More Krap

[Vespa]

Other than Thai what languages use similar "polite" endings to every sentence.

And what is the purpose of ending every sentence with krap / ka ?????

I am lazy and find myself not always ending my phrases using krap and have been told that I "poot mai paw"

Edited December 27, 2006 by Vespa

[In the Rai!]

Other than Thai what languages use similar "polite" endings to every sentence.

And what is the purpose of ending every sentence with krap / ka ?????

I am lazy and find myself not always ending my phrases using krap and have been told that I "poot mai paw"

Yes it is very easy to forget. You must remember though that if you are learning their language, than you must try and use the Krup/ Ka at all times and by not, you will be seen as ไม่สุภาพ (not polite). It is also very easy to go the other way when starting to learn Thai. I was guilty of being an over Krup -er so to speak.(used it far too much) but it is certainly better to over use it, than under use it..

As for other languages. I wish I knew more.

ITR

Edited December 28, 2006 by In the Rai!

[meadish_sweetball]

Just take it as a habit to use it at the end of every single sentence for a while now, just to make it simple.

Agree with ITR that it's better to overdo it than to not do it at all. Be sensitive to who you are talking to. If you are talking to a stranger or an older person, no 'khrap' sounds very rude. With kids and close friends of the same age it is not as crucial.

The point of using polite particles is to not sound rude. Using them at the end of every single sentence can be a bit much and sound 'syrupy'. Try to mimic Thai people you yourself think come off as polite and pleasant, to see how it's done.

Japanese uses 'polite' verb endings. I would be surprised if similar words did not exist in other Asian languages as well.

[Johpa]

Other than Thai what languages use similar "polite" endings to every sentence.

And what is the purpose of ending every sentence with krap / ka ?????

I am lazy and find myself not always ending my phrases using krap and have been told that I "poot mai paw"

In a society as highly stratified and feudal as Thailand was until fairly recently, the use of the polite affirmative particle at the end of clauses insures that one is giving and being accorded a minimum of correct status when the status of the two speakers relative to one another may not be completely known. In effect, better to be safe then sorry and give the other person the benefit of the doubt that you do not look down upon them.

And as Svenske has pointed out, Japan also recently emerged from a feudal and highly stratified society and has far more varied social class markers integrated into then language than does Thai.

English also use to have class markers in the pronoun system back when England was a bit more feudal than today. There was the formal "you" and the informal "thou". French still has the "tu" (informal) and "vous" formal.

And I am sure they are telling you that you phuut mai phra, speak impolitely and not phuut mai paw speak not enough.

[Pescator]

Agree with ITR that it's better to overdo it than to not do it at all. Be sensitive to who you are talking to. If you are talking to a stranger or an older person, no 'khrap' sounds very rude. With kids and close friends of the same age it is not as crucial.

Using the polite ending khrap with children is IMHO clearly over the top unless you as a mum or dad wanna teach them the correct way of adressing adults, that is unless one is in the habit of waing them as well and using khun as their personal pronoun

Additionally, I personally don`t Khrap anyone who is not clearly my "superior" unless they return my Khrap.

It may give better mileage, but I really don`t care.

What is your take on this?

cheers

michael

Edited January 1, 2007 by Pescator

[meadish_sweetball]

I agree with you about not having to 'khrap' kids, and also about doing it properly if your aim is to teach them to be polite.

Thais typically reserve a different (to me it sounds condescending but I am sure a Thai would not agree) type of 'teaching khrap/kha' to kids, than the 'khrap/kha' they use to other adults.

I think your other rule is a bit too rigid to fit real life situations, but we all have different strategies, and whatever floats your boat... Obviously a conversation is give and take. I rarely meet any Thais who refuse to 'khrap' me when I attempt to be pleasant myself, luckily.

In the events that I do, I am more likely to become over-polite as a form of sarcasm showing them I notice their lack of mutual respect and also trying to show that I wont sink to that level, instead of cutting out the polite particles. But that's me. Not saying it is the only way to go, far from it.

EDIT: I should add that the above is more about formal than private situations. There is more to people's behaviour than using polite particles of course. If you see somebody is cutting out the polite particles in order to 'let their hair down', then I dont see anything wrong with it, and wouldnt persist either. You get the feel for the situation I think. It is then more about instincts and reading people, than it is about what is literally being said.

[Pescator]

In the events that I do, I am more likely to become over-polite as a form of sarcasm showing them I notice their lack of mutual respect and also trying to show that I wont sink to that level, instead of cutting out the polite particles. But that's me. Not saying it is the only way to go, far from it

Hej Meadish,

I kinda like that approach

As a matter of fact I don`t think that the guys (it is invariably guys) who fail to return my Khrap mean to be impolite, it is just that they hardly ever use it at all unless they face someone clearly out of their league, which I am not

I should add that I usually spend my time in Thailand in Isan where this particle is seldomly used even when they speak central thai.

I cannot recall a single person in the mubaan who ever used that with me.

Well, being scandinavian born and raised it actually suits me just fine. As you know the scandinavian distinction between the honorific De and the general word Du has all been abandoned by now.

I think your other rule is a bit too rigid to fit real life situations

You are right, I wouldn`t call it a rule though, rather a logical response to the situation, but this is probably just hairsplitting.

Thanks for your reply.

cheers

michael

[meadish_sweetball]

I should add that I usually spend my time in Thailand in Isan where this particle is seldomly used even when they speak central thai.

I cannot recall a single person in the mubaan who ever used that with me.

Yep, I have pretty much the same experience of rural Northern Thailand - the Central Thai norms don't necessarily apply there, and I am fine with that too. Sometimes too much etiquette can get tedious.

I just wish I understood Northern Thai better - the old people understand my Central Thai fine, but they dont seem to be able to pick up on the fact that I have difficulties following their local speech at times. The upside is that I am forced to listen more closely though, which may be a good thing in the long run.

[NukRukDee]

As I learned it, the polite particles krup and ka are to be used up to about three times in the initial phase of the conversation, to sound, well, just that -- polite.

After that, it starts to becomes somewhat awkward and overly cordial to end each sentence with them. At least, that's how I learned it.

But I almost always hear women use ka when speaking to me (unless it's an argument with my g/f... )

[wasabi]

Does everyone always say Krap or sometimes Kap? No r sound. It seems since most Thai's have trouble with r they leave out the r, and it becomes the same word you would use to say drive a car kap rot. I find myself taking on this habit too and seem to always be understood.

[In the Rai!]

Does everyone always say Krap or sometimes Kap? No r sound. It seems since most Thai's have trouble with r they leave out the r, and it becomes the same word you would use to say drive a car kap rot. I find myself taking on this habit too and seem to always be understood.

hey wasabi,

I am guilty of dropping the r in Krap.. I only ever started doing it when around family and friends and sometimes really overdoing the Kap (kap pom). The downside is that sometimes in more formal circles etc that the habit sticks and you forget who your with when you say it. Has been a little embarrissing for me on more than 1 occassion..

[meadish_sweetball]

Does everyone always say Krap or sometimes Kap? No r sound. It seems since most Thai's have trouble with r they leave out the r, and it becomes the same word you would use to say drive a car kap rot. I find myself taking on this habit too and seem to always be understood.

Mostly 'kháp' for me these days, but I do believe one should start with the correct pronunciation.

and it becomes the same word you would use to say drive a car kap rot

It's actually a different tone. ขับ รถ khàb ród takes the low tone, as opposed to คับ (which means "(too) tight" - as in เสือคับ sûea kháp - tight shirt/sweater... and takes the high tone).

[Kaoboi Bebobp]

I'm not much of a Thai speaker, but I am buckling down and learning now after my third trip to LOS. In my recent six-week trip, I don't believe I heard a single "kRap". Could be the company I keep . But seriously, not a single "r" in the polite male particle.

Which leads me to issue a sincere thanks for the above info and other threads in this language forum. Very well informed opinion here! I'm also very glad you folks add the Thai words in the Thai script. This is very, very helpful.

I will conquer this language one word at a time . . .

I have to say I find it fun to learn another language, which makes it sound like I do this all the time. Nope, although I also speak French. Thai is the first tonal language and first langauge period I've tried to learn in 25 years.