Emigrating To Thailand

[darbs]

My wife and myself would be most grateful if anyone could provide us with some information. Sorry if all this has been asked before but we are both new to the forum thing.....

We are both from England and are in our late thirties.

We have been given a chance to make a new start in Thailand, we are hoping for this to all take place by the summer of 2005.

We have been offered the opportunity to buy a bar with accommodation above it in Kata Noi, Phuket.

What are the rules at this time with regards to properties such as bars like this.

We both want to do this in the correct way but we don't know all the immigration rules.

With the sale of our house and belongings etc, we should be able to take with us approx. 3.5million baht.

My wife and myself are both hoping to start this new venture together.

What visas do we need to apply for and how long are they valid for?

How, when and where do we apply for work permits?

We wish to stay there permanently and make Thailand our home, eventually applying for residency and hopefully citizenship in the future.

Any information will be most appreciated.

[weko]

Sounds like a perfect dream, but be advised many farangs get ripped off over hear especially in the bar scene, my advice look into it deep and hard, it can be done but beware, and beware of Thai partners, not being downbeat about it but look into every aspect of it first. On the visa side i am not sure if you could even get a work permit owning a bar, multiple entry yes.

but there are also lots of farang bar owners hear that are successful.

good luck

[Marshy]

Darbs Im sure you you will get a few answers to your questions but probably not all you need or should know.

Go to the 1st 2nd & 4th sections in this forum---search through the topics that are relivent to your situation----alot of searching and reading I know but you will probably find its worth it.--- I cant give you any advice for im still trying to figure it myself. hope this helps

[Mr_Pedantic]

Most importantly put the bulk of your money into a UK Bank's high interest account, that you can keep track of online (First Direct do a good one and you can do same day withdrawals). Use your parents UK address as an address base.

Take enough cash to get settled and open a Thai bank account, don't buy/pay for anything until you've been here a couple of months or until the "being on holiday syndrome" has worn off. When entering into partnerships find a good English speaking agent don't let a prospective Thai partner find you one- it is probably his brother.

3.5m Baht is nothing in Thailand, if you plan to live to the same lifestyle as you currently do in England. Especially if you think it will last you 25 years until your pension starts to roll in.

Food or drink is the easiest trade to get started in; but the toughest to make any profit out of.

Watch out for those tricky Thai people, rip you off as soon as look at you or they'll know a friend that will.

Sorry to be all doom and gloom but for most, it is. There are the very few successful people but they are married to locals making the whole visa bit easier.

[Bluecat]

We have been given a chance to make a new start in Thailand, we are hoping for this to all take place by the summer of 2005.

We have been offered the opportunity to buy a bar with accommodation above it in Kata Noi, Phuket.

There are many, many "opportunities" to buy a bar in Thailand,...

Who gave you such chance? A farang or a Thai?

Are there any Thai partners involved?

What made you think it is a good deal?

Since you will be a couple of farangs running the bar, the minimum would be to speak Thai and be very well aware of the Thai "laws", do you?

Anyway, please read as much as you can on the subject and get as much information as possible on that bar before leaving England,...

[davethailand]

the most important thing is to have a good lawyer, have everything translated (a certified translation).

don't give power of attourny over come to thailand to pay and sign everything.

i can't remember everything off hand but i own a bar/club and have a work permit.

if you have any particular queries, i'll try and help.

[GuestHouse]

Advice I give to People Thinking of Moving to Thailand

This was written for a specific couple so please forgive me if some of it is not relevant , but it is based on my own experiences of over eleven years of living and working in Thailand.

Hi,

I'm pleased to offer some advice, it will be a bit general and I'll include a lot of the downfall (it's never all good news and it's never good to hear only the good news).

Your starting point should be to contact your nearest Thai Consulate, they have all the information and the (actual) requirements that you need to meet.

You can also contact www.pattayaexpatsclub.com

And www.thaivisa.com

What follows here is the mostly the down side and the things you need to take care of.

Me in Thailand.

I was assigned to Thailand by an American corporation.

Under a special treaty between the US and Thailand Americans and American companies are entitled to own (wholly own) a business in Thailand - No other nationalities are allowed to do so unless they meet the Thai Board of Investment requirements (BOI Approval). Both the treaty and the BOI approval give a company the right to employ a restricted number of foreigners and that is how I got my work permit/visas.

Note here, you need both a work permit and a visa. Working without a permit is extremely risky, it can, and often does, result in arrest and immediate imprisonment.

That risk is doubly worrisome if you have children.

Employment Opportunities.

I’m an engineer and I got assigned to site by chance, it wasn’t something I had planned. I can’t give you any real information on what opportunities there are for your profession, I can say that I have seen very few foreigners working in any Thai companies excluding those that are foreign owned.

The right to practice of most professions is controlled by law and certification in Thailand.

Most professions are able to find staff who are well educated and fully trained from among the Thai population.

The exceptions are highly specialist areas, again often catered for by multinational companies.

Money.

The serious stuff.

I have a double income, I’m paid a local living allowance of around US$1800/month which, while it doesn’t cover all my costs, does cover most. I’m also paid in Hard currency back home.

This is important because if at sometime you want to go home (see Residence) you need to have funds and a place to live. Money in Thailand in Thai currency will not be of much use.

As I say I more or less live on US$1800 but I live in a very modest house and I rarely drink. Importantly I my employers also give me a car, (taxed and insured), a fuel allowance, pension, health insurance and yearly flights home for me and my family. Without these (Insurance is a must) you have to figure on at least US$2200/month…. At least!

And that is without putting money away for back home.

Risks.

I have to include this because it is a very important part of living overseas.

The incidence of divorce back home is around 30%, the incidence of divorce among our expat assignees in Thailand is around 55%. (Almost double).

The reasons are many, dislocation from home and family, guys running off with local girls, women running off with other guys.

But my guess is the most common cause (and perhaps the cause of all the others above) is STRESS.

It can be extremely stressful, no, it is extremely stressful on a relationship to go live overseas in a totally foreign culture. This is only worse if there are money problems, only one partner is working or there are other relationship problems.

It is very typical for women to have difficulty settling in, especially if the husband is working (even if the wife is busy wit the kids). Thailand is a male orientated society, almost no provision is made for mothers and men are to a large extent treated as something special.

Questions to ask yourself.

To avoid making a mistake (and I am not saying that Thailand would be a mistake for you) you need to ask some questions of yourself.

Firstly and most importantly:

Why do you want to go to Thailand? You should be absolutely clear about this because when things go wrong (as they must from time to time) you both need to know why you have made the jump. No reasons are more valid than any others, but you must be clear what your reasons are.

Do you want to go for the same reasons and are those reasons compatible?

Are you talking to each other about this?

Are you both listening?

What is your long term plan and what are you going to do to achieve it?

If you ask these questions you will at least know what you are about. Believe me, I’ve met dozens who have failed in Thailand because they did not have a purpose in their lives.

STOP DON’T Gos.

The following is absolutely true.

If you leave home with an unresolved problem, it will grow, smolder and rot while you are in Thailand.

Recent Divorce or relationship breakdown (Past year).

Recent bereavement (Past two years)

Any kind of an addiction, particularly alcohol

Debt

If these figure in your recent life, sort them out or take time to get over them before you leave.

Making a go of it.

After eleven years in Thailand I have met people who did well and people who did very badly, most to be honest get by OK but wives tend to say they are glad to go home and would be reluctant to come back.

Of the people that make a go of it, ALL live very normal lives while in Thailand. They work hard and take part in the local community. They carry their lives and responsibilities to Thailand and live much as they would at home.

They ALL have purpose in their lives and almost all plan to leave after a spell of perhaps 2 or three years.

Residency.

In theory a foreigner can get a residence permit that allows them to live and stay in Thailand just like a Thai. In reality it is extremely difficult, almost impossible.

The Thais give a maximum of 200 residence permits to non Asians per year. As a foreigner you can apply after four continuous years in country. I know three people who have received these (all after over twenty years in country).

I have applied, five times, with the backing of my employers, a university and the local head of education (I'm not a teacher but he is a personal friend I met through the Lions Club).

I’ve been asked to reapply next year.

Without this document you will need a Resident B (Non-immigrant Visa) to be allowed to stay in Thailand and apply for a work permit. I have both the visa and the work permit and therefore do not need to do Visa runs.

Visa runs are regular (expensive and disruptive) trips across the boarder to get new entry visas. They are not a viable option for families.

Home Ownership.

You can own a condo, you cannot own a house or land.

Other Information.

I hope this has at least helped you understand the pitfalls, if you are going ahead with this plan and need advice on schools, housing or healthcare please feel free to write and ask for info.

There are expat societies that can help, most nationalities have their own clubs and societies i.e. there is a British Club, a Canadian society etc and there are various clubs that can give advice (see suggestions above).

Please do be careful though, Thailand often appeals to people who want to throw away responsibilities and cares (usually guys in their late forties and fifties), they’ll often tell you there are no cares, no problems. But then if their life objectives are cheap beer and cheep prostitutes, they will look at Thailand in a different light than the most of us.

As parents of young children we have to be a bit more careful.

Here are some absolute rules:

Never burn your bridges, you might not settle and you are very unlikely to get residence if you and your wife are both foreigners and both below retirement age.

Accept that any money you take to Thailand will stay in Thailand.

Nobody sells a business that is making money in Thailand.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Sorry it’s so negative, but without the support of friends and a community of other expats I’ve seen too many people mess it up.

[GuestHouse]

That might seem depressing reading but when you consider the following, it would be a disservice to tell you only the good news;

In the past eleven years I have witnessed:

A German guy who bought a plot of land, built a house and had it taken off him because he has no right to own land or a house.

An English guy who bought a condo that did not belong to the person that sold it, the owner later recovered their condo.

Another English Guy who was forced to sell a vintage car afer threats from a guy who just liked the car.

A guy who bought a small hotel that was full every time he went to look at it, but the Thai guests disapeared as soon as he had closed the deal and he later found out that the guests where the relatives and friends of the person who sold the hotel.

A guy who was forced out of business by threats from people he was taking business from, he was running a small convenience store.

The list goes on.

I strongly advise you to consider this idea of moving to Thailand until you have had time to learn a bit about what is involved.

And the first thing to do is to sit down with your wife and read the answers to your question together.

[Sunbelt Asia]

"What are the rules at this time with regards to properties such as bars like this."

You can own 49% of the business but you can control your investment even by being the minor partner by having more voting rights and being the Managing Director.

"What visas do we need to apply for and how long are they valid for?"

Non- immigration "B" visas. You can ask for muti entry one year. After you get the work permit, you then can apply for the one year " B" visa.

"How, when and where do we apply for work permits?"

Have a good lawyer. Our fee is 7,800 Baht + Vat per work permit. The company formation is 3,900 Baht. Tax ID and Corp ID is 3,000 Baht. One year Visa is 7,200 Baht. Government fee is 12,600 for a two million Baht company.

Our professional fee is 2,000 Baht per million Baht of planned acquisition for any due dilligence. Our fee for a 3.5 million business would be 7,000 Baht. I've looked at over 8,000 business books in my career of being a business broker so you can be sure I've seen most everything and what to ask for.

If we have to travel to Phuket, you are billed only for our flight expense.

At closing...for a thirteen page detailed asset purchase agreement is 8,900 Baht. Our fee if you choose to do a share transfer agreement is 18,500 Baht. ( Very rarely would we ever reco to acquire a company by buying their shares... depends on the risk/reward on a very long term lease and renegotiation with the landlord)

We have only flat fees. No extra or hidden fees!

We welcome the chance to help you in this important decision.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[email protected]

[Sunbelt Asia]

Nobody sells a business that is making money in Thailand.

Guesthouse,

Everything you wrote was fantastic and correct except for this one sentence. That I must strongly disagree with. I've been a business broker for over 20 years. My opinion is biased but their is a reason for it. I know the facts and love to overcome this myth. I know many and I mean many good businesses are available to be owned if they are for sale. Why are they selling if they are so good?

Retirement, divorce, partnership disputes, relocation back to their homeland, health. All human reasons. Do we ever accept a business if its losing money? Only if the seller is willing to sell at 50% of his original investment and its in a good location.

Certainly the odds are much higher acquiring a business than starting one up. Its all about doing due diligence and looking at 10-15 opportunities. The cream will rise to the top. The percentage of success to failure in business are inverse for an acquisition versus a start up. I'm talking about a business that has been researched inside and out. Professional advice that you can trust is invaluable.

A German guy who bought a plot of land, built a house and had it taken off him because he has no right to own land or a house.

I know for a fact without knowing him, he did not have a good lawyer.

An English guy who bought a condo that did not belong to the person that sold it, the owner later recovered their condo.

Stupidity!

A guy who bought a small hotel that was full every time he went to look at it, but the Thai guests disapeared as soon as he had closed the deal and he later found out that the guests where the relatives and friends of the person who sold the hotel.

An observation period is one tool of looking at a business. Did he not ask to see the credit card invoices? Bank statements as well? I guarantee he did no due diligence. Madness.

A guy who was forced out of business by threats from people he was taking business from, he was running a small convenience store.

Not saying this couldn't happen but certainly this is very uncommon. First time I've heard of this and I own many businesses here.

www.sunbeltasia.com

[GuestHouse]

Sunbelt.

I do not disagree with anything you said, and I might myself consider using your services should I ever decide to run my own business.

BUT

The advice I give is exactly what it says... the bad news.

I've seen too many people ripped off or had their lives wrecked in otherways while in Thailand.

I'm just giving the bad news because too many people give only the good news..

This is what I mean about sources of bad advice

Please do be careful though, Thailand often appeals to people who want to throw away responsibilities and cares (usually guys in their late forties and fifties), they’ll often tell you there are no cares, no problems. But then if their life objectives are cheap beer and cheep prostitutes, they will look at Thailand in a different light than the most of us.

If people walked into the the office of Sunbelt Asia, having read and thought about the advice I have given then I am quite certain they would be prepared to discuss more of the issues they need to consider and you would be far better placed to give them help.

There is one part of my advice that Sunbelt Asia or anyone else can not help with and that is The Reasons for going to Thailand and the Reasons not to go.

The advice I give about talking to each other and ensuring that your reasons for going are the same is extremely valid.

So too is the advice I have given about reasons not to go.

But, non of us can make people listen to that advice.

I've given out this advice to perhaps a few dozens of people, I have only ever had two people get back to me.

One was a couple who are now working in Singapore, they took a look at Thailand and decided on Singers.

The other was a wife who found the advice on her husband's compputer, I had sent it some moths earlier and he had not discussed it with her.

I do not know if that couple went to Thailand but I would put my money on it that they did not make a go of it if they did go.

Not because I want them to fail but because the evdince of my own eyes has taught me that the rules of making a go or failing as a couple in Thailand are broadly within the advice I have given.

Yes get professional advice for law and business, but the advice I give is a start point of the quesiotns to ask your legal advisor and a start point to ask yourselves.

[wamberal]

If you have never been to Thailand, please at least live there for a while before deciding you would want to stay, let alone whether you are going to bet your future on making money out of a business there. There are good things about living in Thailand, most of which are easily understood from a distance. The bad things take a while to get to know about. For goodness' sake, hasten slowly.

[GuestHouse]

I meant to add.

If you do decide to start a business, buy a business or buy any property in Thailand get a Lawyer.

Your own Lawyer

Not a Lawyer that the seller introduced to you

Not a Lawyer that any Thai person introduced to you

Not a Lawyer from the same town as where you are doing business

And prefareably a lawyer from one of the international companies in Bangkok that deal with foreigners.

Sunbelt Asia might verywell be a good place to start if you are buying down Phuket way.

But be aware, Thai lawyers are not the same as lawyers back home, they might be cheaper but they might verywell be on the take.

[GuestHouse]

Having read my last post I should also add, I am not suggesting Sunbelt Asia are in the same camp as a few crooked Thai law firms, far from it, I have heared nothing but good news about Sunbelt Asia.

But Thai law firms are not controlled in the same way as UK, US or European law firms.

[astral]

Remember the basic rule:

Do not invest more in Thailand, than you are prepared to walk away from!!

[darbs]

Thanks everyone for your advice, very helpful.

The bar/accommodation I refer to is currently owned by an English friend of mine.

He is a rather wealthy business man here in the U.K. He owns an excellent Thai restaurant and has set his sights on having a chain of 12 Thai restaurants here. He opens his second one in just a couple of months.

During a conversation with him one evening I enquired if he had any contacts etc over in Thailand that would be useful to me with regards to emigrating. He asked me how serious I was...this is when he told me of the bar in Kata Noi.

He has insisted that I have to take a look at it before he even considers selling it to me. This we are going to do for 3 weeks in July/August. He has also arranged gfor someone to meet us to show us other properties, so as to leave our options open.

The only reason he is selling is because he is too busy now with his businesses over here. It is up & running & is managed at the moment by a Thai girl for him. What it needs he tells me is someone with some "get up & go" about them to make a go of it. He has told me that it won't make us wealthy but will provide an income with which we would could live in Thailand comfortably. So long as we're willing to put the effort in.He has also offered to help us in any way he can. I have known him now for a good 5 years and he is a very honest & genuine person.

Becoming wealthy is not a reason for us to come to Thailand. My wife and I have become more & more disillusioned with the U.K. & we just want a slower, less stressful way of life.

We have never felt more comfortable anywhere than during the 3 weeks we spent while we were on our holidays in LOS. So we decided that was going to be our new home.

[eric1000]

a very risky proposition for a newbie to LOS . kata has a short season BTW ..

reposted from soc.culture.thai

***********************************

Letters to the editor

Pattaya Mail 3. January 2002

Be careful before buying a beer bar

Dear Sir:

Your newspaper’s classifieds section “Business Opportunities”

regularly features a multitude of ads inserted by beer bar owners who

want to sell or lease out their property. Invariably, the ads state

how terrific the location of the bar is, how enormous business has

been, and how well-established the place is, enjoying a constant

stream of customers. Then again, the key money and/or monthly rent

sometimes seems incredibly low for such a terrific deal. Why would

anyone give up a business which generates handsome profits? Even

relocation back to Europe or illness, as often mentioned in the ads,

don’t justify such a move, as one can assign a trustworthy caretaker

to continue running the venue on a profit-sharing basis or similar.

Operating a bar involves a considerable overhead and, as long-time

owners can tell you, has always been an extraordinarily tough

business. The sheer mirage of becoming the “King of the Local

Nightlife” by investing in or even buying such a venue might be luring

for some naive foreigners but, sadly, this sweet dream can quickly

turn into a real nightmare.

While the Pattaya Mail certainly isn’t responsible for the

truthfulness of its classified ads, I think it would be a benevolent

idea if you’d regularly print a little box on the respective page

warning prospective buyers that they’d need to carefully check the

bar’s balance sheets, consult a lawyer, and generally refrain from

getting into the bar business altogether if they don’t have any

previous experience. Unfortunately, it is often people who cannot

afford losing money who put up their life savings lured by promises of

quick and easy cash and, therefore, are prime targets for all sorts of

crooks, whether in Thailand or anywhere else in the world.

Thomas Schmid

Bangkok

[eric1000]

every year 1000s of tourists return from Thailand infatuated and obsessed ,then want to leave home sell up and invest all in thailand, and most of them wind up BROKE !

Look at yourself in the mirror and hit yourself over the head with a cricket bat , maybe you may some sense before you do something VERY stupid.

********************************

Stickman's guide to Bangkok

Reader's Submissions:

Don't Move To Thailand

By Roscoe Johnson

I have some advice to any westerners out there contemplating moving to

Thailand.

If you are rich and are sensible with money, then go ahead. If an

international company or similar offers you a high salary job in

Thailand then fine. If your are retired or have steady funds from

aboard and want to live modestly on those funds, go ahead, but watch

yourself. And if you're a young dude travelling around the world, and

you want to spend some time in Thailand teaching or whatever for

experience, then that's OK too.

If you don't fall into these categories then "don't" consider it for a

moment. Many middle aged westerners in particular (including

professionals) like the idea of living there, having a business or

making some money and "enjoying life" in Thailand. But very few make

it. (Forget about western restaurant or bar owners and alike you might

meet in Thailand boasting about their good life there. It is common for

faltering foreigners to keep up appearances). Mostly they end up broke

or crazed, sometimes both, then they leave. Thai business, visa and

residency laws get you in the end. The "Thai way" will get you in the

end. Have a minor run-in with a wealthy or important Thai and your

status and possibly your life will be at risk. Their whole culture is

geared around making sure that foreigners pursuing individual efforts

are not successful. It's ingrained in them from an early age to believe

that they are the never-colonized master race of Asia (yes they really

think that) and their mythology runs so deep you'll never budge it.

Remember, in Thailand you'll never have any real business, legal or

ownership rights. But Thai's can go to your country (very possibly) and

buy and own anything they can get their hands on (because of the more

tolerant business laws). To Thai's, this is just further evidence of

how clever they are, and how foolish are the foreigners to go to

Thailand.

Remember too, that Thailand is dominated by a comparatively small

military-industrial elite. They have all the power and most of the

wealth in the country. The idea of western foreigners living in the

country and achieving wealth and status through individual

entrepreneurial efforts is seen as a threat to the hegemony that they

have over the Thai underclass - the bulk of the population. For this

reason, it is never allowed to happen.

Think of Thailand, for westerners, as being a bit like a casino. A

casino is a place with a touch of excitement, the lure of good fortune /

the good life, and a place for fun, even with a bit of a risk. Go to a

casino every now and then for fun and that's OK. Go there everyday

all-day and you will ultimately lose, because the House Advantage will

always get you. So it is in Thailand. The Thai "House Advantage" will

get you. They make sure of it.

Of course, if going to Thailand with all your money and slowly losing it

and ending up teaching English for a pittance (because that's about all

you can do), either illegally or working legally but being treated like

a serf by Thai institutions, appeals to you then go ahead. And running

around the country several times a year getting visas, or always being

at the mercy of authorities on visa matters might be your bag. If so,

then go ahead, at least you'll be able to spend your nights at cheap

restaurants sharing your impoverishment and frustration with other

exploited western teachers. If not, think seriously.

In case you are thinking, let me say that I am not a former go-go bar

owner gone bust, I have not lost my all doing business with Thai's, no I

haven't been cheated of everything by a bar-girl, no I haven't been

reduced to the indignity of teaching English for a pittance. I have my

own money, have spent a lot of time in Thailand, and have done some

business there, have observed the experiences of a lot of foreigners,

can see what goes on, and have enough concern to want to tell others

about it.

If my words can prevent even one westerner of modest means from selling

up and going to "enjoy life" in Thailand (and getting shafted in the

end) then that will be something. Don't make the mistake of thinking

that as a foreigner (even with professional skills) you can "make a

contribution" to Thailand, no matter how good your intentions or needed

your skills may be. Your contribution will *never* be welcomed, only

your money. There is a saying in Thai that captures it well: "farang

roo mark my dee" - foreigners who know too much [about Thailand] are no

good. Gullible tourists, however, are great.

So, go to Thailand as a tourist if you like, enjoy what you enjoy there,

but don't be taken in by the culture or people, as many westerners have,

and don't under any circumstances give up anything back home to go and

stay there unless you are financially secure for life, or know exactly

what you are doing.

There is a tradition of resident foreigners in Thailand not telling you

the truth about the country because they don't like to admit to

themselves and to others about the mistake they have made in moving

there. But especially now, with the financial mess Thailand has got

itself into through a mixture of greed, incompetence, arrogance and

corruption, and the prospect of difficult times ahead (to say the least)

it is time for plain speaking.

A final comment to anyone who strongly disagrees with these comments.

Unless you have lived, worked and conducted business in Thailand for

many years, I'm not interested. The views of "oh how can you say that,

Thailand is really great" 2 week tourists carry no weight with those of

us who know Thailand and Thai's well.

---

Source: http://www.stickmanbangkok.com

[roamer]

My wife and myself would be most grateful if anyone could provide us with some information. Sorry if all this has been asked before but we are both new to the forum thing.....

We are both from England and are in our late thirties.

We have been given a chance to make a new start in Thailand, we are hoping for this to all take place by the summer of 2005.

We have been offered the opportunity to buy a bar with accommodation above it in Kata Noi, Phuket.

What are the rules at this time with regards to properties such as bars like this.

We both want to do this in the correct way but we don't know all the immigration rules.

With the sale of our house and belongings etc, we should be able to take with us approx. 3.5million baht.

My wife and myself are both hoping to start this new venture together.

What visas do we need to apply for and how long are they valid for?

How, when and where do we apply for work permits?

We wish to stay there permanently and make Thailand our home, eventually applying for residency and hopefully citizenship in the future.

Any information will be most appreciated.

Honest opinion ? I think your a little too "straight" to survive in the Thai bar scene. Its just a gut feeling from your posts. I'd be delighted if you could prove me wrong but don't invest more than you can afford to lose in doing so. In the UK the largest amount of new startup failures is in the restaurant/bar trade, in Thailand the odds will be stacked up against you even more. I don't think Thailand is a particularly hard jungle to operate in...provided your expert in what your doing, have managed to operate your trade elsewhere, and know how to manouvre your way around some very tricky situations.

Bottom line. Some can, some can't.