yearly extensions)

-Below 50 years old: we don't want to hear about your money! Don't hope you can buy anything in your name besides a condomium unit.

-Father/mother below 50 years old: we don't even want to consider your case! Money is not the issue.

-Working with less than 65,000/m salary: run to the border every 3 months and renew your work permit every 3 months!

-Working without 4 Thai employees in your company (or your employer CO): same.

-Did I forget anything? Oh... Surely! Like volunteers and NGO workers: getting all the hassles of the world here!

SO I SAY:

1) MAKE IT EASIER FOR FOREIGNERS TO STAY LONG TERM IN THAILAND WHEN THEY HAVE VALID/INTERNATIONALY (in the West, OK) RECOGNIZED REASONS! (FULLY LEGALLY! No border runs and visa runs!)

2) MAKE IT HARDER FOR FAKE TOURISTS TO STAY LONG TERM IF YOU WANT!

I don't really care! (Sorry for the "fake tourists")

(I believe it is NOT economically logical! But UP TO YOU)

WELL. YOU DON'T WANT TO MAKE IT EASIER FOR LEGITIMATE FOLKS TO STAY LONG TERM?

THEN YOU MAY INDEED BE FORCED TO MAKE IT HARDER FOR YOUR PRECIOUS TOURISTS IN THE LAND OF SMILE! Som Nam Na!

Kick out flocks and herds of the facto "DESIRABLE" long term stayers and tourists -- to get rid of the UNDESIRABLE fake tourists abusing the system.

Throw the baby away with the bathwater!

(Up to you..........................)

BUT: AT ANY RATE: DON'T EXPECT TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM OF THE "UNDESIRABLES" MASQUERADING AS TOURISTS ANY DAY SOON IF YOU DON'T MAKE IT EASIER FOR LEGITIMATE FOLKS TO STAY LONG TERM.

BECAUSE: THEN :

The de facto long term residents WILL keep coming and they WILL keep staying under all the false pretences of "Tourists".

THE BOTTOM LINE IS: The undesirable foreigners will be mixed with the "desirables" (but non-integrated) foreigners in the very same boat as long as you don't come up with an organized and fair SYSTEM OF INTEGRATION AND EVEN ASSIMILATION of foreigners.

I say:

Instead of focusing on making it harder for fake tourists to stay, I REPEAT: MAKE IT EASIER FOR FOREIGNERS TO STAY LONG TERM IN THAILAND WHEN THEY HAVE VALID REASONS! They will stop playing tourists or showing up in flocks of other Non-Immigrants at the borders every 30, 60 or 90 days!

Edited December 18, 2006 by papakapbaan

[LaoPo]

Funnily enough, it was neither a lottery nor humiliating for my husband and I when we applied after we first got married. Oddly enough, we were both quite young, I had no job in the US, had just finished University and we planned on living with my parents and getting it was no huge difficulty. Lots of paperwork, yes, but eventually, because we qualified and my husband had no criminal record, it came through.

I often wonder how many people who have difficulties find they do so because they don't actually qualify?

Maybe so, sbk, and you were both fortunate.

The USA is not the same USA anymore since you married and that was quite some time ago. But you know better than me.

The US has become an unfriendly country to visit. The number of tourists is in sharp decline and even the number of business visitors is going down.

I read an article that the US ministry of tourism is talking now with Disney about HOW to stop this trend...

Not so long ago many Europeans were visiting the US for a holiday...not anymore.

I always enjoyed visiting the US untill some 10-12 years ago; I even built my own business in SF/California but it's no fun anymore since people do NOT enjoy handing over all their private information to the US authorities and waiting in line for hours once arriving at the airport(s) greeted by unfriendly customs/passport authorities asking (again) so many questions.

Sad but true.

LaoPo

What does a tourism decline in the US have to do with obtaining a visa? What role does Walt Disney play in the issuing of visas? What do new European holiday trends have to do with US visas? What does you thinking that the US is "no fun anymore" have to do with US visa policies??

Both you and the OP have obtained the visas that you're complaining it's too hard to obtain... was the paperwork THAT difficult?

BTW, there is no Ministry of Tourism in the US.

and customs officials are not meant to be friendly.

Sad but true.

My post was addressed to 'sbk', a well respected Moderator of TV, not you.

LaoPo

Pretty much sums up the brown nosing culture of Thaivisa there .... this is a forum Laopo so expect replies from the general populus when you post .... if you want exclusivity to a particular person then I suggest you PM him/her ... muppet !

This is indeed a forum. Everyone has the freedom to post or answer, including you and me.

Also, everyone has the freedom NOT to post or answer.

I choose the latter in this case if you don't mind.

I suppose the remark 'muppet' to my address was meant friendly ?

LaoPo

Edited December 18, 2006 by LaoPo

[lopburi3]

papakapbaan:

And I (mod hat on) am getting very tried of your shouting on this forum and advise you to cease now if you wish to continue posting here. If you do not understand it is the use of bold type and caps that you seem to resort to all too often.

I would be interested to know why you have not taken action to divorce your wife in all this time so that you can marry the mother of your child? That would seem to be to be a potential answer to your problems.

[papakapbaan]

I would be interested to know why you have not taken action to divorce your wife in all this time so that you can marry the mother of your child? That would seem to be to be a potential answer to your problems.

I would indeed prefer not to start any legal procedures to divorce my wife, at least not for the time being.

She is wealthy and clever. If "pushed", she might try some nefarious shemes.

You know: along the lines: "Thai girl trashed by Westerner".

(If anything, it's the complete reverse situation. But who knows......)

I am not ready to pay alimonies to this rich... hum...lady.

And, Sorry Lopuri! But if moderators did not delete the substance of my posts, you might have been able to read:

-It must be proved that the relationhsip ended at least 5 years ago.

Officially my wife and myself were still living in Belgium together until recently.

(I finally -recently- got a police report stating that she was not present at the address anymore...)

-She will be notified (first tracked down by the Belgian authorities) for sure. The "automated" procedure after 5 years is automated only to some extend...

[sbk]

Lao Po, I believe that 9/11 changed American immigration policies and attitudes, most likely irrevocably. Its a pity that the actions of a few nutcases could have such a far reaching effect, but when thousands are killed because of it, it makes the new attitudes more understandable.

As for papakapbahn, you have hijacked this thread with your own agenda. This thread is not about you or your problems, is it? The original discussion, was according to the OP about long-stay tourists and how they are now cracking down on people who, in other countries, would have been deported long ago. Please return to your own thread in regards to your own personal problems. And as for the constant use of bold and all caps, it is considered rude and shouting in forum life. Please, for the sake of polite behavior, cease to do so.

Back to the topic at hand, please.

[davidjtayler]

Funnily enough, it was neither a lottery nor humiliating for my husband and I when we applied after we first got married. Oddly enough, we were both quite young, I had no job in the US, had just finished University and we planned on living with my parents and getting it was no huge difficulty. Lots of paperwork, yes, but eventually, because we qualified and my husband had no criminal record, it came through.

I often wonder how many people who have difficulties find they do so because they don't actually qualify?

Maybe so, sbk, and you were both fortunate.

The USA is not the same USA anymore since you married and that was quite some time ago. But you know better than me.

The US has become an unfriendly country to visit. The number of tourists is in sharp decline and even the number of business visitors is going down.

I read an article that the US ministry of tourism is talking now with Disney about HOW to stop this trend...

Not so long ago many Europeans were visiting the US for a holiday...not anymore.

I always enjoyed visiting the US untill some 10-12 years ago; I even built my own business in SF/California but it's no fun anymore since people do NOT enjoy handing over all their private information to the US authorities and waiting in line for hours once arriving at the airport(s) greeted by unfriendly customs/passport authorities asking (again) so many questions.

Sad but true.

LaoPo

What does a tourism decline in the US have to do with obtaining a visa? What role does Walt Disney play in the issuing of visas? What do new European holiday trends have to do with US visas? What does you thinking that the US is "no fun anymore" have to do with US visa policies??

Both you and the OP have obtained the visas that you're complaining it's too hard to obtain... was the paperwork THAT difficult?

BTW, there is no Ministry of Tourism in the US.

and customs officials are not meant to be friendly.

Sad but true.

My post was addressed to 'sbk', a well respected Moderator of TV, not you.

LaoPo

Pretty much sums up the brown nosing culture of Thaivisa there .... this is a forum Laopo so expect replies from the general populus when you post .... if you want exclusivity to a particular person then I suggest you PM him/her ... muppet !

This is indeed a forum. Everyone has the freedom to post or answer, including you and me.

Also, everyone has the freedom NOT to post or answer.

I choose the latter in this case if you don't mind.

I suppose the remark 'muppet' to my address was meant friendly ?

LaoPo

That's up to you if you wish to ignore or not respond to a post but it's disrespectful to

disregard specific posts in public ... if you don't wish to respond then don't respond, simple.

To call someone a muppet is a term of endearment as muppets are by nature none aggressive

furry colourful things...

Anyway we digress from the subject of this thread and we must always keep the thread on topic.

As I said earlier, if you read my previous post, it's not all bad news this visa lark ...

[kiakaha]

Why do threads on this site always degrade into pissing fights.I mean seriously...some of you need to grow up or meet face to face to settle your issues like men.

[papakapbaan]

As for papakapbahn, you have hijacked this thread with your own agenda. This thread is not about you or your problems, is it?

Oh Gosh!

1) If you mean my answer above: I was answering to a question of lopburi3 posted right here in this thread.

Where/how I am supposed to answer, then?

2) If you mean my contribution above (say diatribe if you want) it's not at all a personal agenda :-0

I first visited Thailand in 1993. And since 1996 I hold the same views about the obviously xenophobic immigration policies of this country.

My personal problems (no divorce, "illegitimate" child) started just about 2.5 years ago.

Anyway the post is clearly not personal. (Or do you mean the one line "LET ME ADD" and the link? I don't think it's abuse).

SBK: My Thai wife got a Belgian ID card after living 1 year in Belgium. When will you have permanent residency in Thailand?

(It IS the topic at hand. The OP and fellow rich Asian boys complain here that they do not easily get tourist visas to countries where tourists are not really welcome. I complain that we Farangs don't easily achieve permanent status (100% legal) in Thailand, where immigrants are NOT welcome at all. If people start comparisons, why not extend the scope...)

BTW: with respect: please realize that from the point of view of the Thai authorities: you are basically not welcome here SBK, you are just tolerated, like every one of us "foreign spouses".They do their mind more easily because you are a woman. (So you may have a tiny chance to be granted permanent residency one day).

Edited December 18, 2006 by papakapbaan

[Roger Dodger]

Why do threads on this site always degrade into pissing fights.I mean seriously...some of you need to grow up or meet face to face to settle your issues like men.

Excellent suggestion!

Thaivisa Fight Club!

Sign up now!

HEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHEHE

[Heng]

No, I disagree. This subject has come up more than a few times, and the numbers clearly show what sectors compose the Thai economy. Feel free to google and search, I'm not going to do it for you. Tourist dollars are important and with relatively low cost in terms of ROI, is more than welcome, but again not needed.

Heng:

I'm like you, not really interested in this never ending debate...

I will just say that whoever does not recognize the MAJOR IMPORTANCE OF TOURISM INCOME AND INCOME FROM LONG TERM FOREIGN RESIDENTS

No doubt it's important. My point was merely that it's a want and not a need. There's a branch of my family that builds and sells homes to a customer base that is at least 50% foreign (all nationalities). They'd certainly feel a pinch if this base was taken away. But it'd be just that, a painful pinch. Hardly the end of the world. We're certainly not about to protest in front of gov't house about it or anything.

The question is not really whether Thailand as a country, macro-economically, would survive or not without the same (a similar) level of tourism income as it is collecting now.

Sure, it would. And in a reasonably good economic shape.

Yes, I agree (as it was my point original again).

So you may want to ask yourself: What source of revenues do you have in Thailand THAT IS IN ANY LONG TERM POSITION OF STRENGTH BESIDES TOURISM?

(As far as I am amware. I will admit I am not very versed in the Thai economy but I believe the general picture as follows is correct)

I agree that you are likely not well versed, and neither am I. I'm not in a position to speculate as to the long term positions of any sector, I am only aware vicariously through my own business experiences and that of previous discussions on this board that have ended with better economically versed parties making references to non-tourism based sectors as the core of the Thai economy.

Personally a good portion of my business IS dependent on agricultural exports and local consumption, both on the export and import side. I'm fortunate enough (by choice) to have picked an export product whose source in the world is rougly 97% from Thailand (the other 3% from Hawaii). Hopefully this imbalance of supply will continue into the future (as to how long term that position will be, one can only speculate). Less important but still fairly valuable is my import section that brings in fish and shrimp feed, mostly started as a mere forex hedge but still fed by healthy local demand (IMO for the foreseeable future as well: at least until the locals stop farming shrimp and fish; it'll be good for business as well if human nature continues to overpopulate the planet).

It is obvious, the businesses you mention account for a huge portion of the economic activity of many cities/areas of Thailand.

In tourist areas, we are talking about a NEED for tourism income.

Naturally. I do agree with you there. It's the same way that the local poultry industry is dependent on poultry.

So you don't seem to be too concerned in your line of business??

I have another feeling about the economic situation in Thailand: you may soon find an increase of bad loans in your books.

Actually, that section of my business tends to prosper both when the economy goes up AND when the economy dives (to a certain extent). When it's up, people come to us to finance their consumption needs.... when it's down, people come to us to finance their inability to manage their own finances. When they are at the end of their rope (which actually is quite rare) and ready to default, we end up with their land as collateral. I'd love to expand into a franchise like EZ Pawn in the US, but the gov't isn't issuing any more licenses, so we can only increase our income by continually increasing our capital.

Edited December 18, 2006 by Heng

[marcel.dekorte]

Hello,

I totally agree with this point of view. For half a year I am trying to get my Thai girlfriend to Holland for just a one-month-holiday. Of course she can stay at my place and I will pay all her costs, including her ticket from Bangkok-Amsterdam-Bangkok.

I have send the right documents from her (and me) to the Dutch Immigration Office in The Haque. Some of these papers also proof that I earn more than enough money to look after her. But the Immigration Service ....... refused to give a visa to my girlfriend, because 'the risk is to high that she will stay in the Netherlands.'

My lawyer (specialized in this sort of things) is now working out the right procedure. But he declared that I have taken the right steps. In the meantime I feel ashamed, that I can come and go whenever I will in Thailand and my lovely girlfriend cannot cross any Farang-border. Because I live in a little xenophobic fourth world country.

Kind regards,

Marcel

[papakapbaan]

Actually, that section of my business tends to prosper both when the economy goes up AND when the economy dives (to a certain extent). When it's up, people come to us to finance their consumption needs.... when it's down, people come to us to finance their inability to manage their own finances. When they are at the end of their rope (which actually is quite rare) and ready to default, we end up with their land as collateral. I'd love to expand into a franchise like EZ Pawn in the US, but the gov't isn't issuing any more licenses, so we can only increase our income by continually increasing our capital.

Heng: Ok, I will just say I had a superficial (WRONG) idea of your "line of business", then.

Good for you if you are "diversified"!

I note you can't resist a bit of sarcasm and contempt:

I said: In tourist areas, we are talking about a NEED for tourism income.

And you:

Naturally. I do agree with you there. It's the same way that the local poultry industry is dependent on poultry.

As I read it, your "remark" illustrates a serious problem in Thailand. Large fractions of the Thai favored/ruling classes do not care much (at all?) about the rest of the Thai population.

I believe that an exodus of Farangs in 2007 (We don't know. Could REALLY happen soon) may well spell social and political troubles in Thailand, Heng.

Directly (rallies are fashionable nowadays in Thailand...) or indirectly: increase in crimes etc.

Even if you and the ruling classes are not directly affected economically.

The ruling classes should be careful not to infuriate the masses at a very difficult junction for Thai society.

(I found it "amusing" but I recently met Thai people talking about a revolution...)

(Well. Not so odd after a coup d'etat!)

This is surely a strange time for the implementation of new drastic immigration laws with largely unpredictable effets. It definitely seems to be more "ideological" than carefully thought-out.

Edited December 18, 2006 by papakapbaan

[LaoPo]

Hello,

I totally agree with this point of view. For half a year I am trying to get my Thai girlfriend to Holland for just a one-month-holiday. Of course she can stay at my place and I will pay all her costs, including her ticket from Bangkok-Amsterdam-Bangkok.

I have send the right documents from her (and me) to the Dutch Immigration Office in The Haque. Some of these papers also proof that I earn more than enough money to look after her. But the Immigration Service ....... refused to give a visa to my girlfriend, because 'the risk is to high that she will stay in the Netherlands.'

My lawyer (specialized in this sort of things) is now working out the right procedure. But he declared that I have taken the right steps. In the meantime I feel ashamed, that I can come and go whenever I will in Thailand and my lovely girlfriend cannot cross any Farang-border. Because I live in a little xenophobic fourth world country.

Kind regards,

Marcel

Marcel: many (Dutch) people with loved ones from outside the so-called 'Western' countries (like USA, Australia and even, odd enough, Japan) are extremely frustrated about the Dutch laws.

Dutch immigration laws are the toughest in the EU as far as I know.

Applying for a touristvisa for your girlfriend is one thing....wait untill you try to get a (semi)-permanent visa for her. She will be forced to study the basics of Dutch language in Thailand and do an exam on the Embassy BEFORE you/she can apply for a -semi-permanent visa !

Dutch citizens are discriminated by their own government since other EU-citizens are allowed to move to Holland and live there with their partner (non-Western; thus also Thai) because once they move to another EU-country they become EU-citizen but the Dutch themselves are expelled from that EU-rule, wich in fact is absurd.

The only 'easy' (...) way is to move to another EU-country, register and live there (and thus become a EU-citizen) and ask your girlfriend to come over (to that country, like Germany, France, Belgium or Spain for instance) and move back to Holland after 6 months.

She and you will have no further problems, settling down, WITHOUT following the rediculous immigration laws.

LaoPo

Edited December 18, 2006 by LaoPo

[Heng]

Actually, that section of my business tends to prosper both when the economy goes up AND when the economy dives (to a certain extent). When it's up, people come to us to finance their consumption needs.... when it's down, people come to us to finance their inability to manage their own finances. When they are at the end of their rope (which actually is quite rare) and ready to default, we end up with their land as collateral. I'd love to expand into a franchise like EZ Pawn in the US, but the gov't isn't issuing any more licenses, so we can only increase our income by continually increasing our capital.

Heng: Ok, I will just say I had a superficial (WRONG) idea of your "line of business", then.

Good for you if you are "diversified"!

I note you can't resist a bit of sarcasm and contempt:

I said: In tourist areas, we are talking about a NEED for tourism income.

And you:

Naturally. I do agree with you there. It's the same way that the local poultry industry is dependent on poultry.

As I read it, your "remark" illustrates a serious problem in Thailand. Large fractions of the Thai favored/ruling classes do not care much (at all?) about the rest of the Thai population.

I believe that an exodus of Farangs in 2007 (We don't know. Could REALLY happen soon) may well spell social and political troubles in Thailand, Heng.

Directly (rallies are fashionable nowadays in Thailand...) or indirectly: increase in crimes etc.

Even if you and the ruling classes are not directly affected economically.

The ruling classes should be careful not to infuriate the masses at a very difficult junction for Thai society.

(I found it "amusing" but I recently met Thai people talking about a revolution...)

(Well. Not so odd after a coup d'etat!)

This is surely a strange time for the implementation of new drastic immigration laws with largely unpredictable effets. It definitely seems to be more "ideological" than carefully thought-out.

Actually, my remark only illustrates that I am in a good mood and sometimes a bit sarcastic, whatever the topic.

As for various classes "caring" for each other or not, as always, I suggest for the well to do, middle classes, AND the poor to take care of their own families, businesses, farms, problems, etc. before they expect others to do so.

[adjan jb]

Even with our "complete documents" and proof that we are only going to visit your countries, your embassies deny us outright. We just take it with a grain of salt, accept that it's "your" country's "right and prerogative", and accept and admit that many of our fellow Asians decide to overstay in your countries to find illegal work, ... and so we just accept the USA visa denial.

Despite this, I've never heard of Farangs complaining that legitimate Asian tourists have a hard time getting visas in the West.

While I agree with your post. I think you didn't listen hard enough. I know of several Frenchmen who filed complaints after their wives or GF were refused a visa, even with all the documents required. No explanation given.

As far as I'm concerned, I had an argument with the staff at the French consulate a few years ago after my (ex) GF was refused a visa. I wanted to know why but couldn't get an explanation. "I don't have to elaborate" said the vice (?) consul. They almost called the security guards.

[junkofdavid2]

Even with our "complete documents" and proof that we are only going to visit your countries, your embassies deny us outright. We just take it with a grain of salt, accept that it's "your" country's "right and prerogative", and accept and admit that many of our fellow Asians decide to overstay in your countries to find illegal work, ... and so we just accept the USA visa denial.

Despite this, I've never heard of Farangs complaining that legitimate Asian tourists have a hard time getting visas in the West.

While I agree with your post. I think you didn't listen hard enough. I know of several Frenchmen who filed complaints after their wives or GF were refused a visa, even with all the documents required. No explanation given.

As far as I'm concerned, I had an argument with the staff at the French consulate a few years ago after my (ex) GF was refused a visa. I wanted to know why but couldn't get an explanation. "I don't have to elaborate" said the vice (?) consul. They almost called the security guards.

Point taken. Good to know.

[drummer]

If you want to talk about the outflow of wealth and assets + investment in one's local environment: given the nature (broad generalization alert, and it varies of course) of Asian cultures vs. western cultures, this results in an outflow of wealth and assets from western countries more than it does from Asian countries.

Actually, I'd expect that in the last 200 years the outflow of wealth has benefitted Europe - colonialism really had a way of doing that. For example, after Hernan Cortes conquored Mexico City, he sent 7 thousand tons of silver to Europe and more than one thousand tons of gold. Thats more than double what all of Europe had. And where is Mexico today?

Of course, Thailand itself was never colonized, so I guess thats a bit of a tangent.

Also, the US is importing TRILLIONS in loans, laregly from Asia. But I guess this doesn't cuont, either.

[CRUNCHER]

Papakapbaan - Quote(BTW HENG, WHO CAN NOT SEE IT? THE XENOPHOBIA, the morbid fear of the white foreigner, of the round eyes............)unquote

The X word again. If a country introduces immigration policies that it believes it needs is xenophobic then just about every country in the world is xenophobic.

What is more I do not think that specific skin colour or shape of eyes has anything to do with the definition of xenophobia.

On the other hand coments like yours, in the way that they are made could be considered racist even xenophobic.

Edited December 19, 2006 by CRUNCHER

[drummer]

Additionally, LOS has the most inhumane VISA rules for married couples. In the US and EU, if you are married to locals it is as easy as pie to get a VISA to stay with your family. In LOS, they treat you like dirt... WHAT A SHAME!

You should spend some time reading the followig threads : Visas and migration to other countries

Then come back and read your statement that it is easy to get visa to US and EU

it is not easy it is either a lottery or a humiliating experience they have to got through

I assure you it is niether, Krub. As a farang married to a Thai, I still have to do border runs. I can't buy land, I can't get a job without the work permit process (I can't take any job a Thai can do, and they company actually has to go through all the paperwork+expense)

We are currently applying for a spousal visa for my wife, which will go through. It is a lot of paperwork, and it takes a few months, true. But when she gets it she will be able to dow hat she wants. She can become an American if she wants. This is something I wouldn't never be able to do in Thailand - whether I could obtain a passport or not.

You have made this comment before, and it is starting to sound like sour grapes after a percieved loss of face more than anything. It is clearly not a lottery (or do you posit that a rice worker from Khorat has the same chance of getting a tourist visa as you? )

Edited December 19, 2006 by drummer

[drummer]

This is surely a strange time for the implementation of new drastic immigration laws with largely unpredictable effets. It definitely seems to be more "ideological" than carefully thought-out.

It is the most natural of times! Thats when most ideologically driven changes occur - at the hands of the new rulers.

Interesting discussion. The only thing I have to say is that took the estimated numbers of European longstay "tourists" and calculated their cumulative income - the conservative estimate came to 0.5% of the Thai GDP. That is Europeans only. No, its not a need, but it is a lot. That is the longstayer, not the real tourist. Most of their money is spent in 'non-tourist' sectors.

It is my feeling that the financial impact of the longstayer is higher than many expect (although hardly the only reason Thailand is doing better than its war-wracked neighbors)

[drummer]

As far as the topic at hand, I'd like to add my 2 satang that the US+Europe generally have a better working system. First, if you are a tourist you should apply for a tourist visa. If you are an immirant you apply for an immirgant visa. The US doesn't want a lot of tourists (especially after 9-11) so it makes it really hard to get in. I think this is stupid, but still it is what it is (thanks, Bush). Also, tourists are a liability for illegal immigration. The key here is that there are reasonable options available for those who want to immigrate legally.

Thailand, like it has been said before, has a broken system. They want to keep all the immigrants out, while keeping all the tourists in. It is not fair, it impractable and inconsistent.

Comparing one tourist visa to another directly isn't accurate because Thailand encourages all tourism and the US generally discourages international tourism - apparantly there is a new system to discourage Americans from going abroad. Thanks, Bush!

[Krub]

Additionally, LOS has the most inhumane VISA rules for married couples. In the US and EU, if you are married to locals it is as easy as pie to get a VISA to stay with your family. In LOS, they treat you like dirt... WHAT A SHAME!

You should spend some time reading the followig threads : Visas and migration to other countries

Then come back and read your statement that it is easy to get visa to US and EU

it is not easy it is either a lottery or a humiliating experience they have to got through

I assure you it is niether, Krub. As a farang married to a Thai, I still have to do border runs. I can't buy land, I can't get a job without the work permit process (I can't take any job a Thai can do, and they company actually has to go through all the paperwork+expense)

We are currently applying for a spousal visa for my wife, which will go through. It is a lot of paperwork, and it takes a few months, true. But when she gets it she will be able to dow hat she wants. She can become an American if she wants. This is something I wouldn't never be able to do in Thailand - whether I could obtain a passport or not.

You have made this comment before, and it is starting to sound like sour grapes after a percieved loss of face more than anything. It is clearly not a lottery (or do you posit that a rice worker from Khorat has the same chance of getting a tourist visa as you? )

I wish you alll the best for your wife's visa and hope she gets it without difficulties.

The lottery and humiliating experience I refewr to is what I know first hand (from different western embassies in different asian countries) and is also largely reflected in the forum dedicated to getting visas to the west for asians.

The consulate staff have the power to say yes and no without recourse as it is virtually impossible for anybody to prove beyond doubt that they will return to their home country (lottery). Some make them queue up for hours without knowing if they wiuld even get to aply that day (humiliating). Only 2 simple examples going on on a daily basis

[brahmburgers]

within 2 days my wife had a 10 year multi tourist visa ... so it's not all bad news

When will Thailand offer something like a '10 year multi tourist visa' to farang married to Thai? ...or better yet, not discriminate based on whether a farang is married or not. Can't there be modicum of common sense in the equation? How about Thai immigration dept. set up a program for assessing each individual's qualifications. I think part of the reason is they're unsure of their English-speaking abilities (99% are uncomfortable talking with us on a serious subject), and their culture-based assumption that everyone lies (or at least bends the rules, or offers bribes) to get what they want.

[CRUNCHER]

within 2 days my wife had a 10 year multi tourist visa ... so it's not all bad news

When will Thailand offer something like a '10 year multi tourist visa' to farang married to Thai? ...or better yet, not discriminate based on whether a farang is married or not. Can't there be modicum of common sense in the equation? How about Thai immigration dept. set up a program for assessing each individual's qualifications. I think part of the reason is they're unsure of their English-speaking abilities (99% are uncomfortable talking with us on a serious subject), and their culture-based assumption that everyone lies (or at least bends the rules, or offers bribes) to get what they want.

I would be intersted to know what the 10 year multi tourist visa to US actually provides. Does it give the right to stay permanenly for 10 years? Does it give the right to work? What proof of financial status is required. It has been many years since I applied for a US visa and things have changed. One thing I had to provide was documentry proof that I was not going to stay permanently in US. I provided a letter from my employer giving details of my terms of employment, my wifes employment and my childrens schooling arrangements. In other words would a similar visa for Thailand be of use to a farang married to a Thai?

Unfortunately there has been a world wide trend in recent years to show little sympathy to granting residency to spouses. The UK is one of the leaders in this respect. It is certainly one area where the Thai authorities could, and should show some flexibility. My wife is not Thai so I do not have this problem. A system which separates families is not healthy.

For the rest I do not think the Thai authorities are doing much wrong.