Help needed with circuit board

[irlguy1]

Hi all

We just bought this for my dads house as he is pretty handy with electrics and this is for his shock.

He hasn't seen one like this though and I can't say I recognise a certain wire in it.

If anyone can take a look please.

The thing is he wants to use it without this wire as he has rigged it and it works but I don't want to take a chance

 

It looks like it could be an earth but it's at the top and just doesn't seem right.

 

 

 

 

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[irlguy1]

Afhhhhhhhhh why won't this forum allow photo share ?
[emoji35]


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[irlguy1]

Finally let me post pics


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[RichCor]

3 hours ago, irlguy1 said:

This above image appears to be destined as a MEN (Earth-Neutral) bridge link.

@Crossy has posted several drawings showing how a MAINS INCOMERS should be routed in a properly wired in an properly Earth-Ground supported CU.

 

The latest has the MAINS INCOMER NEUTRAL being connected directly to the EARTH GROUND BAR, then a similarly-sized wire utilized to connect to the NEUTRAL MAINS BREAKER. 

 

Several CAVEATS follow:::

 

Stranded Wire shouldn't have strands removed to fit a connector. If the Bus Bar connection is too small, divide the strands between TWO Bus Bar connectors. (Use All The Strands) 

 

WARNING WARNING WARNING

 

 

What are the two Blue Wires connected directly to the MAINS INCOMERS doing???  This is Really Dangerous!!!  

These wires are carrying maximum unfused current from the Meter/Overhead MAINS. There is no safety on them.

 

The only time this 'might' be OK is when the steel welders want direct power (and supply their own breaker) to their machines. Otherwise this is just a funeral waiting to happen. 

[RichCor]

ADDENDUM:

 

 

4 hours ago, irlguy1 said:

We just bought this for my dads house as he is pretty handy with electrics and this is for his shock (shop?)

If this is a second CU (sub-panel), for a workshop connected to the house and wired to an already existing CU, then the MEN bridge link isn't used on sub-panels.

 

[irlguy1]

This above image appears to be destined as a MEN (Earth-Neutral) bridge link.

[mention=14979]Crossy[/mention] has posted several drawings showing how a MAINS INCOMERS should be routed in a properly wired in an properly Earth-Ground supported CU.
 
The latest has the MAINS INCOMER NEUTRAL being connected directly to the EARTH GROUND BAR, then a similarly-sized wire utilized to connect to the NEUTRAL MAINS BREAKER. 
 
Several CAVEATS follow:::
 
Stranded Wire shouldn't have strands removed to fit a connector. If the Bus Bar connection is too small, divide the strands between TWO Bus Bar connectors. (Use All The Strands) 
 
WARNING WARNING WARNING
 

 
What are the two Blue Wires connected directly to the MAINS INCOMERS doing???  This is Really Dangerous!!!  
These wires are carrying maximum unfused current from the Meter/Overhead MAINS. There is no safety on them.
 
The only time this 'might' be OK is when the steel welders want direct power (and supply their own breaker) to their machines. Otherwise this is just a funeral waiting to happen. 

These are from a live source to test the panel and we're removed after test.


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[irlguy1]

ADDENDUM:
 
 
If this is a second CU (sub-panel), for a workshop connected to the house and wired to an already existing CU, then the MEN bridge link isn't used on sub-panels.
 

This is a main fuse board for an entire house


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[irlguy1]

 

 

 

Finally let me post pics

 

 

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Please disregard the two blue wires going in at the bottom. They were live and used to test the board was working as the mains wasn't hooked up yet.

 

So can anyone explain in lay mans english what the black piece of cable is and what it was for ? When the box was opened originally the black cable was connected from bottom left to top left. The shape of the wire shows where it ran.

 

 

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[carlyai]

So can anyone explain in lay mans english what the black piece of cable is and what it was for ?

I think RichCor just did.

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[Crossy]

Assuming it went from the bottom left terminal of the main breaker to the ground bar at the top (where all the green wires were) then it is the MEN link and is a vital part of the safety of your system.

 

You wouldn't see it in the UK because it's hidden in the service head and Europe isn't necessarily 3-phase 4-wire, many places are 3-phase 3-wire (they have 2 pole MCBs in the distribution board)

 

Without it you are relying on any RCD/RCBO (which you don't have) to open the circuit in the event of the live to earth fault, the MEN link provides a metallic path from your earth bar back to the star point of the transformer allowing the MCB to open on a L-E fault.

 

Is there a ground rod? No? Install one!

 

Currently a L-E fault will bring all your "earthed" appliances up to a potentially lethal voltage.

 

As a matter of urgency you should also replace the main breaker with an RCBO (or fit a front end Safe-T-Cut device).

 

Have a look at this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system Thailand is TN-C-S with MEN.

 

Show dad in law this document Groundwire Mk2 book-Manual.pdf he should be using the left hand picture on page 1.

 

[Crossy]

10 hours ago, irlguy1 said:

Afhhhhhhhhh why won't this forum allow photo share ?

 

It should, which sharing site were you trying to use?

 

[irlguy1]

So can anyone explain in lay mans english what the black piece of cable is and what it was for ?

I think RichCor just did.

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Sorry if we are not all geniuses but that was not lay man English [emoji23]


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[irlguy1]

 
It should, which sharing site were you trying to use?
 

It turned out that any picture over 3 meg won't upload when you click the attachment tab.

I just made them smaller


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[irlguy1]

Assuming it went from the bottom left terminal of the main breaker to the ground bar at the top (where all the green wires were) then it is the MEN link and is a vital part of the safety of your system.
 
You wouldn't see it in the UK because it's hidden in the service head and Europe isn't necessarily 3-phase 4-wire, many places are 3-phase 3-wire (they have 2 pole MCBs in the distribution board)
 
Without it you are relying on any RCD/RCBO (which you don't have) to open the circuit in the event of the live to earth fault, the MEN link provides a metallic path from your earth bar back to the star point of the transformer allowing the MCB to open on a L-E fault.
 
Is there a ground rod? No? Install one!
 
Currently a L-E fault will bring all your "earthed" appliances up to a potentially lethal voltage.
 
As a matter of urgency you should also replace the main breaker with an RCBO (or fit a front end Safe-T-Cut device).
 
Have a look at this page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earthing_system Thailand is TN-C-S with MEN.
 
Show dad in law this document Groundwire Mk2 book-Manual.pdf he should be using the left hand picture on page 1.
 

It says it's not available from my account when I click the PDF ?


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[wayned]

opens  fine on both adobe reader and PDF exchange viewer on my antiquated  windows XP system with office 2003!

[Crossy]

4 hours ago, irlguy1 said:

It says it's not available from my account when I click the PDF ?

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Can you try from a PC?

Could be an issue with Tapatalk.

 

EDIT Or PM me your email address and I'll mail it to you.

 

[irlguy1]

 

Can you try from a PC?

Could be an issue with Tapatalk.

 

EDIT Or PM me your email address and I'll mail it to you.

 

 

It was Tapatalk I got it on pc

Thanks a million.

We now have a new issue.

Aircon guys were out to fit a new unit and they said the cables in his house are old type and not good for long term.

Something about DHH AND DHW or RHH and RHW ? They are only put in a year ago

Does that make sense to anyone ?

Help needed big time as I don't want him blowing up [emoji13][emoji13]

 

 

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[irlguy1]

opens  fine on both adobe reader and PDF exchange viewer on my antiquated  windows XP system with office 2003!

And that was helpful to me how exactly ?
[emoji12][emoji12]


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[wayned]

It was meant to lead you in the direction that maybe it was the app that you were using not the file.  Crossy was more specific about using Tapatalk but motto says it all:

 

" I can EXPLAIN it to you, but I can't UNDERSTAND it for you. "

[irlguy1]

It was meant to lead you in the direction that maybe it was the app that you were using not the file.  Crossy was more specific about using Tapatalk but motto says it all:
 
" I can EXPLAIN it to you, but I can't UNDERSTAND it for you. "

You explained nothing.
Just as well Crossy did. [emoji106]


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[wayned]

One thing that was not explained is that after you install the earth rod and connect it to the earth bar in the CU you should confirm that the PEA/MEA supply is in fact MEN connected BEFORE you install the little black wire between earth bar and the neutral bar.  This can be done by looking at the power poles.  The neutral wire should be connected to an earth rod driven in the ground at every third pole.  If you install the wire and the PEA supply is not MEN connected then your CU becomes the only earth to neutral connection on the line.  I will not go into detail to explain what could happen if the wire is the only MEN connection on the line, but, under certain conditions, your CU could look like the aftermath of a fourth of July celebration gone wrong.

 

Most posters on this forum are here to answer your questions and help you.  I'm sorry that you took my post about the PDF file wrong, but it was actually meant to indicate that the file was not corrupt and that you should look elsewhere and no  BS was intended!!

[Crossy]

Wayned has a good point about MEN, my initial assumption was that the link had been removed from an existing installation, this appears to be incorrect.

 

If you stick with a TT system (as it is now wired), it is essential for safety that an RCD/RCBO is installed. You can either replace the main breaker with an RCBO type (Schneider / SquareD ones should fit) or add a Safe-T-Cut unit in front of the consumer unit (the Safe-T-Cut may be more readily obtained).

 

NOTE If you go the Safe-T-Cut route you should leave the consumer unit wiring as it is, the N-E link goes in the Safe-T-Cut (it's quite clear in the instructions).

 

The problem with grounds and RCDs is that the system works just fine without them, until you get a fault which could then prove lethal. We see it way too often here, some poor soul gets fried in the shower or in the garden when proper grounding and/or an RCD would likely have saved them.

[irlguy1]

One thing that was not explained is that after you install the earth rod and connect it to the earth bar in the CU you should confirm that the PEA/MEA supply is in fact MEN connected BEFORE you install the little black wire between earth bar and the neutral bar.  This can be done by looking at the power poles.  The neutral wire should be connected to an earth rod driven in the ground at every third pole.  If you install the wire and the PEA supply is not MEN connected then your CU becomes the only earth to neutral connection on the line.  I will not go into detail to explain what could happen if the wire is the only MEN connection on the line, but, under certain conditions, your CU could look like the aftermath of a fourth of July celebration gone wrong.
 
Most posters on this forum are here to answer your questions and help you.  I'm sorry that you took my post about the PDF file wrong, but it was actually meant to indicate that the file was not corrupt and that you should look elsewhere and no  BS was intended!!

I honestly appreciate the good advice thanks.
The PDF comment just seemed a bit trollish but I see it was meant with good intentions [emoji4]




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[irlguy1]

Wayned has a good point about MEN, my initial assumption was that the link had been removed from an existing installation, this appears to be incorrect.
 
If you stick with a TT system (as it is now wired), it is essential for safety that an RCD/RCBO is installed. You can either replace the main breaker with an RCBO type (Schneider / SquareD ones should fit) or add a Safe-T-Cut unit in front of the consumer unit (the Safe-T-Cut may be more readily obtained).
 
NOTE If you go the Safe-T-Cut route you should leave the consumer unit wiring as it is, the N-E link goes in the Safe-T-Cut (it's quite clear in the instructions).
 
The problem with grounds and RCDs is that the system works just fine without them, until you get a fault which could then prove lethal. We see it way too often here, some poor soul gets fried in the shower or in the garden when proper grounding and/or an RCD would likely have saved them.

Hi
Yes this was a brand new out of the box unit that we were told was ready to go as is but the wire I showed just stumped us as it seems to be of no use.
So he took it out [emoji23][emoji35]
So should he put it back in?
Also how come the need for additional RCBO? Should the box not be as advertised and ready to go or am I correct in saying if he puts that wire back then it's good to go as is ?
Thanks again for all the help.


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[Crossy]

OK, go and have a look at the power poles outside, if you see a ground running from the neutral (usually the top wire) on every 3rd pole then the area is wired for MEN and you should re-insert that link and connect the incoming neutral to the ground bar (like in the groundwire document).

 

If a new box it should have instructions, what do they say?

 

The box as supplied does not have earth-leakage protection (RCBO), it's your risk if you don't add it.

 

Is there a ground rod?

 

[irlguy1]

 

4 poles I don't see anything different on any of them.

Except the one that has the original breaker has a guide line running down. I don't know if that's to hold the pole into the soil or if it's a ground wire

 

 

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[irlguy1]

OK, go and have a look at the power poles outside, if you see a ground running from the neutral (usually the top wire) on every 3rd pole then the area is wired for MEN and you should re-insert that link and connect the incoming neutral to the ground bar (like in the groundwire document).
 
If a new box it should have instructions, what do they say?
 
The box as supplied does not have earth-leakage protection (RCBO), it's your risk if you don't add it.
 
Is there a ground rod?
 

Ground rod ?



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[irlguy1]

This is all one pole


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[irlguy1]

OK, go and have a look at the power poles outside, if you see a ground running from the neutral (usually the top wire) on every 3rd pole then the area is wired for MEN and you should re-insert that link and connect the incoming neutral to the ground bar (like in the groundwire document).
 
If a new box it should have instructions, what do they say?
 
The box as supplied does not have earth-leakage protection (RCBO), it's your risk if you don't add it.
 
Is there a ground rod?
 

At the risk of sounding even dumber [emoji23]
How do u add it?


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[Crossy]

OK.

 

Where do all those green wires go?

 

If they are grounds they need to go to the ground bar at the top of the box, which then needs to be connected to a 2.4m rod bashed into the earth. It's all in the document I attached earlier.

 

From the photos, it's probably safest to assume you don't have MEN, so leave the board wired as it is.

 

To add earth leakage protection you can:-

 

Replace the main breaker with one of these.

 

http://www.lazada.co.th/schneider-sq-d-qo240c10rcbo30-2p-40a-10ka-30ma-12749461.html?ff=1

 

 

OR

 

Put one of these in front of the panel.

 

http://www.lazada.co.th/safe-t-cut-2p-50a-special-a-v3-rcbo-6815762.html?ff=1

 

 

You don't have to get them from Lazada, it's just a convenient source of images.

 

The Safe-T-Cut should be readily available locally, and the local sparks (should) know how to hook it up.