30 year business lease, Thai owner refuses to leave the property

[Foozool]

3 hours ago, madhav said:

One of the 3 directors of the company is Thai, our managers are all Thai, but it makes not difference. The police won't do anything. Money or no money, it is not about that. They simply won't do their job. 

 

We even installed security cameras and have and endless amount of video footage of her breaking and entering stealing both customers and resort property. Also have footage of her intentionally damaging the property. We show the new footage to the police on a monthly basis and make reports etc and they still don't care. There are so many police reports we could write a novel. 

 

I believe she has told them "It's all her land so how can she steal what is already hers?"

 

We were thinking to hire some tough security and basically tell them if she shows up just drag her out but they won't do it. 

 

There is is some strange idea in Thai culture about her having a Tabian Baan and being the land owner that puts them off, irrespective of the business having leased the land and everything on it.

 

I guess we could lodge a law suit but we all know how long this will take until an actual decision is made, at least 5 years. Meanwhile the fun and games will continue and the police won't do a thing. 

You can just consult with a layer to see where you are standing. 

Perhaps the lawyer can find what the problem is. 

But you don't have to go through the process.

[MyFriend You]

18 hours ago, Foozool said:

Is the house has mentioned in your lease ? Or you just leased the land only ? 

If the bungalow is not in your lease, she has right to stay in her house. 

Some people sell their land. There are trees at the time you saw the land, there will be no trees after you buy it. They say : we sold the land only, not trees.

Go figure.

 

This actually happened to me in Muptaput, large beautiful stand of old growth bamboo on the property we bought, when the land was transferred, no more bamboo, just the short stumps where they were cut.  Old lady told me "I sold you the land, but not the bamboo"   It was stacked on my side of the property line. so I had it tied all together and refused anyone to come on the land to pick it up - she had sold it too a neighbor down the road who  wanted to use it to build a house on his property - I proposed that he could remove the bamboo for a price, 100 baht each piece and no trucks, hand carry piece by piece.  He got his money back from the land owner, the bamboo stayed on my ppty for almost a year, finally she sold it to me at 1/4 of what it was worth.  She should have had it delivered before the land transfer was done.  Made a great chicken coop.  So the Fuhlung can win from time to time, just have to play their game the way they do.

[Naam]

16 minutes ago, TunnelRat69 said:

So the Fuhlung can win from time to time, just have to play their game the way they do.

Fuhlung added as no. 33 to the list of Thaivisa Farang spellings

[manarak]

On 14.6.2017 at 11:12 AM, madhav said:

Never thought of this option before. Interesting. Have you ever heard of a successful outcome doing this? Or is this just an idea?

I would try the army as well.

 

I am surprised though that in 10 years of business you weren't able to enlist the services of a dependable lawyer? A lawyer who knows what he does should have no problems dealing with such a situation. A versatile lawyer would be able to speak to the army, the village elder and offering a price of how much to pay off the police, so you would have multiple options.

[Foozool]

2 hours ago, TunnelRat69 said:

This actually happened to me in Muptaput, large beautiful stand of old growth bamboo on the property we bought, when the land was transferred, no more bamboo, just the short stumps where they were cut.  Old lady told me "I sold you the land, but not the bamboo"   It was stacked on my side of the property line. so I had it tied all together and refused anyone to come on the land to pick it up - she had sold it too a neighbor down the road who  wanted to use it to build a house on his property - I proposed that he could remove the bamboo for a price, 100 baht each piece and no trucks, hand carry piece by piece.  He got his money back from the land owner, the bamboo stayed on my ppty for almost a year, finally she sold it to me at 1/4 of what it was worth.  She should have had it delivered before the land transfer was done.  Made a great chicken coop.  So the Fuhlung can win from time to time, just have to play their game the way they do.

You did real good, 

some of them think they are very smart, but perhaps smart for their own kind. 

[HooHaa]

with a 30 year lease you should have it registered on the land title and none of this would be an issue.

 

 

[JacChang]

The only thing that will save this is for Section 44 to be invoked.

[MyFriend You]

Wait a minute, you have had this property for ten years right??

I have read all the responses and yours as well.

 

Is there a USFRUCT allowing you to do what you wish for the property and  did she sign it??  If so, you are in the right side of the Law.

 

That said, I would simply start a project in the area she is living in her shack and tear it down.  It is allowed - you have been far too nice in this entire episode..............just do it and you  will see them running for the hills. 

 

If the contract you have with the family is binding,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,grow a pair of balls and just reclaim which is rightly your company's  .....-  Problem I see  is you are trying to be too accomodating, or a good leaser, neighbor  -  she is playing the "I am just a poor Thai Woman and the Fuhlung company is trying to abuse me!!!"   but in actuality, she is the one that is abusing you, you are letting her 'get away with murder' as we say in America.  Give her a 30 day notice to evacuate the property, then tear it down.  It works for Thai's, why not your company.......................just my 50 cents worth.        but I have been living in SE Asia for over 40 years, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, and know you ave to fight fire with fire...............stop trying to apply Western values to your problem, think like an Asian and you will not only gain respect, but you will win.   Do you think for one minute that, if your Company was 100%  Thai owned  they would put up with that kind of shit??        Grow a pair and take her to court, or exercise your right to reclaim the land she is stealing from you.

Nuff Said

Edited June 15, 2017 by TunnelRat69

[observer90210]

rent out a space from 7 pm to 10 am next day to high up and boozed teens, next to her home, to be used as a party area, provide a generous supply of 500W speakers and booze with the package including the latest tubes of Justin Biber and Britney Spears....within 1 month she should leave

[oldhippy]

16 minutes ago, observer90210 said:

rent out a space from 7 pm to 10 am next day to high up and boozed teens, next to her home, to be used as a party area, provide a generous supply of 500W speakers and booze with the package including the latest tubes of Justin Biber and Britney Spears....within 1 month she should leave

Yeah right. Noise will chase away Thais.

[observer90210]

10 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Yeah right. Noise will chase away Thais.

any other suggestion otherwise?

[oldhippy]

Just now, observer90210 said:

any other suggestion otherwise?

Not really.

I live in a rather quiet nice place, but I do not count on this to last.

If shit happens, it happens.

That is the price we pay for living the dream - at such a low cost that is unimaginable back home.

Back home I would not even dream of having my own swimming pool...

[observer90210]

4 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

Not really.

I live in a rather quiet nice place, but I do not count on this to last.

If shit happens, it happens.

That is the price we pay for living the dream - at such a low cost that is unimaginable back home.

Back home I would not even dream of having my own swimming pool...

well all I wish you in that case,  is may the shit stay away from you!!....and enjoy that nice pool!

[madhav]

We have tried giving notice and then showing up with a team to remove her stuff/do renovations/demolish the bungalow etc etc, however it's always the same outcome.

 

The police show up and start shouting at us and threatening our team of workers etc.

 

So what can we do? We go on to explain our legal right, show the lease agreement, explain the 'law' etc etc... but they don't care. They won't listen. Grow a set of balls and shout back? Ignore them and get thrown in jail? I can tell you it is not a nice experience to have the police shout and threaten you and your workers. 

 

Will definitely contact the army and see what they say. If they are on our side and are physically there to support us when the  police show up, maybe that will suffice and her corrupt policeman will run with their tail between their legs.

 

As for consulting lawyers, of course we have done this. Take her to court? Already done. As explained it is a lengthy drawn out process which can take 10 years. She may even do a few months jail time or pay a small fine after it ends. However then what? She will get out and then the whole process can and no doubt will start all over again.  

 

One problem in Thailand that some keyboard warriors don't realise is the Thai culture of 'suing back'. Not long after they get a letter in the mail, you will see your name on a letter with a law suit and a court date. And here in Thailand you have to remember you are guilty until proven innocent. So therefore your passport is held and you can't travel until the case is finalised proving your innocence which can take years. This 'suing back' game can go on indefinitely with infinite number of fictitious charges. 

Edited June 15, 2017 by madhav

[oldhippy]

Is relocating an option?

 

And what is it that this woman wants? Money? Face?

Is there room to negotiate with her? - that would be unfair yes, but you could always hope for pay back time in the future?

Clearly you will lose - but have you tried to make the losses as small as possible?

And yes, try the army, maybe you get lucky.

 

I sympathize with you - while fearing something similar might happen to me.....

Lawlessness is part of living in Thailand.

 

 

 

 

[madhav]

Called the 1111 hotline, they were of no help at all. They said to get a lawyer. 

 

However what help can a lawyer be to the current situation? They always say the same thing, begin a new civil case. This takes many years and costs a fortune. 

 

We just need someone with legal authority to support us to remove her from the property and forbid her from ever entering again. 

[madhav]

Next plan is to hire a security guard with police connections and instruct to them refuse her entry to the property. We will try to get some police to back us on this and then basically tell her if she wants to enter the property SHE needs to prove it in court she is allowed to, because from our side she is not.

[oldhippy]

Maybe try to speak to an army official or even police higher up, face to face, rather than by phone or mail?

Use the face thing to your advantage.... ask Whoever is in charge what HE can do to resolve the situation.

 

Actually, let the talking be done on your behalf by a Thai that you trust - Thais are better at this face thing and they have a life time experience of waiing, groveling and brown nosing.

 

 

 

[oldhippy]

And please do not get the impression that I think that  I have the answers - I am only trying to come up with useful suggestions.

 

 

Have you been able to find out what that woman wants? Money, face, the joy of harassing you?

You might solve the problem by indulging her.....

 

 

Edited June 16, 2017 by oldhippy
edit

[Briggsy]

21 minutes ago, oldhippy said:

police higher up

This is the answer, I suspect.

[Khun Jean]

Buy her a ticket to Switserland. She will not be able to refuse. :)

The when she gets back there is nothing to go back to.

Just kidding.

 

You are on Samui, about the worst place to be when you have to get the services from the government/police.

The military is one hope, another might be the Ombudsman.

 

Personally i would just deduct a certain amount from the lease and describre it as "1 bungalow per month 20.000 baht".

Edited June 19, 2017 by Khun Jean

[Bassosa]

On 2017-6-15 at 9:21 AM, alfieconn said:

To be fair it's one of the joy's of being on Samui where the local's run the Island and say what goes and the police run scared !

Until those locals turn against you...

 

Rule of law is better, me thinks.

 

 

[Frank67]

Just an idea: hire some actor to play ghost and haunt her for a few nights...

[Bassosa]

20 minutes ago, Frank67 said:

Just an idea: hire some actor to play ghost and haunt her for a few nights...

Brilliant. Sounds silly but may just work.

[madhav]

Update:

 

We hired some badass security and put a lock on the door knob making it impossible to gain entry into the bungalow without breaking the door. She showed up at about 9pm last night and security refused her entry.

 

She came back with 5 people and pushed her way through and took pics and then eventually left after 15 mins.

 

At 11am comes back with the police and the security asks them to sit in reception under the cctv to discuss it all. We had prepared all the documents to show the police (lease agreement, DBD records, copy of chanote etc) and when the policeman went through it all with them using those documents, he basically summed up that because of the business lease she will need to go to her lawyer and get some kind of proof if she wants to gain access. She asked if the police can assist to get inside by breaking the door and the police refused and encouraged to go via the proper channels. After about 25 mins they all left defeated. 

 

Overall it was quite satisfying to see a just outcome. 

[happylarry]

Well done mate great to hear. I take it you made the Police aware that they were on tv?

HL

[madhav]

Update 2:

 

Yesterday she showed up in the late afternoon with 2 ‘police’, a couple of labourers and proceeded to grind the lock off the door. We explained the situation to the police that she had no permission and then she pulled out some irrelevant out of date paperwork. We said this paperwork is irrelevant and doesn’t give any permission to enter the property and she is trespassing. Of course she said the proper papers are inside the room. I soon realised the police were not there to actually help at all.

 

I ended up instructing the workers in Thai to stop their job and get out of the property which resulted in a death threat and a ‘This is Thailand’ speech from the foreman. The police actually stepped in and asked him and his workers to leave.

 

At that point the crazy land owner and her sister were still there and started screaming in English all kinds of profanity to scare and disturb our customers. The sister slapped me, but the police didn’t see it.

 

She managed to get access inside the room again and sat in front of the door. I had a choice to drag her out but figured it would not be the best thing to do so I left it at that. At that point the police left.

 

We isolated the breaker and turned off the power to the room and she eventually came out and left at about 6.30pm. We put another lock on the door and went to the police station to report trespass. Police were cooperative and said if she still attempts access after we show the report then we can call them direct (gave personal numbers) and they will put her in jail for a few days. I have no doubt she will try again soon so will see how good their promise is.

 

We also called the security company and said we will hire 3-5 guards and they must restrict access to her and her family/workers using force if necessary otherwise we will terminate their contract. They agreed.

 

Lets see what happens today.

 

[BEVUP]

Just one thing 

U have a property leased to a company from this woman, so as far as i know it states that you can only hold 49% & the rest for Thais (unless other wise )

Going by your replies it seems like your the only one dealing with this - where are your Thai parteners who should know exactly how to deal with this

[oldhippy]

On 01/07/2017 at 8:07 AM, madhav said:

Update 2:

 

Yesterday she showed up in the late afternoon with 2 ‘police’, a couple of labourers and proceeded to grind the lock off the door. We explained the situation to the police that she had no permission and then she pulled out some irrelevant out of date paperwork. We said this paperwork is irrelevant and doesn’t give any permission to enter the property and she is trespassing. Of course she said the proper papers are inside the room. I soon realised the police were not there to actually help at all.

 

I ended up instructing the workers in Thai to stop their job and get out of the property which resulted in a death threat and a ‘This is Thailand’ speech from the foreman. The police actually stepped in and asked him and his workers to leave.

 

At that point the crazy land owner and her sister were still there and started screaming in English all kinds of profanity to scare and disturb our customers. The sister slapped me, but the police didn’t see it.

 

She managed to get access inside the room again and sat in front of the door. I had a choice to drag her out but figured it would not be the best thing to do so I left it at that. At that point the police left.

 

We isolated the breaker and turned off the power to the room and she eventually came out and left at about 6.30pm. We put another lock on the door and went to the police station to report trespass. Police were cooperative and said if she still attempts access after we show the report then we can call them direct (gave personal numbers) and they will put her in jail for a few days. I have no doubt she will try again soon so will see how good their promise is.

 

We also called the security company and said we will hire 3-5 guards and they must restrict access to her and her family/workers using force if necessary otherwise we will terminate their contract. They agreed.

 

Lets see what happens today.

 

Still alive?

News?

 

[madhav]

On 10/07/2017 at 1:03 PM, oldhippy said:

Still alive?

News?

 

After she left and we locked the door, later on that night she somehow got back in (through a window?). She stayed the night and then called the police in the morning saying she was locked in and couldnt get out. We reopened the door and then she went straight to the police station and made a report and now we have 2 new law suits against us (one criminal and one civil). Part of the clause states that she must be allowed access to the room until the case is complete. The Thai law is guilty until proven innocent. 

 

It is not over yet but yeah, a bit of a setback.