British PM May to reject Scottish referendum demand - Times newspaper

[citybiker]

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[citybiker]

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[citybiker]

@Mods

It appears my post has had a multiple echo effect, excuse for this and could it be adjusted please?


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[citybiker]

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[citybiker]

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[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, JAG said:

Now look again at what I said why don't you. I was clearly referring to tax hikes and austerity measures which would be required to achieve any fiscal viability after independence. That means that they would have to be applied on top of whatever austerity or taxes are applied at present.

You sound like you think that the route that Westminster is taking is the correct and appropriate one for correcting the fiscal deficit. Without wishing to sound like Citizen Smith, the tories have  chosen to place the entire burden of righting our very leaky ship of a country on the working classes.

 

While the Scottish government are already taking measures within their remit - freezing council expenditure, adjusting income tax brackets, etc., an independent Scotland will not be obliged to follow the same destructive route that the Tories are hell bent on following. Only yesterday at their conference they agreed to adopt an amendment to tax undeveloped land, a problem that Scotland has where vast areas are owned by faceless shell companies in the Bahamas. We are already attracting a greater share of UK FDI per head of population than the rest of the country. The growth rate for FDI projects in Scotland in 2015, for example, was more than double the UK as a whole.

 

So a Scottish answer does not need to be simply a furtherance of the transfer of assets from the majority, but a much more egalitarian approach that aims to create value, not slash services.

 

19 minutes ago, JAG said:

I was spat at in Dundee and roundly abused in Glasgow, on both occasions because of my English accent. If Scotland goes alone it will have at the very most a marginal effect on the part of England I call home.

This, I have no answer to other than it saddens me to read that. It also confuses me massively, because I have never in my life witnessed anything like it. I have many English friends who live in Scotland and have never heard them talk of experiences like that. I am not disputing your words, but it simply is not something I can conceive because it is not something I have ever seen first hand or heard of from my friends.

[RuamRudy]

9 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Medoiocre Country?

Excuse me, that's is complete and utter tosh.

Well tell me - in what contemporary way are we exceptional as a country? Mediocrity is not a slur, it is simply a fact. There is nothing about having a British passport that makes you better than those with Spanish or Swiss or Thai passports: there is no such thing as British exceptionalism.

 

10 minutes ago, citybiker said:

Nobody is saying 6 million are unable to survive however the nationalists Politicians are deluded & betraying the UK as a whole.

How is this betrayal manifesting itself? The UK is not an ancient relic that has to be protected and revered at all cost. It served a purpose in the past, and all parties benefitted from that arrangement, but now an increasing number of people are recognising that the benefits are no longer there, and that dissolution would be in the best interests for all parties.

 

14 minutes ago, citybiker said:

generalising English bashing & the equal nationalist's arrogance is showing its true unpleasant colours.

Please highlight the exact sentence I used to bash England.

 

 

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, rockingrobin said:

£170 billion debt, please elaborate

The UK Government debt is now touted as 1.7 trillion pounds. I think Scotland's cut is around 10% of that.  It remains UK debt.  Scotland could walk away of course, but it would be an absolute pariah on the world's market, and I can't imagine UK doing anything other than exacting extreme revenge.

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

The UK Government debt is now touted as 1.7 trillion pounds. I think Scotland's cut is around 10% of that.  It remains UK debt.  Scotland could walk away of course, but it would be an absolute pariah on the world's market, and I can't imagine UK doing anything other than exacting extreme revenge.

 

I haven't checked the numbers so I will take your word for it, but think that you are right about the principle, and nobody would seriously expect an independent Scotland not to take on its share of the burden. I think it was only ever raised as a foil against the suggestion that we would not be allowed to use the pound or be entitled to a share of our collective assets.

 

[mommysboy]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

A betrayal of whom, exactly? What do we owe the UK that would behove us to remain wedded to it irrevocably?

 

It is a betrayal. Scotland commited to a once and for all referendum.  On the back of that UK proceeded with inclusivity, which this year alone has meant bankrolling extra debt.  Then there are investment projects.

 

Betrayal, perhaps that's a bit strong, but at this time any other word fails.

[citybiker]

I'll refrain from any Pedantic narrative contribution.

It only lower's the tone & the debate M.O. of attempting to find a unbiased balance.


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[citybiker]

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[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

It is a betrayal. Scotland commited to a once and for all referendum.  On the back of that UK proceeded with inclusivity, which this year alone has meant bankrolling extra debt.  Then there are investment projects.

 

Betrayal, perhaps that's a bit strong, but at this time any other word fails.

But you still have not elaborated - a betrayal of whom? The UK is an agreement, an ancient piece of paper - nothing more. Are you saying that we are betraying a piece of paper written 300 years ago?

 

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

On the back of that UK proceeded with inclusivity, which this year alone has meant bankrolling extra debt.  Then there are investment projects.

 

We also invested into the exchequer that doled out the money to pay for these projects, and we will assume our share of the debt for them when we depart.

While we are on infrastructure, you may want to look into how regional development budgets are devised among the regions. Also, look into National Infrastructure Projects - the ones that we all pay for, but are not considered when the regional spending is doled out. Scots, Welsh and NI tax payers, for example, paid a proportinate share of the cost of the London olympics, but that expenditure wasn't reflected in their regional grants. Similarly, HS2 is a NIP - we all pay for it, but the benefit is solely England.

[citybiker]

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[citybiker]

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[mommysboy]

6 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I haven't checked the numbers so I will take your word for it, but think that you are right about the principle, and nobody would seriously expect an independent Scotland not to take on its share of the burden. I think it was only ever raised as a foil against the suggestion that we would not be allowed to use the pound or be entitled to a share of our collective assets.

 

 

Let's be quite clear, a debt is a debt.  It can't be used as a bargaining tool to obtain further assets or favour, or things that Scotland is not entitled to.

 

The BoE- well it may have some assets that UK retains, just as Scotland retains what is on Scottish soil, but essentially it is nothing more than a bank and regulator.  It belongs to the UK.  No other country can use it. 

 

Scotland, as an independent country, would need to establish its own central bank, and issue its own currency.  To do anything other makes a mockery of the whole idea of independence, and is any case simply not doable.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, citybiker said:

I'll refrain from any Pedantic narrative contribution.

I am sorry, but you accused me of:

 

44 minutes ago, citybiker said:

yet again more generalising English bashing & the equal nationalist's arrogance is showing its true unpleasant colours.

Now either you can back it up or please withdraw it.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Let's be quite clear, a debt is a debt.  It can't be used as a bargaining tool to obtain further assets or favour, or things that Scotland is not entitled to.

 

The BoE- well it may have some assets that UK retains, just as Scotland retains what is on Scottish soil, but essentially it is nothing more than a bank and regulator.  It belongs to the UK.  No other country can use it. 

 

Scotland, as an independent country, would need to establish its own central bank, and issue its own currency.  To do anything other makes a mockery of the whole idea of independence, and is any case simply not doable.

Not further assets, but a fair and equitable share of the UK's current assets as it would its liabilities - as simple as that. During the 2014 referendum, for instance, there was talk of all naval ships being sailed south, no access to UK embassies around the world etc. That was, I believe, the origins of that particular issue.

[mommysboy]

17 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Not further assets, but a fair and equitable share of the UK's current assets as it would its liabilities - as simple as that. During the 2014 referendum, for instance, there was talk of all naval ships being sailed south, no access to UK embassies around the world etc. That was, I believe, the origins of that particular issue.

 

It's a complex issue.  If Scotland were to assume claim over UK assets, then in order for it to be fair UK would have claim over Scottish assets, eg, oil revenues.

 

I agree Scotland has a stake in just about everything British, but the principle applies contrariwise.

 

In effect, it becomes obvious what is Scotland's is what sits there in Scotland as a fixed asset I guess.

 

I don't know how this is to be done fairly.

 

The general rule in a divorce is that both partners become that much poorer, as it is not possible to cut one big cake in to two big cakes.

 

There will be watery eyes on both sides, as cherished assets disappear.

 

And double costs- the setting up of Scottish emabassies for instance.

 

UK Gov is unlikely to want to help, anymore than any deserted partner would.

 

I fear Rudy, that after the celebrations, you will be in for an awful shock.

Edited March 19, 2017 by mommysboy
spelling

[rockingrobin]

30 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

 

Let's be quite clear, a debt is a debt.  It can't be used as a bargaining tool to obtain further assets or favour, or things that Scotland is not entitled to.

 

The BoE- well it may have some assets that UK retains, just as Scotland retains what is on Scottish soil, but essentially it is nothing more than a bank and regulator.  It belongs to the UK.  No other country can use it. 

 

Scotland, as an independent country, would need to establish its own central bank, and issue its own currency.  To do anything other makes a mockery of the whole idea of independence, and is any case simply not doable.

As for currency the EU was unable to prevent Montenegro using the euro

[IMA_FARANG]

What happens if the Scots want in their own interest to REMAIN in the European Union and Britain leaves the European Union via a Brexit

Can Scotland then hold a referendum to LEAVE the U.K. and rejoin the EU as  a separate Scotts nation?

The mind boggles at the possibilities.

 

[mommysboy]

3 minutes ago, rockingrobin said:

As for currency the EU was unable to prevent Montenegro using the euro

Yes, any country can use whatever currency it chooses.  It simply buys in to that currency and deals in it. There are American countries that trade in the US dollar for instance. But these are poor countries and little more than domains.  Scotland is an advanced nation, with 6 million folk.

 

Once established, Scotland needs to service and renew it's debt by issuing bonds.  In order to do this it needs a central bank and its own currency.  Without one, Scotland would fall in to dissolution within weeks.  Central banks also regulate money supply and set interest rates. This is key policy. 

 

One of the reasons Italy and France are in a mire, is because they can not devalue their currency in order to properly reflect the value of their goods and services.  Greece got in to an awful mess because it effectively got a fabulously extravagent deal when it traded in the Drachma for the Euro, and an unwise credit limit to go with it.

 

 

[redwinecheese]

Brexit= lone sheep at greater danger

[Grouse]

2 hours ago, mommysboy said:

The UK Government debt is now touted as 1.7 trillion pounds. I think Scotland's cut is around 10% of that.  It remains UK debt.  Scotland could walk away of course, but it would be an absolute pariah on the world's market, and I can't imagine UK doing anything other than exacting extreme revenge.

Be interesting to see how TM balances UK debts to EU with Scotlands debt to U.K.!

[evadgib]

Tell them to get on with it but do so in the same timeframe as a general election ie by the 30th of April. Failure to do so at such short notice would allow HMG to bluntly shelve the matter until after the natl/local elections in 2021 which in turn will enable everyone to concentrate on leaving the EU as per the democratic will of the entire union inc the noisy bit feigning injustice at every opportunity to the North.

 

I'll check the petitions website shortly to see if anyone has suggested giving the rest of UK a vote to evict the Scots from the union. After all their incessant whining this would have done it at the first attempt.

 

For the record my position has always been that both sides are better off in a United Kingdom but i'll be glad to see the back of the 'professional victims' calling themselves the SNP.

 

 

Edited March 19, 2017 by evadgib

[7by7]

3 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Please highlight the exact sentence I used to bash England.

 

8 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Some English people seem to think that Scottish independence is a betrayal of their country, or that it is arrogance because we want to stand on our own two feet. And you suggest that we are delusional? You seem think that you are so important to the picture that a country of almost 6 million people cannot survive without you? Get real and get some perspective

 Just the latest example.

[RuamRudy]

5 minutes ago, 7by7 said:

 

 Just the latest example.

How is this bashing England? My point is not an attack on any country, and not even an attack on the people who say that we are traitors - I merely point out that they see us as traitors because we want to leave the UK. My point where I used the highlighted and italicised you was directed at the OP. If you feel that this is an attack on your country and its people then I cannot help you, but I think you do need help.

 

You (as in 7by7) seem to be obsessed with finding any and every opportunity to criticise me in the most pathetic ways possible. I really do not have the ability to fathom you out - I read most of your post with utter bewilderment as I try to understand just what it is that drives you to behave in this manner. If you lived next door to me I would be seriously worried because you seem unhinged. Please put my profile on your ignore list because I find nothing constructive to any of the interactions we have had.