British PM May to reject Scottish referendum demand - Times newspaper

[transam]

16 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

Can you please elaborate on the Anti-English sentiment? Anti Tory I will accept, but I am yet to hear a convincing argument that Scottish independence is driven by Anti-English sentiment.

You reckon........

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, transam said:

You reckon........

I am willing to listen - just show me the evidence.

[transam]

4 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I am willing to listen - just show me the evidence.

So you want to hear stuff I have heard through my long life...........?.......Gawd

 

Even NOW I have put up with Scot folks innuendoes in LOS...Perhaps fun, I don't know, but for sure this English chap doesn't do similar stuff...

 

 

 

 

 

[Grouse]

9 minutes ago, transam said:

You reckon........

I think there is anti Westminster sentiment in Scotland since the evil Buchanan infected the Thatcher government with game theory and destroyed altruism. The North of England felt much the same until it took the apple offered by UKIP and became poisoned. EU is better for Scotland than UK ( even if it's EFTA !).

 

I actually do believe in altruism and philanthropy. Otherwise what's the point? The one with the most toys at the end wins? <deleted>!

[mommysboy]

2 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

I need to bookmark the below page because it seems that there is an almost endless queue of misinformed people who happily repeat the same incorrect story.

 

Jose-Manuel Garcia-Margallo, [Spain's] foreign minister, told the Financial Times: "If Scotland becomes independent in accordance with the legal and institutional procedures, it will ask for admission [to the EU]. If that process has indeed been legal, that request can be considered."

Hardly a ringing endorsement!  "that request can be considered".  That is a long stretch from saying yes.

[sidgy]

 
So it was Facebook and not the SNP site? An important distinction, I hope you will agree, and glad we can set that straight.
 
But I agree with you, any anti-anyone slur is deplorable, and if any anti-english sentiment is expressed I denounce it unreservedly. However, in my experience (and I am a keen observer of Scottish independence) any such sentiment is quickly shot down by the majority of people who feel as I do, that such sentiment is unacceptable and has no place in Scotland.

The page belongs to the SNP, the SNP put up the posts so their Facebook followers and indeed their own M.P's can read and comment. I agree in part the SNP cannot be held responsible for all the comments posted,but you asked for examples of the anti English sentiment and there it is, if you care to look,


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

[RuamRudy]

1 minute ago, transam said:

So you want to hear stuff I have heard through my long life...........?.......Gawd

 

Even NOW I have put up with Scot folks innuendoes in LOS...Perhaps fun, I don't know, but for sure this English chap doesn't do similar stuff...

 

I don't want to dismiss what you heard, but would it be any different to the banter I have heard throughout my life from my English friends and colleagues? I think that human nature is to poke fun at those that are different from us, but there is no mainstream Scottish Independence movement similar in nature to the EDL or SDL that I know of.

 

Of course, there are some nutters like Sìol nan Gàidheal who are roundly ostracised by the mainstream independence supporters, and the SNP prohibits its members from joining it. However as an entity they are almost non-existent. I know nobody who is involved with them or even interested in them.

[RuamRudy]

2 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Hardly a ringing endorsement!  "that request can be considered".  That is a long stretch from saying yes.

While nothing is certain, it clearly isn't the hard and non-negotiable veto that people repeatedly claim the Spanish will invoke.

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

Interesting that you use the word subservient! A Freudian slip?

Nope! You reading more in to it that than is necessary. Now, that is' Freudian'.

[RuamRudy]

3 minutes ago, sidgy said:

The page belongs to the SNP, the SNP put up the posts so their Facebook followers and indeed their own M.P's can read and comment. I agree in part the SNP cannot be held responsible for all the comments posted,but you asked for examples of the anti English sentiment and there it is, if you care to look,


Sent from my iPad using Thaivisa Connect

 

I don't dispute for a second that there are @rseholes who discredit the independence movement with their nonsense, small minded crap, just like there are those who are happy to dish out the opposite abuse towards Scots. I don't believe that anti-English sentiment is substantial, just like I don't believe that the majority of English hate the Scots.

 

Without wishing to come across all Trump like, there are also the means and the will for organisations within and outwith the government to create bots that automatically generate such garbage to discredit their opposition. This sounds tinfoil hat stuff, but it is a clear tactic used elsewhere.

[Grouse]

4 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Nope! You reading more in to it that than is necessary. Now, that is' Freudian'.

Subordinate!

[mommysboy]

4 hours ago, Grouse said:

I'm interested to note the amount of bile still pouring from some of the regular English contributors.

 

I would have thought they would be keen to uphold democracy generally.

 

Obviously Brexit is a major change in the status quo ante.

 

I was pro keeping the UK together back in 2014. But that was before Brexit and, crucially, before witnessing the contempt with which May and her blessed Con Party treat the Scots.

 

I truly believe Scottish society generally is closer to European social democracy rather than Westminster.

 

Sturgeon is correct to want a referendum date between the Brexit deal being finalised but before the divorce is made absolute. I think the timing is crucial if Scotland is to be a member of the EU under optimal terms.

 

I sense that the EU will welcome Scotland with open arms. Both because I don't sense they tar Scotland with the same brush of exasperation as Westminster but because they see Scotland as being a good "fit". It's not always about cash.

 

Democracy was upheld 2 years ago.  These things are not like the Olympics, or the World Cup. Next one in a generation's time- as agreed.

4 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

Could have been? Might have been? You are very happy to rely upon innate assumptions to enforce your point. Sadly, the facts don't bear out what you are trying to get across.

 

Here are the facts (from Quora):

"for 62 of the last 67 years, Scottish MPs as an entity have had no practical influence over the composition of the UK government. From a high of 72 MPs in 1983, Scotland's representation will by 2015 have decreased to 52, substantially reducing any future possibility of affecting a change."

 

One point, the number of MPs in Scotland is currently 59, not the 52 predicted above. However we still have no influence over the composition of the UK government.

 

That's odd: the usual Tory complaint for losing a tight election was, "If it hadn't been for Scotland, we would have..."

 

You can probably sympathise with such sentiments.  I guess yours is/was: "if it hadn't been for the will of the Scottish people, we would be independent."

 

 

 

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, RuamRudy said:

 

I don't dispute for a second that there are @rseholes who discredit the independence movement with their nonsense, small minded crap, just like there are those who are happy to dish out the opposite abuse towards Scots. I don't believe that anti-English sentiment is substantial, just like I don't believe that the majority of English hate the Scots.

 

Without wishing to come across all Trump like, there are also the means and the will for organisations within and outwith the government to create bots that automatically generate such garbage to discredit their opposition. This sounds tinfoil hat stuff, but it is a clear tactic used elsewhere.

The SNP are backed by Putin aren't they?

[Grouse]

1 minute ago, mommysboy said:

 

Democracy was upheld 2 years ago.  These things are not like the Olympics, or the World Cup. Next one in a generation's time- as agreed.

 

That's odd: the usual Tory complaint for losing a tight election was, "If it hadn't been for Scotland, we would have..."

 

You can probably sympathise with such sentiments.  I guess yours is/was: "if it hadn't been for the will of the Scottish people, we would be independent."

 

 

 

Why do you ignore the elephant in the room. It's called Brexit. I take it that you don't consider it a material change?

[whatawonderfulday]

1 minute ago, Grouse said:

Why do you ignore the elephant in the room. It's called Brexit. I take it that you don't consider it a material change?

 

[mommysboy]

5 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Subordinate!

Subordinate! yes indeed. I deliberately chose subservient.  There are 2 meanings: the second referring to things : subordinate, secondary, subsidiary, peripheral, ancillary, auxiliary.

 

[chickenslegs]

15 hours ago, emilymat said:

I'm no fan of Nicola Sturgeon, but watched her news conference. No-one can really argue there has been no 'substantial' change in the political landscape since 2014, which is the SNP manifesto argument as justification for a second referendum. Personally, I believe a second independence referendum will be lost by the SNP. 

 

However I welcomed NS's tweet today, which endorses something I have been arguing for some time. NS says she was elected by a substantial vote as Scotland's first minister, whereas Teresa May has not been  elected by anyone!    Very true, and I object to TM acting as some British Joan of Arc able to deliver us into the promised land - something she actually does not herself believe.  She yearns to call a snap election if she could, but she knows she can't under the fixed term parliament rules, introduced by her predecessor in the coalition government. 

UK Prime Ministers are never elected by the people, they are appointed by the party with most seats in the HoC. I believe that the Scottish system is similar.

 

So, if I am correct, they have each been appointed by the the majority vote of their respective political parties.

[RuamRudy]

15 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

That's odd: the usual Tory complaint for losing a tight election was, "If it hadn't been for Scotland, we would have..."

So are you disputing the statement that Scotland has negligible influence in the make-up of UK governments or do you accept that Scotland rarely has had any influence on the outcomes of General Elections?

 

17 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

You can probably sympathise with such sentiments.  I guess yours is/was: "if it hadn't been for the will of the Scottish people, we would be independent."

You know what they say about the dangers of assuming things...

 

[mommysboy]

7 minutes ago, Grouse said:

Why do you ignore the elephant in the room. It's called Brexit. I take it that you don't consider it a material change?

 

This phrase material change, I'm not sure who coined it, but can take a good guess!

 

Well, it's a heck of a game changer that's for sure, and I'm still smarting from it, although in truth I was only a weak remainer at the time.

 

Grounds for another referendum?  Absolutely not, I can't see that being British in all respects has anything to do with membership of the EU.  It strikes me that Nats are just using the issue as a vehicle to once again press for independence.

 

And again, this was a UK wide vote.  The decision must be respected.

 

Scotland voted to remain part of UK in all respects. This is a long term commitment.  It is not one to be reviewed every couple of years, when things do not go Scotland's way. Especially as in other respects (budget subsidy) the ball has bounced Scotland's way.

 

 

[Nurseynutcase]

17 hours ago, RuamRudy said:

 

But she has a point. We have a government foisted upon us that has one single representative out of 59 MPs. Unfortunately there may be no easy way to say this, but Scotland has had to endure a Tory coalition then a Tory majority government, and all the failed and highly damaging austerity that went with it, because of English tory voters. That isn't anti-English sentiment but reality.

 

Brexit is the same situation - the overwhelming wish of the Scottish people, far more emphatic than their wish to stay part of the UK, was to remain in Europe. As the country's democratically elected leader, she is mandated to respect that wish and fight for it however she can.

However, if you look at the numbers who voted to remain as proportion of the people who could have voted in the national referendum you will find that is 38% of the total population of Scotland who voted to remain.

 

I rest my case.

[mommysboy]

14 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

So are you disputing the statement that Scotland has negligible influence in the make-up of UK governments or do you accept that Scotland rarely has had any influence on the outcomes of General Elections?

 

You know what they say about the dangers of assuming things...

 

Well I'm pretty sure there was a time in the not too distant past when the Scottish Labour party was dominant in Scotland, and Labour won general elections!

 

But yes of course as Scotland only has 50 odd seats then its effects may be minimal unless it happens to vote the same way as the winning party in England.  I must admit I don't envisage the Scots Nats sweeping to victory south of the border.

 

Incidentally, I think the Brexit vote was a sham, but it must stand. IMO you can not possibly decide an issue on the basis of such a narrow margin.  Any such referendum in the future must rely on a 60% vote, and majority agreement among constituent parts. 

 

In my books, Scotland and NI disagreed and that is grounds to declare the result unworkable.

 

But you see- that is my opinion and not the rules.

 

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by mommysboy

[mommysboy]

I might also add that holding an independence referendum centred around Scotland's right to retain EU membership is no independence vote at all.

 

1. Independence is a vote on self determination.

2. It is an exercise in futility: Scotland simply can not retain EU membership if they drop out of UK, only the Scots Nats think differently.

[Baerboxer]

On 3/14/2017 at 11:12 AM, baboon said:

That Sturgeon wants to take advantage of the inevitable Brexit chaos and not wait until the dust has settled shows her for the wrecker she is, in my opinion. Of course she will be alright, thanks, no matter what happens.

It simply isn't the time to pour turmoil on troubled waters.

 

Absolutely. She's still peddling the lie that if Scotland vote to leave the UK before the UK formally leaves the EU then Scotland can simply say it's going to remain. The EU leaders and EC Commission have all denied this, and have emphasized Scotland, which doesn't have EU membership now, will be out of the EU when the UK leaves. If Scotland leaves the UK before the UK leaves they will also be leaving the EU.

 

But Sturgeon continues to claim otherwise, spouting on about "special case" status. Total fabrication and denial of reality.

 

But she'll keep her big salary, still be leader, with her husband still the SNP CEO whatever happens. She couldn't give a monkey's chuff for Scots or anyone else, only her ego.

[Baerboxer]

1 hour ago, mommysboy said:

I might also add that holding an independence referendum centred around Scotland's right to retain EU membership is no independence vote at all.

 

1. Independence is a vote on self determination.

2. It is an exercise in futility: Scotland simply can not retain EU membership if they drop out of UK, only the Scots Nats think differently.

 

They can't retain what the don't have. The UK has EU membership, not Scotland. An independent Scotland would have to apply like any other candidate. 

She lies as she has before because to her the end justifies the result. And that end is Scottish independence for the hated English regardless of any consequences or considerations.

[whatawonderfulday]

5 minutes ago, Baerboxer said:

 

Absolutely. She's still peddling the lie that if Scotland vote to leave the UK before the UK formally leaves the EU then Scotland can simply say it's going to remain. The EU leaders and EC Commission have all denied this, and have emphasized Scotland, which doesn't have EU membership now, will be out of the EU when the UK leaves. If Scotland leaves the UK before the UK leaves they will also be leaving the EU.

 

But Sturgeon continues to claim otherwise, spouting on about "special case" status. Total fabrication and denial of reality.

 

But she'll keep her big salary, still be leader, with her husband still the SNP CEO whatever happens. She couldn't give a monkey's chuff for Scots or anyone else, only her ego.

 

[mommysboy]

Eurosceptics in Scotland. 

 

EU membership may not be the 'elephant in the room' that Scots Nats think.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/

[RuamRudy]

12 minutes ago, mommysboy said:

Eurosceptics in Scotland. 

 

EU membership may not be the 'elephant in the room' that Scots Nats think.

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/15/nicola-sturgeon-abandons-bid-remain-eu-poll-shows-record-level/

Interestingly, the same survey that the Telegraph cites shows that support for independence is at its highest ever level.

 

"This is a higher level of support for independence than at any time since 1999, and double the level registered by ScotCen in 2012."

 

Here is how the National reports it:

 

[transam]

12 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

Interestingly, the same survey that the Telegraph cites shows that support for independence is at its highest ever level.

 

"This is a higher level of support for independence than at any time since 1999, and double the level registered by ScotCen in 2012."

 

Here is how the National reports it:

 

So tell me, why do you think Scotland should break away from the Union of the small land mass of England, Scotland and Wales that is revered by the world in it's advancements for such a small place....? 

[RuamRudy]

27 minutes ago, transam said:

So tell me, why do you think Scotland should break away from the Union of the small land mass of England, Scotland and Wales that is revered by the world in it's advancements for such a small place....? 

I don't want to brush you off, but it would be impossible for me to reduce a lifetime of political conviction to a few lines of prose. That is a question that would be better addressed over a few pints in front of a warm fire. If you are ever in my neck of the woods, let me know, my shout.

[mommysboy]

23 minutes ago, RuamRudy said:

I don't want to brush you off, but it would be impossible for me to reduce a lifetime of political conviction to a few lines of prose. That is a question that would be better addressed over a few pints in front of a warm fire. If you are ever in my neck of the woods, let me know, my shout.

 

A compelling reason for independence would be 60% in favour of independence over a time frame of a couple of years.  Under those circumstances a referendum would be right, and indeed undeniable.

 

In contrast to the crock of ...... that has been suggested over the last few days.

 

Update: latest you gov poll suggests 57/43 against independence.

 

Edited March 15, 2017 by mommysboy
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