Thousands demonstrate in London against leaving the EU

[pitrevie]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

Just my reply to your latest irrelevant comment. Nothing else to explain.

In other words your statement was wrong as I have shown just by quoting Boris Johnson's position. Johnson maintained for quite a long time that leaving the EU did not meaning leaving the single market.

 

Your statement.

 

"anyone with a basic understanding of the EU membership rules would know that leaving the EU also means leaving the single market." 

[nauseus]

3 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

I never claimed that Cameron said he would quit if he lost the vote in fact I have stated quite the opposite and that Cameron stated he would not quit so you talk about irrelevant observations and then you produce that nonsense.

What I have said repeatedly is that others, among them experience politicians said that he would have to quit if he lost the vote. You really need to read a post before you try a straw-man like that. 

No you didn't, so why quote the bets laid by Clarke & Co that did. 

Any Brexit Plan was Cameron's responsibility as Prime Minister.  

He did not expect to lose, did not expect to quit and did not organize any plan.

He blew it.

The end. 

[nauseus]

4 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

In other words your statement was wrong as I have shown just by quoting Boris Johnson's position. Johnson maintained for quite a long time that leaving the EU did not meaning leaving the single market.

 

Your statement.

 

"anyone with a basic understanding of the EU membership rules would know that leaving the EU also means leaving the single market." 

For the very last time. Non members of the EU cannot be part of the single market. Boris was wrong. I don't quote people. You do.

The Norwegian example means being a member of a different association (EEA) but this includes similarly hefty payments into the EU and acceptance of some ECJ regulation plus freedom of movement of people, which is one the main reasons people voted out of the EU in any case.

The end.  

 

[pitrevie]

4 minutes ago, nauseus said:

No you didn't, so why quote the bets laid by Clarke & Co that did. 

Any Brexit Plan was Cameron's responsibility as Prime Minister.  

He did not expect to lose, did not expect to quit and did not organize any plan.

He blew it.

The end. 

Now its bluster I have said repeatedly that in the event Cameron lost the vote several politicians had said that he was toast among them the Pro Remain Clarke and the Pro Brexit Farage. In fact you can find quotes from Cameron where he states he intended to stay on in the event he lost the vote. That was of course unrealistic as he realised within hours of the vote result. He didn't even wait for the men in grey suit to arrive on his doorstep he went. He was also realistic enough to announce in the Commons that the new government should be responsible for formulating a Brexit strategy. Of course he didn't organise any plan whose arguing with that you are stating the obvious but I think he was being realistic as he knew anything he formulated would likely be ditched as soon as the new leadership took over.

[pitrevie]

3 minutes ago, nauseus said:

For the very last time. Non members of the EU cannot be part of the single market. Boris was wrong. I don't quote people. You do.

The Norwegian example means being a member of a different association (EEA) but this includes similarly hefty payments into the EU and acceptance of some ECJ regulation plus freedom of movement of people, which is one the main reasons people voted out of the EU in any case.

The end.  

 

And I give you a list of quotes from very senior experienced politicians that stated that we could be members of the single market while being outside the EU which you have chosen to ignore.

To all intents and purposes Norway and Switzerland are members of the single market without being part of the EU and that was a course that even Farage seemed to be in favour of until he realised that also meant accepting freedom of movement. In Norway's case it has full access to the single market and accepts freedom of movement, that was the option being mooted even by Farage who told us many times how the Norwegians were happy and rich and then did his backpedalling and never mentioned the happy and rich Norwegians again.

[nauseus]

20 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

Now its bluster I have said repeatedly that in the event Cameron lost the vote several politicians had said that he was toast among them the Pro Remain Clarke and the Pro Brexit Farage. In fact you can find quotes from Cameron where he states he intended to stay on in the event he lost the vote. That was of course unrealistic as he realised within hours of the vote result. He didn't even wait for the men in grey suit to arrive on his doorstep he went. He was also realistic enough to announce in the Commons that the new government should be responsible for formulating a Brexit strategy. Of course he didn't organise any plan whose arguing with that you are stating the obvious but I think he was being realistic as he knew anything he formulated would likely be ditched as soon as the new leadership took over.

Now its bluster I have said repeatedly that in the event Cameron lost the vote several politicians had said that he was toast among them the Pro Remain Clarke and the Pro Brexit Farage so what is really relevant here? In fact you can find quotes from Cameron where he states he intended to stay on in the event he lost the vote. That was of course unrealistic as he realised within hours of the vote result. He didn't even wait for the men in grey suit to arrive on his doorstep he went. He had already decided what he would do if the referendum was lost. He was just in shock for a few hours and had to get someone to write his speech! He was also realistic enough to announce in the Commons that the new government should be responsible for formulating a Brexit strategy Realistic? He had no plan so dumped the responsibility on his successor hoping that no one would notice!. Of course he didn't organise any plan whose arguing with that you are stating the obvious but I think he was being realistic as he knew anything he formulated would likely be ditched as soon as the new leadership took over - no excuse - a plan could have been formulated by the cabinet, which would likely also contain any successor, which it did.

Edited April 4, 2017 by nauseus

[nauseus]

12 minutes ago, pitrevie said:

And I give you a list of quotes from very senior experienced politicians that stated that we could be members of the single market while being outside the EU which you have chosen to ignore.

To all intents and purposes Norway and Switzerland are members of the single market without being part of the EU and that was a course that even Farage seemed to be in favour of until he realised that also meant accepting freedom of movement. In Norway's case it has full access to the single market and accepts freedom of movement, that was the option being mooted even by Farage who told us many times how the Norwegians were happy and rich and then did his backpedalling and never mentioned the happy and rich Norwegians again.

If you read what I said I think it says pretty much the same as you. I just said the Norwegians have to pay in a lot of money - they are not in the EU but are the 5th biggest net contributor to it! The referendum question was simple - it did not include "options" like EEA membership.

Edited April 4, 2017 by nauseus

[pitrevie]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

Now its bluster I have said repeatedly that in the event Cameron lost the vote several politicians had said that he was toast among them the Pro Remain Clarke and the Pro Brexit Farage so what is really relevant here? In fact you can find quotes from Cameron where he states he intended to stay on in the event he lost the vote. That was of course unrealistic as he realised within hours of the vote result. He didn't even wait for the men in grey suit to arrive on his doorstep he went. He had already decided what he would do if the referendum was lost. He was just in shock for a few hours and had to get someone to write his speech! He was also realistic enough to announce in the Commons that the new government should be responsible for formulating a Brexit strategy Realistic? He had no plan so dumped the responsibility on his successor hoping that no one would notice!. Of course he didn't organise any plan whose arguing with that you are stating the obvious but I think he was being realistic as he knew anything he formulated would likely be ditched as soon as the new leadership took over - no excuse - a plan could have been formulated by the cabinet, which would likely also contain any successor, which it did.

What is relevant is that Cameron having lost the vote was never going to have a hand in formulating Brexit policy despite his promise to stay on as PM. As Clarke said if he lost the vote he would be out in 30 seconds. And before anyone jumps in I doubt that Clarke meant that literally but he knew as an experienced politician Cameron would not survive and I have no doubt once he got over the shock he also came to the same conclusion and decided to go sooner than later.

Yeah right Cameron could have formulated a plan which he could have handed over to his successor who would promptly binned it. She even binned his senior ministers.

[pitrevie]

1 hour ago, nauseus said:

If you read what I said I think it says pretty much the same as you. I just said the Norwegians have to pay in a lot of money - they are not in the EU but are the 5th biggest net contributor to it! The referendum question was simple - it did not include "options" like EEA membership.

Yes I know Boris was wrong but that didn't stop him pushing that story just like he was wrong about the rebate but again that made no difference. How many times have you heard the phrase "having your cake and eating it" in recent months. It was Boris as leader of the OUT campaign that was telling everyone that we could still remain members of the single market without Freedom of movement, it was one big lie but he refused to back down from it until well after the vote. All the EU leaders have been consistent in saying membership of the EU single market comes with Freedom of Movement. Boris as leader of the OUT campaign told everyone vote out and we can remain members of the single market and he was not alone in the Brexit leadership in pushing that lie.

Now the argument has shifted to we voted out and it doesn't matter what the final agreement is, nobody cares. No single market, no reduction in immigration numbers and no extra cash for anything let alone the NHS.

Boris may as well have gone on TV and told everyone vote out what happens next is none of your business.

 

Your claim: "anyone with a basic understanding of the EU membership rules would know that leaving the EU also means leaving the single market."  

 

obviously not the leader of the OUT campaign and the present Foreign secretary.

[nauseus]

4 hours ago, pitrevie said:

What is relevant is that Cameron having lost the vote was never going to have a hand in formulating Brexit policy despite his promise to stay on as PM. As Clarke said if he lost the vote he would be out in 30 seconds. And before anyone jumps in I doubt that Clarke meant that literally but he knew as an experienced politician Cameron would not survive and I have no doubt once he got over the shock he also came to the same conclusion and decided to go sooner than later.

Yeah right Cameron could have formulated a plan which he could have handed over to his successor who would promptly binned it. She even binned his senior ministers.

The plan Cameron was responsible for should have been formed before the referendum! That is what is relevant.

Clarke is a single voice, he was right about Cameron going but so what?

Any plan (if there had been one) going in the bin is just speculation on your part.

New PMs always have a cabinet shuffle - no news there.

[citybiker]

The outgoing guard of Cameron & Osbourne didn't formulate a Brexit plan as they were arrogant enough to think it would be business as usual come 24th June.

 

Thankfully, they've now gone and the new guard had no choice but to start from scratch, in a interview with Mr Gove he clearly states they rarely speak these days as before they were close friends.

 

Sour grapes from Cameron, not that him & Osbourne will worry too much post Brexit vote.

 

 

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[beautifulthailand99]

On 31/03/2017 at 11:42 PM, citybiker said:

 

Subsidiaries (as per article) are hardly businesses voting with their feet, their simply European contingency planning focusing on European client base.

Very much like the oldest insurance trader 'Lloyds of London' choosing Brussels as a subsidiary location, the CEO herself stated, there's nothing to worry about as Brexit only applies to 5% of their business, interview easily located via BBC.

Sources like: Guardian, Bloomberg etc must be treated with caution, much like anything else anti-Brexit.




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well of course Brexit was led by Johnson, Farage,Gove (who he ed?) - stalwarts of truth and wisdom. I can forgive the Brexiteer foot soldiers for like the cannon fodder of the First World War they were lions led by donkeys - but will slaughtered along with everyone else when the final reckoning is in.

[Khun Han]

2 minutes ago, beautifulthailand99 said:

well of course Brexit was led by Johnson, Farage,Gove (who he ed?) - stalwarts of truth and wisdom. I can forgive the Brexiteer foot soldiers for like the cannon fodder of the First World War they were lions led by donkeys - but will slaughtered along with everyone else when the final reckoning is in.

 

Sorry, i've not seen that movie. Is it a new release?

[beautifulthailand99]

13 minutes ago, Khun Han said:

 

Sorry, i've not seen that movie. Is it a new release?

Fear not ...here it is !

 

 

[citybiker]

well of course Brexit was led by Johnson, Farage,Gove (who he ed?) - stalwarts of truth and wisdom. I can forgive the Brexiteer foot soldiers for like the cannon fodder of the First World War they were lions led by donkeys - but will slaughtered along with everyone else when the final reckoning is in.

It always amuses me that Brexiteer's are stereotyped as thick cannon fodder who were led astray by the political leavers, in fact since the surprising result the media has continued on this Blame Brexit Road.

Ignorance, denial and lack of ambition to cut the EU apron strings to focus on the 85% of global trade potentially available without the meddling EU wanting to place restrictions.

The above named Politicians were simply the frontline, yet the more intelligent astute Pro Brexit supporters such as MP Jacob Reece Mogg, owner of JCB to name just two that are hardly classed as 'cannon fodder'.......time to move on, in a positive forward thinking manner but with wary caution as it's clear after today's lively EU debate which Farage compared to Brussel's to the Mafia was pure class..


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[beautifulthailand99]

Interesting to remember how the EU came about and the calibre of some of it's founders.

Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

 

 

[MRTELLYOUSTRAIGHT]

These imbecilic anti-Brexit campaigners couldn't pour water out of a boot if it had instructions on the heel. Astoundingly low IQ's with absolutely no intelligent response to any of the questions given. These virtue signalling village idiots should stay out of politics and stay in their mums basement with their Che Guevara posters and John Lennon LP's.

 

 

[beautifulthailand99]

Oh yes Tommy Robinson ex of the English Defence League who spawned  this creature (assumed BREXIT).

 

 

[citybiker]

Assumed Brexit?

Tsk.

'Appropriate "Assume" slang , you make & ass out of you & me.

Please refrain from combining EDL, BNP and the others names less ilks in the same sentence as Brexit, it'll just invite idiots, mongs and imbeciles from the likes of UAF, BLM and others.

However a balanced unbiased debate is warmly welcomed.




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[onthesoi]

1 hour ago, citybiker said:

It always amuses me that Brexiteer's are stereotyped as thick cannon fodder who were led astray by the political leavers, in fact since the surprising result the media has continued on this Blame Brexit Road.

Ignorance, denial and lack of ambition to cut the EU apron strings to focus on the 85% of global trade potentially available without the meddling EU wanting to place restrictions.

 

 

How are the Germans able to have a booming economy, exporting their cars and other manufacture all over the world as part of the EU, ....but the UK has to leave the EU to do the same?

 

The UK is going to increase trade by leaving the single biggest market on their doorstep ....really?

[Khun Han]

8 hours ago, onthesoi said:

 

How are the Germans able to have a booming economy, exporting their cars and other manufacture all over the world as part of the EU, ....but the UK has to leave the EU to do the same?

 

The UK is going to increase trade by leaving the single biggest market on their doorstep ....really?

 

Because the Euro subsidises German exports. If Germany were to return to the Deutschmark, it's export prices would skyrocket and it's exports would decline.

[jimmybkk]

On 06/04/2017 at 4:12 AM, onthesoi said:

 

How are the Germans able to have a booming economy, exporting their cars and other manufacture all over the world as part of the EU, ....but the UK has to leave the EU to do the same?

 

The UK is going to increase trade by leaving the single biggest market on their doorstep ....really?

You make it sound as if leaving the EU means the UK is turning its back on the possibility of trading with countries that are still a part of the EU, and if that is what you believe then it's hats off to the Remainers for doing such a good job of convincing you. Do you seriously believe that any nations within the EU want to stop trading with the UK just because we're no longer in the EU? Get real. What EU members would like to do with a Brexited UK is sign their own trade agreements with the UK, except they're not going to be allowed to because they've already sold their souls to Brussels. Regardless of what people say about the UK not being the force it once was, it still has buying power in terms of how much it spends on imported goods, and no nation wants to be excluded from dealing with a potential customer.

 

It's time to wake up and realize that the EU wasn't established to create more opportunities for member countries. It was established to create wealth for the Eurocrats in Brussels. Forget all this BS about how much each EU country contributes and whether they are in credit or in deficit... Focus instead on how much the EU as the controlling body costs to run. 10,000 EU staff earning more than David Cameron (which we wouldn't have known about were it not for a 'leak'...) That level of secrecy doesn't strike you as wrong? Cameron was the PM of one of the largest economies within the EU, and so, assuming salary is commensurate with competence, capability and importance, that would mean that there are 10,000 Eurocrats more competent, more capable and more important than Cameron... one of the EU's top 5 leaders... out-salaried by around 9,990 Eurocrats... Wow! Those guys and gals must have some serious business to attend to... Shouldn't they at least have salaries that are performance-based?

 

OK, so back to reality then... Let's agree that the Eurocrats are only interested in their own well-being, hence the fact that they don't base any nation's entry fees into the EU on how well that nation does from its membership... It's a flat fee... So why should they care? And just to reiterate, I'm not talking about what is often grouped together as the cost of the UK being an EU member... what we're talking about here is what the member states pay to afford those hefty salaries of the Eurocrats... and despite how it is dressed up and disguised, you can rest assured it is unrelated to the benefit of the member nations, and all about the benefit of the Eurocrats.

 

Now, how hard would it be to keep an organization such as this going if you were able to offer these kinds of salaries to anyone who was prepared to join (on behalf of their nation)...?

[onthesoi]

On 06/04/2017 at 6:59 AM, Khun Han said:

Because the Euro subsidises German exports. If Germany were to return to the Deutschmark, it's export prices would skyrocket and it's exports would decline.

 

The UK choose not to have the Euro so who is to blame for that?

 

Following your flawed logic for a second, which says the Germans are only booming because they have the Euro( lets forget the big fly in your ointment when you try to explain the EU countries that also have the Euro but are not booming ) then that would suggest the UK should follow Germany's lead and adopt the Euro .....but no, the answer is to leave the EU altogether, well that doesn't even begin to make sense never mind answer my question on how Germany is booming within the EU but the UK is being held back somehow by being part of the EU??????????

 

 

 

Edited April 7, 2017 by onthesoi

[onthesoi]

21 minutes ago, jimmybkk said:

You make it sound....

Your rant has nothing to do with my post, I can only think you quoted the wrong person.

[pitrevie]

On 06/04/2017 at 0:59 PM, Khun Han said:

 

Because the Euro subsidises German exports. If Germany were to return to the Deutschmark, it's export prices would skyrocket and it's exports would decline.

So explain how the Germans did it when they had the DM. I seem to recall long before the Euro, the Germans were thriving when at the same time the UK, not in the EEC but trading globally, none of those pesky European regulations and laws and known as the sick man of Europe.

[Khun Han]

2 hours ago, onthesoi said:

 

The UK choose not to have the Euro so who is to blame for that?

 

Following your flawed logic for a second, which says the Germans are only booming because they have the Euro( lets forget the big fly in your ointment when you try to explain the EU countries that also have the Euro but are not booming ) then that would suggest the UK should follow Germany's lead and adopt the Euro .....but no, the answer is to leave the EU altogether, well that doesn't even begin to make sense never mind answer my question on how Germany is booming within the EU but the UK is being held back somehow by being part of the EU??????????

 

 

 

 

You really need to go and inform yourself about how the Euro works. If the UK had joined the Eurozone, our economy would have been somewhere between Greece and Italy's by now, and Germany's exports would have been doing even better than they are (except to us). Of course, the subsidy Germany receives from being in the Eurozone isn't the only factor in Germany's success. There are others, not least of which is that Germany does what it does very efficiently. Like I said, find out how the Euro works before digging yourself into a big hole.

[pitrevie]

8 hours ago, Khun Han said:

 

You really need to go and inform yourself about how the Euro works. If the UK had joined the Eurozone, our economy would have been somewhere between Greece and Italy's by now, and Germany's exports would have been doing even better than they are (except to us). Of course, the subsidy Germany receives from being in the Eurozone isn't the only factor in Germany's success. There are others, not least of which is that Germany does what it does very efficiently. Like I said, find out how the Euro works before digging yourself into a big hole.

It would be much like the hole you have dug yourself into. However I see at least you have started giving Germany a bit more credit other than claiming that it was a cheap Euro that was the reason for their success.

There's are numerous reasons for Germany success since WW2 and its been accomplished despite a currency that was appreciating during that time. So clearly a cheap Euro had nothing to do with it.

Some of the points made in the video while not the whole story explain some of  the reasons for German success. I wonder what the excuse will be when the UK is out of the EU.

 

[Celer et Audax]

Scotland won't leave,they get given to much by England,they know which side their breads buttered, like the news they are going to get free ivf treatment on the nhs while everyone else pays for it,and their prescriptions and university fees ,widow Twanky will soon be a thing of the past ,oh by the way I don't dislike Scotch people

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Scotch is a type of alcoholic drink! I think the word you were looking for is Scots


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[RuamRudy]

Scotch is a type of alcoholic drink! I think the word you were looking for is Scots

 

 

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Unfortunately there are those in England who are outraged that Scots have the impertinence to suggest that there may be a better way to run their country than from Westminster, so they take every opportunity to run Scotland down and denigrate it's leaders.

 

Personally, I am fine with it. It helps in convincing my fellow Scots that independence is a very good thing, although more and more are realising that themselves every day; it also demonstrates just how little in the way of a positive case for the union there actually is.

 

[citybiker]

 
Unfortunately there are those in England who are outraged that Scots have the impertinence to suggest that there may be a better way to run their country than from Westminster, so they take every opportunity to run Scotland down and denigrate it's leaders.
 
Personally, I am fine with it. It helps in convincing my fellow Scots that independence is a very good thing, although more and more are realising that themselves every day; it also demonstrates just how little in the way of a positive case for the union there actually is.
 

The more astute Scots, irrespective of their current location also are far more aware to look above & beyond our neighbours attitude towards Scotland as a country, being fully aware & irritated of how the SNP take every opportunity to disengage and be obstinate towards the Tory Government and not look at the strategic picture to improve Scotland overall.

Personally, I'm relieved we've finally got a PM that doesn't pander to the SG and willing to say NO in a more diplomatic and constructive manner. It's also disappointing to hear that the only people that are constantly belittling the Union are Nationalist SNP supporters.


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