UAE says it is headed for 'long estrangement' with Qatar

[ilostmypassword]

15 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

              It's being reported by mainstream media, that Kushner asked for a loan of $500 million from a Quatari heavy, and was turned down.  That was just before the Trump/Kushner visit to S.Arabia.  Perhaps Kushner took his anger - and used it as leverage to force Arab countries to bully Qatar.   Note:  Arab countries are always having problems with each other, but it's very rare for several countries to gang up on one.  I can't think of another instance, can you?   Even when there are wars, like the Iraq/Iran war, or a concerted attack on Afghanistan by the US in 2002, other Arab countries just sat back and watched from the sidelines.   As far as I can see, this sustained ganging up on / bullying Qatar is unprecedented. 

 

 

Actually, it's not as simple as that. The Qatari lender agreed to lend Kushner 500 million as part of a much larger loan package on condition that Kushner could come up with the rest of the money somewhere else. He didn't and the Qatari just stuck to his side of the deal.  I have no use for Kushner but I don't think it's fair to saddle him with this particular problem. Unless we know for a fact that he pushed his father-in-law to side with the UAE et alii in this imbroglio.

[YetAnother]

the demands of the 4 countries, not listed here, were quite severe, so much so that i got the impression they put up an impossible scenario for Qatar, so they didnt really want a reconciliation

[Morch]

32 minutes ago, YetAnother said:

the demands of the 4 countries, not listed here, were quite severe, so much so that i got the impression they put up an impossible scenario for Qatar, so they didnt really want a reconciliation

 

The demands, however, were not initially made public, which would have left both sides enough face saving maneuvering space. In that sense, they were more of an opening position, if a tough one at that. After they were leaked, each side dug in.

[Morch]

 

@boomerangutang

 

 

Not quite. Kusnher asked for the loan back in 2015. The Qataris agreed to provide partial finance, if he could raise the rest elsewhere. Said "elsewhere" was a Chinese company, who after deliberations withdrew from the deal (that was late March/early April 2016). As he couldn't raise the additional funds, the Qataris either canceled the deal or put it on hold.

 

You may read a whole lot into it, but there's little by way of actual support for your thesis. Especially not when it comes to the bit about Kushner supposedly using his anger as leverage to force Arab countries into something. Kushner's anger, if there was one, would not be much of a leverage with regard to said Arab countries. Certainly not meaningful enough to "force" then into anything.

 

Note: you keep repeating the view that Arab countries do not "gang up on one" as a mantra, without providing any support.Taking a unified political position and diplomatic steps against other Arab countries who's conduct seems out of line is not "rare". If you have trouble thinking about one, here are a couple - Iraq's invading Kuwait, Egypt signing peace agreements with Israel. These instances do not spiral into outright war, which would conform to the current state of things. That you call it "unprecedented" is bizarre.

 

[boomerangutang]

                       Iraq invading and taking Kuwait - had a very few Arab countries tangibly countering the Iraqis.  Notably Saudi AF pilots flying a few token missions.   

 

                      Coalitions against Israel don't count, as I specified ARAB disputes, and knowingly did not include Israel in the mix.  Heck, the Israeli soccer team doesn't even play in the Middle Eastern sphere of contests.  It plays in the European theater.  

 

                        I call the current situation 'unprecedented', because it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but I challenge you to point at a prior scenario where several Arab countries openly ganged up on an Arab country.  Again, I'm not talking about war, but instead: in relation to diplomatic, free press, and/or business issues.

[Andaman Al]

17 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

                       Iraq invading and taking Kuwait - had a very few Arab countries tangibly countering the Iraqis.  Notably Saudi AF pilots flying a few token missions.   

 

                      Coalitions against Israel don't count, as I specified ARAB disputes, and knowingly did not include Israel in the mix.  Heck, the Israeli soccer team doesn't even play in the Middle Eastern sphere of contests.  It plays in the European theater.  

 

                        I call the current situation 'unprecedented', because it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but I challenge you to point at a prior scenario where several Arab countries openly ganged up on an Arab country.  Again, I'm not talking about war, but instead: in relation to diplomatic, free press, and/or business issues.

I kid you not, during GW1 I picked up about 15 Iraqi prisoners that had been virtually abandoned in fox holes for around 3 months (by their officers etc). They were enlisted guys who were either extremely young (i figure less than 18) or in their late 50's early 60's. Their officers had told these poor bar stewards that they were protecting Iraq from the Israeli's (they knew nothing of Americans, Brits and Saudi's etc). We gave them spare NBC kits to dress in (temps were around zero) and some food shared from our ration packs and they started crying. They were told they would be murdered and eaten by Israeli's if they let any past! They had not bargained on any form of humanity being shown when they were captured/surrendered. NEVER trust what a politician and Government man tells you - EVER!

Edited July 17, 2017 by Andaman Al

[boomerangutang]

1 minute ago, Andaman Al said:

I kid you not, during GW1 I picked up about 15 Iraqi prisoners that had been virtually abandoned in fox holes for around 3 months. They were enlisted guys who were either extremely young (i figure less than 18) or in their late 50's early 60's. Their officers had told these poor bar stewards that they were protecting Iraq from the Israeli's (they knew nothing of Americans, Brits and Saudi's etc). We gave them spare NBC kits to dress in (temps were around zero) and some food shared from our ration packs and they started crying. They were told they would be murdered and eaten by Israeli's if they let any past! They had not bargained on any form of humanity being shown when they were captured/surrendered. NEVER trust what a politician and Government man tells you - EVER!

                                  Thanks for sharing. It's always interesting to get 1st-hand accounts.  Iraqi soldiers were so easily duped because they grew up in a very primitive environment.  Not much different than N.Korea today, China in the 1960's, or Japan in the 1930's.  When I say 'very primitive', I'm referring to myopic education, not just from parents (who were also brainwashed while growing up), but also from their school system and government.  

 

                        Probably the one most important thing that can contribute to sanity/reason in places like the M.East, is for children to be able to access info.  That's why I think the internet is a good thing.   50 to 100 years ago, a similar niche was filled by encyclopedias.  When I was a kid, my house had two sets of encyclopedias.  One was new, and the other was an ancient set of Britannica.  I used to lie on the floor and go through them, from page 1 on through to the end, volume after volume.  I'm not saying I'm 'a brain' (childish term for being smart), but I was exposed to a whole lot of interesting info about the world.

 

                          The opposite is happening today in most parts of the world.  That's why ignorance, fear, paranoia, jealousy and hatred continues to be so widespread.   It's not just the little people in poor parts of the world.   There's also a lot of ignorance, fear, paranoia and hatred in the Trump WH.   .....and with Saudi princes.  

 

                       S.Arabia still won't allow any Jewish person to visit their sand-filled country.  Men officially keep women as chattel, who aren't allowed to do many regular things without a male 'guardian'.   If a woman's father, brothers, husband aren't around to escort her to the mall or to buy a car (using the male's name, of course. And she can't drive it.), then if the woman has a son, that boy is designated as her official guardian and escort.   In other words, S.Arabia still officially forces women to be 2nd class citizens, deprived of many rights that women elsewhere take for granted..

 

 

 

 

 

[Morch]

2 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

                       Iraq invading and taking Kuwait - had a very few Arab countries tangibly countering the Iraqis.  Notably Saudi AF pilots flying a few token missions.   

 

                      Coalitions against Israel don't count, as I specified ARAB disputes, and knowingly did not include Israel in the mix.  Heck, the Israeli soccer team doesn't even play in the Middle Eastern sphere of contests.  It plays in the European theater.  

 

                        I call the current situation 'unprecedented', because it is. Maybe I'm wrong, but I challenge you to point at a prior scenario where several Arab countries openly ganged up on an Arab country.  Again, I'm not talking about war, but instead: in relation to diplomatic, free press, and/or business issues.

 

You may want to read the post replied to again. The reference was to diplomatic actions, boycotts and such - not to direct military action. On these parameters, Arab countries singling out one of their own is not uncommon. So same examples apply - Arab countries did oppose Saddam's move, regardless of actual participation in the fighting. And the second reference holds, as the country singled out was Egypt, for  breaking off with the herd. The soccer example is relevant, the country in question is Egypt. Now, if you'd cited the soccer games vs. Egypt being cancelled etc, that's be more to the point.

 

Even the current conflagration is just a rehash of similar past instances between the sides. Your "challenge" was already answered with the two examples cited above.

[Dave67]

 Vodaphone network went down yesterday for about 15 hours due to "Technical issues".There are only 2 networks in Qatar so caused a bit of chaos. Wonder if that's more hacking?. I doubt either side would admit to it. Meanwhile, life goes on as normal.

[boomerangutang]

7 hours ago, Dave67 said:

 Vodaphone network went down yesterday for about 15 hours due to "Technical issues".There are only 2 networks in Qatar so caused a bit of chaos. Wonder if that's more hacking?. I doubt either side would admit to it. Meanwhile, life goes on as normal.

So, you're in Qatar.  Interesting.  Got any other insights? ....since it appears you're on the scene there.

 

My only connection was:  I was in the Qatari airport twice in December '16.  Even tho I had several hours to kill (perhaps a poor choice of words) officials there wouldn't let me roam around outside the airport.  No surprise. (though once I had several hours to kill in Seoul airport, and I just walked out, into the adjoining town, strolled around for a few hours, and walked back into the airport.  I jest not.   Not one person/official challenged me, going or coming). All true.

 

Anyhow, Qatari airport was cold as a fridge and its internet didn't work.  Not one window in the whole place.  

[Dave67]

3 minutes ago, boomerangutang said:

So, you're in Qatar.  Interesting.  Got any other insights? ....since it appears you're on the scene there.

 

My only connection was:  I was in the Qatari airport twice in December '16.  Even tho I had several hours to kill (perhaps a poor choice of words) officials there wouldn't let me roam around outside the airport.  No surprise. (though once I had several hours to kill in Seoul airport, and I just walked out, into the adjoining town, strolled around for a few hours, and walked back into the airport.  I jest not.   Not one person/official challenged me, going or coming). All true.

 

Anyhow, Qatari airport was cold as a fridge and its internet didn't work.  Not one window in the whole place.  

Basically, nothing has changed since the embargo except the brand of food you are buying not Saudi or UAE anymore. Support for Emir is strong I'll put some pictures up that I put on another thread on this topic. These images are every where

[coulson]

 Vodaphone network went down yesterday for about 15 hours due to "Technical issues".There are only 2 networks in Qatar so caused a bit of chaos. Wonder if that's more hacking?. I doubt either side would admit to it. Meanwhile, life goes on as normal.

 

That's not uncommon, happened about 4 or 5 times when I was there after they switched to 4g and on occasion was around times of significant diplomatic visits or suspected threats.

 

However, given its data infrastructure is quite young and limited in competition you would be forgiven for believing it took 15 hours to sort out (not to mention the ineffectiveness of the service providers technicians)

 

[ilostmypassword]

The blockade of Qatar is failing

"As with their disastrous war in Yemen, Saudi Arabia and the UAE radically overstated their prospects for success and failed to have a plausible plan B in case things did not go to plan," wrote Marc Lynch, a Middle East expert at George Washington University. "The anti-Qatar quartet seems to have overestimated Qatari fears of isolation from the GCC and their own ability to inflict harm on their neighbor."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/07/18/the-blockade-of-qatar-is-failing/?utm_term=.d9e8e1ad31c3

 

Jared of Arabia (Saudi Crown Prince) has shot himself in the other foot.

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by ilostmypassword

[boomerangutang]

Is it a bit ironic that Jared, an active Jew, is bosom buddies with Saudi nobility who won't let Jews in their country.

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, boomerangutang said:

Is it a bit ironic that Jared, an active Jew, is bosom buddies with Saudi nobility who won't let Jews in their country.

Is he really that friendly with them?  He did a lot of the advance work for Trump's trip including negotiations, but I don't see any evidence to suggest that there was any personal connection before or after.  There are definitely salient similarities between him and the crown prince, but genuine friendship?  Who knows?

[Morch]

2 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

The blockade of Qatar is failing

"As with their disastrous war in Yemen, Saudi Arabia and the UAE radically overstated their prospects for success and failed to have a plausible plan B in case things did not go to plan," wrote Marc Lynch, a Middle East expert at George Washington University. "The anti-Qatar quartet seems to have overestimated Qatari fears of isolation from the GCC and their own ability to inflict harm on their neighbor."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/07/18/the-blockade-of-qatar-is-failing/?utm_term=.d9e8e1ad31c3

 

Jared of Arabia (Saudi Crown Prince) has shot himself in the other foot.

 

 

That's one way of looking at it (and I would recommend reading the linked Lynch's analysis over the above). But applying the same rationale, seems like Qatar underestimated the reactions of its neighbors. The bottom line being that such miscalculations are rather common when it comes to regional powers.

[Morch]

2 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

Is it a bit ironic that Jared, an active Jew, is bosom buddies with Saudi nobility who won't let Jews in their country.

 

I dunno that Jared is "bossom  buddies" with Saudi nobility. If anything, it seems that his personal business dealings had more to do with Qatar. As for Saudi Arabia not letting Jews in the country - thing again. Not referencing religious worship, but business related and and official duties, yes. 

 

 

 

 

[Dave67]

3 hours ago, coulson said:

 

That's not uncommon, happened about 4 or 5 times when I was there after they switched to 4g and on occasion was around times of significant diplomatic visits or suspected threats.

 

However, given its data infrastructure is quite young and limited in competition you would be forgiven for believing it took 15 hours to sort out (not to mention the ineffectiveness of the service providers technicians)

 

Still going on keeps going out and coming back. Went to Mall today Ooreedo shop was rammed. Vodaphone will lose lots of customers. Driver reckons we'll all get free minutes when it ends

 

[Dave67]

3 hours ago, ilostmypassword said:

The blockade of Qatar is failing

"As with their disastrous war in Yemen, Saudi Arabia and the UAE radically overstated their prospects for success and failed to have a plausible plan B in case things did not go to plan," wrote Marc Lynch, a Middle East expert at George Washington University. "The anti-Qatar quartet seems to have overestimated Qatari fears of isolation from the GCC and their own ability to inflict harm on their neighbor."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/07/18/the-blockade-of-qatar-is-failing/?utm_term=.d9e8e1ad31c3

 

Jared of Arabia (Saudi Crown Prince) has shot himself in the other foot.

 

It is failing miserably. Totaly got it wrong with judgement of Qatar's reaction, which is quite calm and reasoned

[Dave67]

Interesting article about US and Qatari embargo

 

http://www.middle-east-online.com/english/?id=83922

[Dave67]

I used to think a world cup in Qatar was a farce. But now living in Doha and working on Doha Metro I see the amount of construction going on and it is impressive. Like the Docklands in the 80s times 1000.The weather this time of year is a killer 50+ and very high humidity so hot that all outside work is stopped from 11-30 to 15-30 by law. Lots of people including myself have had heat exhaustion and heat stroke. Being outside in the morning. There could never have been a world cup here in the Summer. Anyone who has been in the Middle East at this time of year will know that. 

[Dave67]

Touch

 

Doha: Vodafone Qatar, an affiliate of Vodafone Group, said on Tuesday that despite working throughout the night their network is still down and the company has promised to announce a compensation plan to the customers, once the network is restored.

“A compensation plan will be announced within 24 hours of restoration. The whole Vodafone organization is committed to regaining customer trust and satisfaction,” they tweeted.

The network is down from last morning.

 

 

 

https://thepeninsulaqatar.com/article/18/07/2017/Vodafone-network-is-still-down-company-promises-compensation

 

 

Edited July 18, 2017 by Dave67

[Morch]

27 minutes ago, Dave67 said:

Touch

 

Doha: Vodafone Qatar, an affiliate of Vodafone Group, said on Tuesday that despite working throughout the night their network is still down and the company has promised to announce a compensation plan to the customers, once the network is restored.

“A compensation plan will be announced within 24 hours of restoration. The whole Vodafone organization is committed to regaining customer trust and satisfaction,” they tweeted.

The network is down from last morning.

 

 

 

https://thepeninsulaqatar.com/article/18/07/2017/Vodafone-network-is-still-down-company-promises-compensation

 

 

 

Luckily, Qatar Airways website is still on. Don't know if it's the current crisis, but some fine traveling arrangements to be had, at very nice prices.

[coulson]

 

Luckily, Qatar Airways website is still on. Don't know if it's the current crisis, but some fine traveling arrangements to be had, at very nice prices.

 

I just cancelled a pre booked ticket to Europe and rebooked a nice deal for the same trip, will be an easy upgrade too [emoji6]

 

[Dave67]

32 minutes ago, Morch said:

 

Luckily, Qatar Airways website is still on. Don't know if it's the current crisis, but some fine traveling arrangements to be had, at very nice prices.

Fares are not going down if you are flying east the option of going cheaper 2 stop route from Bahrain, Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Thai have gone. If you are living in Qatar there no choice other than Qatari Airways which is still a 6-hour flight to Thailand with a swerve around UAE.air space. Good airline though. Have a look at the Al Maha service VIP treatment an option at Arrivals and or departure in Qatar

 

[Dave67]

15 minutes ago, coulson said:

 

I just cancelled a pre booked ticket to Europe and rebooked a nice deal for the same trip, will be an easy upgrade too

 

Europe is a different story I would assume flight time from Europe through Qatar to Thailand etc has gone up, They also have competition in Europe when they have none in Qatar

[coulson]

Europe is a different story I would assume flight time from Europe through Qatar to Thailand etc has gone up, They also have competition in Europe when they have none in Qatar

 

Negligible. It takes as much time to take off based on wind conditions and navigate traffic through ever changing airspace, then negotiate a landing route based on local air traffic control. They will make it on schedule. So far none of the flights affected (with exception of the local one's)

 

It's business as usual, except now cheaper due to transit passengers who opt for another carrier.

 

Huge loss of business for QAR, look around on your next flight, lots if room!

 

If you book your return flights originating from Doha, it's always more expensive, you're the captive audience, those prices will never change!

 

But just keep building miles because when you leave, they're gold for long haul options down the road [emoji6]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ilostmypassword]

Well, look who's blinking first:

Qatar’s Critics Scale Back Demands in Diplomatic Bid

Four Arab nations locked in a dispute with Qatar said Tuesday that they have revised and curtailed their list of demands for Doha, in a diplomatic overture aimed at moving toward a solution to the standoff...

Among the more prominent changes to the Arab quartet’s was a decision to stop calling for Qatar to shut down the Al Jazeera broadcasting network, or to expel people deemed problematic, such as clerics with extremist Islamic views.

The new list also avoids imposing deadlines and casts a broader approach, asking Qatar to refrain from inciting violence and to aid regional and international efforts to combat terrorism. 

http://www.cetusnews.com/news/Qatar’s-Critics-Scale-Back-Demands-in-Diplomatic-Bid-.ByL2U2w3B-.html

This is a link to an article that originally appeared in the Wall Street Journal. No firewall here.

I wonder how long Jared of Arabia is going to hold on to his position.

[Dave67]

1 minute ago, ilostmypassword said:

Well, look who's blinking first:

Qatar’s Critics Scale Back Demands in Diplomatic Bid

Four Arab nations locked in a dispute with Qatar said Tuesday that they have revised and curtailed their list of demands for Doha, in a diplomatic overture aimed at moving toward a solution to the standoff...

Among the more prominent changes to the Arab quartet’s was a decision to stop calling for Qatar to shut down the Al Jazeera broadcasting network, or to expel people deemed problematic, such as clerics with extremist Islamic views.

The new list also avoids imposing deadlines and casts a broader approach, asking Qatar to refrain from inciting violence and to aid regional and international efforts to combat terrorism. 

http://www.cetusnews.com/news/Qatar’s-Critics-Scale-Back-Demands-in-Diplomatic-Bid-.ByL2U2w3B-.html

This is a link to an article that originally appeared in the Wall Street Journal. No firewall here.

I wonder how long Jared of Arabia is going to hold on to his position.

I knew Qatar would not back down and Saudis would make fools of themselves. Posted that throughout the embargo

[ilostmypassword]

Just now, Dave67 said:

I knew Qatar would not back down and Saudis would make fools of themselves. Posted that throughout the embargo

I can't say I went that far but I was dubious of claims by some that Qatar was in a relatively weak position and would acquiesce in some face-saving manner.