Latimer Road fire: Huge fire engulfs west London flats

[Grouse]

Modern fridges use r600 refrigerant which is n-butane and highly inflammable. Previously we used r134 which is a Fluoro-hydrocarbon with a very high ignition temperature (over 1000C) but damaged the ozone layer. We REALLY need to think about all this....

Edited June 17, 2017 by Grouse

[metisdead]

An offensive post has been removed as well as the reply.  A post containing unsubstantiated speculation has been removed. 

[zoza]

13 minutes ago, JamJar said:

 

 

Wow.....

 

Are you really missing the simple point that a fire in one apartment, should not have engulfed the whole building.

That is the issue here. 

 

Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.

double wow....if he cannot see that it is pointless playing with him....enough for me.

[Grouse]

It will be a typical "Swiss cheese" situation. Multiple holes had to line up for the tragedy to happen

 

1) was there an fridge with r600?

 

2) did it leak

 

3) was there ignition from a thermostat?

 

4) were there adjacent combustables

 

5) was there fire fighting gear nearby

 

6) were the building materials flammable

 

7) were there fire breaks

 

8) were there fire suppression systems installed 

 

9) were doors and walls 1hour FR?

 

10) were staircases clear?

 

and on and on......

[JamJar]

Do yourself a favour, Flustered.

 

Just have a quick run-through of the posts on this single page of the Grenfell Action Group before making futher comment.

 

https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/2016/11/20/kctmo-playing-with-fire/

 

and then this;

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/grenfell-tower-fire-blogger-threatened-legal-action-kensington-and-chelsea-council-health-safety-a7792346.html

 

 

Then perhaps you will understand why the anger against the council and why the people want an independent inquest and not a public inquiry.

[Basil B]

4 hours ago, 7by7 said:

But all the indications are that no one caused the fire; it was an accident, started by a fridge catching fire.

If it was a fridge then there should certainly look at the design and materials used in minute detail, LBF recon they get on average one fire a week attributed to a fridge, I wonder how this relates to tumble dryers?

 

If it does turn out to be one of the tumble dryers which are on service recall to which the manufacturer was dragging there feet, then they could be be a big case for corporate manslaughter, but they probably would not be in the dock on their own, do not forget the cladding is at issue here:

• Well documented resident concerns.
• Design specks, surely some should have put the brakes on the project that did not start until 2-3 years after the Dubai Tamweel Tower fire which seems to be similar construction and materials.
• Were all materials used to the correct specifications. 

[sandrabbit]

7 hours ago, JamJar said:

 

 

Sometimes you need to engage brain before your knee jerk response.

Once again, I will tell you that much of this was known before the disaster. The powers that be just kicked it down the road.

Why do you think that people like myself were able to post relevant info so quickly?

 

I was the first to post the companies involved and how quickly they took pages down in order to hide their involvement.

Because of the work of people like myself, some of them saw the action as futile and self incriminating and put them back up.

I was also the first here to highlight the dodgy practices of the Baileys, which has now been picked up by the newspapers;  http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4611268/Grenfell-cladding-bosses-2-5m-tax-avoidance.html

 

I could go on. But no need. I post facts, not conjecture.

 

Whereas I have no idea as to why you are posting at all. Do you have any knowledge with regard to this situation?

I'm guessing that you do not....but here you are posting away. Trolling in my opinion. But it is a discussion forum and I am confident that my posting of relevant information will sweep away your meaningless opinion.

 

 

 

I think a lot of people haven't read the whole thread, you were brilliant finding the relevant information.

[Here It Is]

2 hours ago, Basil B said:

If it was a fridge then there should certainly look at the design and materials used in minute detail, LBF recon they get on average one fire a week attributed to a fridge, I wonder how this relates to tumble dryers?

 

If it does turn out to be one of the tumble dryers which are on service recall to which the manufacturer was dragging there feet, then they could be be a big case for corporate manslaughter, but they probably would not be in the dock on their own, do not forget the cladding is at issue here:

• Well documented resident concerns.
• Design specks, surely some should have put the brakes on the project that did not start until 2-3 years after the Dubai Tamweel Tower fire which seems to be similar construction and materials.
• Were all materials used to the correct specifications. 

Good point but fires will always start.  A small domestic fire shouldn't consume almost the entire block and that's where the cladding comes into play.

[Here It Is]

2 minutes ago, Flustered said:

What did the findings of the LFB say. Oh yes, they have not posted them yet.

Looks like Lilly is busy today with some other stuff.

 

Anyway, LFB are busy looking for the cremated remains of the poor unfortunates hence the delay in producing a report. 

[Prbkk]

42 minutes ago, Here It Is said:

Good point but fires will always start.  A small domestic fire shouldn't consume almost the entire block and that's where the cladding comes into play.

Indeed. Of course the truth will out in the inquiry and blame will be apportioned. At least we can be confident of that. Small comfort to those affected and also to those who may be living in any "time bomb" blocks of similar poor design, shoddy maintenance/renovation, ludicrous fire management procedures. These councils seem to be very good at the meaningless touchy-freely, feel-good plans about inclusion, or multiculturalism and diversity, or community engagement, or public art space, or safe zones/rooms, prayer facilities.....not so great when it comes to bread and butter safety issues. 

[Here It Is]

38 minutes ago, Prbkk said:

Indeed. Of course the truth will out in the inquiry and blame will be apportioned. At least we can be confident of that. Small comfort to those affected and also to those who may be living in any "time bomb" blocks of similar poor design, shoddy maintenance/renovation, ludicrous fire management procedures. These councils seem to be very good at the meaningless touchy-freely, feel-good plans about inclusion, or multiculturalism and diversity, or community engagement, or public art space, or safe zones/rooms, prayer facilities.....not so great when it comes to bread and butter safety issues. 

You mean life and death are not as important as inclusion, diversity, safe zones and prayer rooms?

 

Let me think about this ... okay, safety standards went out of the window due to the block being a council owned property [let's forget about the management company], as no one else would get away with this BS?

[Here It Is]

News just in, the government are threatening to take charge of the situation just four days after the inferno.  Not bad by any means.

[Here It Is]

9 minutes ago, JamJar said:

The fact is Jeremy Corbyn , Sadiq Khan and even Lily Allen got their backsides down there without having to be prompted.

Not for nefarious reasons, I should add.

[Here It Is]

44 minutes ago, JamJar said:

The fact is Jeremy Corbyn , Sadiq Khan and even Lily Allen got their backsides down there without having to be prompted.

 

33 minutes ago, Here It Is said:

Not for nefarious reasons, I should add.

Brooklyn was in tears for the 'send a celeb' feature.  

[HauptmannUK]

Source of fire is hardly relevant. The fact is that a large apartment building will suffer multiple fires over several decades of use. Buildings have to be designed and maintained on the basis that fires are a relatively common event. We need to

adopt European fire safety safety standards as a matter of urgency.

 

It also seems the cladding was installed against specific manufactures advice that it should not be used above 10m high due to fire risk.  The contractors and council who ignored this advice (in black and white) and approved the work have a lot to answer for. Criminal behaviour by any standards.

Edited June 18, 2017 by HauptmannUK

[metisdead]

Off topic personal comment posts and replies have been removed.  

[evadgib]

Grenfell Tower: Statement from the Prime Minister : 17 June 2017

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-40312939/london-fire-queen-holds-minute-s-silence-for-victims

[7by7]

6 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

Source of fire is hardly relevant. The fact is that a large apartment building will suffer multiple fires over several decades of use. Buildings have to be designed and maintained on the basis that fires are a relatively common event. We need to

adopt European fire safety safety standards as a matter of urgency.

 

It also seems the cladding was installed against specific manufactures advice that it should not be used above 10m high due to fire risk.  The contractors and council who ignored this advice (in black and white) and approved the work have a lot to answer for. Criminal behaviour by any standards.

 I've already posted about a similar fire in a block in Shepherds Bush last year; this one caused by a faulty tumble dryer.

 

In that instance the fire only spread to four other flats and was extinguished by the LFB within two hours.

 

The main difference between the two buildings? The Shepherds Bush block did not have any external cladding.

 

Fire crews extinguish blaze at Shepherd's Bush tower block

 

Shepherd's Bush tower block fire caused by faulty tumble dryer

[sandrabbit]

7 hours ago, 7by7 said:

 I've already posted about a similar fire in a block in Shepherds Bush last year; this one caused by a faulty tumble dryer.

 

In that instance the fire only spread to four other flats and was extinguished by the LFB within two hours.

 

The main difference between the two buildings? The Shepherds Bush block did not have any external cladding.

 

Fire crews extinguish blaze at Shepherd's Bush tower block

 

Shepherd's Bush tower block fire caused by faulty tumble dryer

it's already been posted about the cladding, rain block, and how it can be be a fire risk. search JamJar 's comments, he found loads of relevant information. 

Edited June 18, 2017 by sandrabbit

[sandrabbit]

13 hours ago, HauptmannUK said:

Source of fire is hardly relevant. The fact is that a large apartment building will suffer multiple fires over several decades of use. Buildings have to be designed and maintained on the basis that fires are a relatively common event. We need to

adopt European fire safety safety standards as a matter of urgency.

 

It also seems the cladding was installed against specific manufactures advice that it should not be used above 10m high due to fire risk.  The contractors and council who ignored this advice (in black and white) and approved the work have a lot to answer for. Criminal behaviour by any standards.

there will be corporate manslaughter but European rules are cherry picked, the UK used to have the strongest electricity regulations in the world but the EU brought them down to their level. Why didn't the EU enforce the beer purity laws on the UK, something which have been good for consumers?.

[ExpatOilWorker]

8 hours ago, sandrabbit said:

there will be corporate manslaughter but European rules are cherry picked, the UK used to have the strongest electricity regulations in the world but the EU brought them down to their level. Why didn't the EU enforce the beer purity laws on the UK, something which have been good for consumers?.

You mean up to European standards. Looks like the UK had a lot to learn before they left the EU.

 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/why-is-cladding-banned-in-the-us-and-germany-used-on-buildings-in-the-uk-6712578

[evadgib]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/details-of-grenfell-tower-residents-discretionary-fund

[Airbagwill]

On 16/06/2017 at 10:33 PM, sandrabbit said:

no that was the facing, I was talking about what was behind after the facing had been burned away.

 

ok, haven't been watching news today but to me the actual insulation looked intact from the vids I was looking at and the fire just bypassed it. let me catch up sorry.

The fire spread up the outside through the panels that contained a flammable insulation material. 

As I pointed out days ago this will mean that various buildings throughout the UK will have to be evacuated.

[JamJar]

As I expected, the government set very narrow Terms of Reference. Even the inquiry chairman seems to think so.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/29/grenfell-inquiry-chairman-martin-moore-bick

 

 

[dick dasterdly]

Public inquiries always take years....  Not sure why, other than realising that public anger will have died down by then?

 

They also end up largely exonerating 'important' people - or at least not providing enough evidence for them to be prosecuted.

 

But perhaps I'm wrong and there are examples of public inquires carrying out their investigations within a reasonable time frame - and 'important/wealthy' people being prosecuted?

 

Edit - In short, they're a 'sop' to the public IMO.

Edited July 1, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[JamJar]

10 minutes ago, dick dasterdly said:

Public inquiries always take years....  Not sure why, other than realising that public anger will have died down by then?

 

They also end up largely exonerating 'important' people - or at least not providing enough evidence for them to be prosecuted.

 

But perhaps I'm wrong and there are examples of public inquires carrying out their investigations within a reasonable time frame - and 'important/wealthy' people being prosecuted?

 

Edit - In short, they're a 'sop' to the public IMO.

 

Doesn't quite live up to her initial statement on the 15th of June;

 

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/theresa-may-announces-full-public-inquiry-into-grenfell-tower-tragedy-a3565936.html#

 

Quote

Theresa May today announced a judge-led public inquiry into the Grenfell Tower fire tragedy.

The Prime Minister visited the scene this morning where she met firefighter chiefs who explained the scale of the inferno and how it had swept through the tower block.

Speaking after her return to No10, she said: “Rightly, people want answers. That is why I am today ordering a full public inquiry into this disaster. We need to know what happened.

“We owe that to the families, to the people who have lost loved ones, friends and the homes in which they lived.”

 

They are just trying it on at every stage, to see with what they can get away. They only do something when their hand is forced. Really quite disgusting.

[Airbagwill]

It now seems they are deliberately drip-releasing the death toll to avoid more protests.

Just look at the councillors and you can see that this is a straight class struggle.

[Grouse]

Truth coming out now

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/one-month-on-how-a-litany-of-failures-led-to-grenfell-disaster-kw56lzgbc

 

There's gonna a be a hangin'

[dick dasterdly]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Truth coming out now

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/one-month-on-how-a-litany-of-failures-led-to-grenfell-disaster-kw56lzgbc

 

There's gonna a be a hangin'

I hope so (not literally of course!), but the various people responsible for this disaster must receive prison sentences for making decisions that clearly cared far more about saving money than whether the cheaper materials were safe.

 

I'd also like to know whether some of the money spent was to make the building less of an eye-sore for local, wealthy residents.

Edited July 12, 2017 by dick dasterdly

[ddavidovsky]

1 hour ago, Grouse said:

Truth coming out now

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/one-month-on-how-a-litany-of-failures-led-to-grenfell-disaster-kw56lzgbc

 

There's gonna a be a hangin'

Unfortunately, can't read the full article without logging in.

 

It will be hard to prosecute. The law would have to specifically outlaw the use of this specific material in this specific situation, and I understand that it doesn't. If regulation is left to discretion at various points down the line, then  you would have to prove that someone was fully cognisant of the real level of risk. Fact is, nobody really knew because there's no precedent for this actual event. If the fire experts knew, then they are the ones guilty of not making sure the regulation was enforced. But we don't prosecute our fire experts - they're all heroes of course.