China says it wants to 'maintain stability' in disputed South China Sea

[boomerangutang]

10 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

China is claiming the South China Sea, and China is certainly not claiming the other lands that you have said. Their claims to the South China Sea are a lot more legitimate than most people on ThaiVisa think. They have no legitimate claims to Africa, Papua NG or Antartica, that's why no claims have been made.
China's disputes with Vietnam ? Okay, the Paracel Islands. They are just as close to China as they are to Vietnam. And archeology (from wikipedia) basically says that China got to the Paracel Islands before Vietnam did. To suggest that China's claim is just as reasonable as Vietnam's claim will be putting it lightly.
What about the rest of the islands on the South China Sea ? Okay, China claimed them before Britain and France turned up in the late 1800s. China did not bother to formally announce ownership to Britain and France at the time. If China had done that, well, there would be no dispute today. Do bear in mind that, Britain and France did not dispute any of China's borders when first turning up in the Far East. That's like saying "Asian countries did not dispute the borders inside Europe when those Asian countries first went to Europe".

                  China is renown for making bogus claims on territories that aren't theirs.  They've been doing it since they invaded and took over Tibet.  Any child can take a crude map and draw a dashed line on it. The 9-dash map is worse than a child's doodle.  It's dangerous, it commandeers other countries' territories, and it could trigger major military conflict.   Even if none of that happens, China has already been destroying coral atolls a mile a minute, and pouring thousands of tons of concrete on whatever little bits of coral are left.  China is to environmentalism what a herd of elephants is to lawn maintenance.   In nearly every part of the world where there are still some fish swimming around, there are open clashes with Chinese fishing vessels which have been militarized and have Chinese navy escorts.   

 

9 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

You want to talk about a military coalition between the USA and various SE Asian countries ?  Got to stop China ? Okay, the Philipinnes is/was massively involved in the dispute with China. The Philipinnes, they already have (or did have) a massive military pact with Washington. But what's happening today ?  Look, we're simply not going to see the Philipinnes and Washington, fighting together, fighting against China.  The Philipinnes is benefitting enormously from trade with China, plus vast potential tourism revenue. Thailand is already flooded with Chinese tourists, I think the Philipinnes will be flooded by Chinese tourists as well, in the next few years. It's sensible for Duterte to stop the disputes with China, and rake in the benefits from Beijing. That's what Duterte is doing. There is going to be no fighting between China and the Philipinnes.
And Vietnam ? No.  There's people in Washington who still remember the Vietnam War. The Vietnamese who were there during the war, they're still in charge today. The media doesn't call them the Vietcong, but today's Vietnamese are from the Vietcong. Ho Chi Minh, he's still a national hero in Vietnam.

Americans feel a kinship with VN, more so than with China.  US is even closer with Phils. 

[craigt3365]

15 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

That Nine Dash map ??  

Do please note, the map came out in 1947.  The Republic of China drew the map. Okay, in 1949, the communists in China won the war, and gave China a new name, the Peoples' Republic of China. Republic of China went to Taiwan, and carried on calling themselves Republic of China. They're actually called Republic of China, Taiwan.

Yes, Taiwan today claims the South China Sea, yes, using the map that they produced. China, as in the Peoples' Republic of China, is using the same map. Notice how people don't wish to blast Taiwan for using the map. And notice how Taiwan is backed by Washington. Washington is not interested in condemning the map, Washington doesn't want to antagonise Taiwan. 


Do you believe the stuff written in wikipedia about the Paracel Islands ? Do you believe that archeology practically shows that China got to the Paracel Islands before Vietnam ?  Do you reckon, if China got there before Vietnam, well, China's claim is legitimate ?

About the Philipinnes. Do you feel, that it's their right (their freedom) to not pursue their claims, if they feel this way ?  Is it sensible for them to look at trade and tourism from China, and then not pursue their caims ?

The Nine Dash Line map is irrelevant.  It's not internationally recognized and even China has not filed a formal and specifically defined claim to the areas.  It means nothing except to those in China who are using it to steal territory from other sovereign nations.

 

Amazing you still defend this.  Are you Chinese? LOL

[boomerangutang]

I could take a line drawing of the Pacific Ocean, and draw 9 fat dashes around it, ....or maybe 17 dashes, whatever....   does that mean all the islands, including Hawaii, belong to me?  Excuse me while I get a piece of paper and start drawing my map - proving my ownership of every island between Baja California and Papua New Guinea.  Oh boy, I'm going to be rich and powerful! 

[NanLaew]

Since 2013, the seismic surveying of block 136-03 by Talisman, which is needed to define any subsequent drilling program, was postponed year after year due to the Vietnamese governments acquiescence in the face of threatened trade sanctions by the Chinese and active survey vessel harassment offshore. It was only around the time of Repsol's acquisition of Talisman's interests in 2015 that the Vietnamese government signed-off on all the permissions and the survey was carried out without any of the threatened Chinese interference beyond infrequent monitoring by a Chinese Coastguard vessel. Now that the data interpretation is done, initial exploration drilling has indicated a significant gas field... and triggered renewed Chinese belligerence.

 

Earlier this year, ExxonMobil reaffirmed their commitment to explore for and produce gas from their concession in block 118 which is a lot farther north and a lot nearer to mainland China, let alone the latter's artificial islands in the Paracels. They commenced exploration drilling in 2011 but have faced technical challenges and delays due to the nature of the gas-bearing formations as well as the global market downturn. Murphy Oil, another American oil company, has very isolated deep water concessions in blocks 144 and 145 about 150 nm southeast of ExxonMobil's blocks and almost totally falling inside China's artificial 9-dash line. Murphy carried out their preliminary seismic survey also in 2015 and were harassed by the Chinese navy. The infamous Chinese rig HD-981 drilling in adjacent block 143 commenced within a few days of Murphy's seismic survey completion. The Chinese drilled a dry hole, what is called a 'duster', based on their interpretation of seismic data acquired about 3 years earlier by an American contractor. Rather ironically, that American contractor is proscribed from tendering for any Vietnamese seismic survey work due to their working for the Chinese. Murphy then deferred any further seismic exploration, mainly due to the aforementioned market uncertainty but did pursue some innovative and less 'in-you-face' exploration techniques. They are completing the amalgamation of all these disparate data sources and appear to be quietly optimistic but in a similar way as Talisman kept their cards close to their chest prior to their 2015 foray, they are rather circumspect in claiming anything significant or the exact location thereof.

 

It would appear that China's exploration model in the disputed area consists of waiting for Vietnam's foreign exploration partners to actually find and define a target before they ramp up the rhetoric or as in this case, openly threaten Vietnam with a military action. Repsol is a Spanish company with a mid-east partner whereas ExxonMobil and Murphy are both American. Vietnam has traditionally offered these 'frontier' blocks to either neophyte Vietnam exploration or American exploration partners. Maybe they see that as some sort of protection from the abject, random harassment that prevailed offshore between 2008 and 2011. Back then, Chinese marine agency vessels actively disrupted seismic surveys, damaging gear under tow and exposing the survey vessel to a high potential for total loss of equipment and the crew to serious injuries. Videos of similar Chinese acts of 'seamanship' as exhibited during the early phases of the HD-981 incident are available online.

 

The appended map is from July 2015. China's 9-dash line is probably omitted for clarity but I would like to think it's because it has no legal grounding anyway.

 

 

This image below is from May 2015.

 

Edited July 28, 2017 by NanLaew

[Ricardo]

2 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

I could take a line drawing of the Pacific Ocean, and draw 9 fat dashes around it, ....or maybe 17 dashes, whatever....   does that mean all the islands, including Hawaii, belong to me?  Excuse me while I get a piece of paper and start drawing my map - proving my ownership of every island between Baja California and Papua New Guinea.  Oh boy, I'm going to be rich and powerful! 

 

But hands-off Australia, as I've already got a map with the dashes I drew round it, filed in a box-file in my study at home !

 

On the other hand, I don't have long-range nukes, like China does.

[NanLaew]

22 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

That Nine Dash map ??  

Do please note, the map came out in 1947.  The Republic of China drew the map. Okay, in 1949, the communists in China won the war, and gave China a new name, the Peoples' Republic of China. Republic of China went to Taiwan, and carried on calling themselves Republic of China. They're actually called Republic of China, Taiwan.

Yes, Taiwan today claims the South China Sea, yes, using the map that they produced. China, as in the Peoples' Republic of China, is using the same map. Notice how people don't wish to blast Taiwan for using the map. And notice how Taiwan is backed by Washington. Washington is not interested in condemning the map, Washington doesn't want to antagonise Taiwan. 

Taiwan's raison d'etre isn't recognized by Washington.

 

"In the Joint Communique, the United States recognized the Government of the People's Republic of China as the sole legal government of China, acknowledging the Chinese position that there is but one China and Taiwan is part of China."

 

Remember the brand new POTUS getting the mainlanders panties all in a bunch when he accepted a call and spoke on the phone with the Taiwanese President? I'd still like to know the genius that set that up.

 

Anyway, a fair bit of obfuscation there but someone else has pointed that out. So, moving right along...

 

22 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

Do you believe the stuff written in wikipedia about the Paracel Islands ? Do you believe that archeology practically shows that China got to the Paracel Islands before Vietnam ?  Do you reckon, if China got there before Vietnam, well, China's claim is legitimate ?

Well... when there's nobody still alive to say it wasn't so and since all claimants were remiss in not writing down their island claims way back when, who is to say the Chinese are not happily pulling archeological artifacts out of their asses to bolster their far-fetched claims? I mean boomerangutang is already working on his annexation of the greater part of the Pacific based on the same, flawed and totally illegal claim to something that is ultimately impossible to prove. The point is, until Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia and Philippines started exploring and coming up with proven oil and gas production in the area, the Chinese hadn't bothered to mention their island claims beyond the odd, low-key diplomatic memo and statutory re-issue of the 9-dash map. Now that neighboring nations are flexing their own economic muscle and defining their own oil and gas reserves, they are delaying a possibly inevitable need to be supplicant to China's oil and gas resources. China doesn't want their neighbors to be energy self-sufficient. They want vassal states and they want that now.

 

22 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

About the Philipinnes. Do you feel, that it's their right (their freedom) to not pursue their claims, if they feel this way ?  Is it sensible for them to look at trade and tourism from China, and then not pursue their caims ?

Unfortunately the Philippines has followed and even less consistent path than Vietnam when it comes to confronting China. For years, their own parliament has told oil and gas companies to sit on their hands and even Duterte has indicated being happy to embrace China's 'divide and conquer' strategy when it comes to resolving any claims. The UN subscribes to a unilateral binding agreement which the Chinese know is firmly grounded in law and will rightly prevent them getting what they want. So they have a rather disparate but ultimately unified mission in pursuing separate 'agreements' with individual nations. It really cannot be coincidence that in the face of a the global economic downturn, countries like Thailand, Vietnam and Philippines are seeing year-on-year. ten-fold increases in Chinese tourism visitors? Again, more dependency on their big brother from up north.

 

Oh yes, on another point, ASEAN doesn't have a dog in this fight since their own mandate clearly states that one member country doesn't have any right to stir the sh!t about what another member country chooses to do. As fellow members, they have put up with both Myanmar's (former) military dictatorship and Laos's perpetually, chronically corrupt, autocratic Communist rule for the best part of 20 years.

Edited July 28, 2017 by NanLaew

[tonbridgebrit]

18 hours ago, boomerangutang said:

                  China is renown for making bogus claims on territories that aren't theirs.  They've been doing it since they invaded and took over Tibet.  Any child can take a crude map and draw a dashed line on it. The 9-dash map is worse than a child's doodle.  It's dangerous, it commandeers other countries' territories, and it could trigger major military conflict.   Even if none of that happens, China has already been destroying coral atolls a mile a minute, and pouring thousands of tons of concrete on whatever little bits of coral are left.  China is to environmentalism what a herd of elephants is to lawn maintenance.   In nearly every part of the world where there are still some fish swimming around, there are open clashes with Chinese fishing vessels which have been militarized and have Chinese navy escorts.   

 

Americans feel a kinship with VN, more so than with China.  US is even closer with Phils. 

You want to say that the 9-dash map is a load of rubbish. Well, go and say that to Taiwan, they're the Chinese who drew up that map in 1947. You're talking as if China suddenly made the claim in 1947, and drew up the map. In reality, they already claimed the South China Sea back in the 1800s. It's just that China, did not formally declare ownership to Britain and France, when Britain and France first turned up in Asia.

And even if the 9-dash line map is rubbish. It makes no difference to the issues regarding the Paracel Islands. Should they be given to China or Vietnam ? They're just as close to China as they are to Vietnam. Wikipedia says that China got their first, China got there centuries before Vietnam. Nobody has lived permanently in them islands, until now, and they are Chinese.

And even if the 9-dash line map is rubbish. It makes no difference to the Philipinnes being 'in' with Beijing. The Philipinnes, under Duterte, they're not interested in having a dispute with China over bits of the South China Sea that are closer to the Philipinnes.

And even if the 9-dash line map is rubbish. It makes no difference to the Republic of China, Taiwan, having Taiping Island. That island, it's certainly not close to Taiwan. Theres no way Taiwan is giving away Taiping Island, they're staying. And yes, Taiping Island is inside the area of the 9-dash line map.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Island



The issue of China destroying the environment is actually off-topic. The issue is, does China own the South China Sea. But talk about China destroying the environment, well, Washington has belief that burning coal is harmless. 

Edited July 28, 2017 by tonbridgebrit

[boomerangutang]

12 hours ago, Ricardo said:

But hands-off Australia, as I've already got a map with the dashes I drew round it, filed in a box-file in my study at home !  On the other hand, I don't have long-range nukes, like China does.

Oh wait, I drew a map of Australia with dashes around it, before you drew your map, so I'll take possession of Australia.  If you don't like it, tough tamales.   I'll go out in my rowboat with one oar, and stick a needle in your inflated truck innertube, and we'll see who stays afloat the longest. 

 

5 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

You want to say that the 9-dash map is a load of rubbish. Well, go and say that to Taiwan, they're the Chinese who drew up that map in 1947. You're talking as if China suddenly made the claim in 1947, and drew up the map. In reality, they already claimed the South China Sea back in the 1800s. It's just that China, did not formally declare ownership to Britain and France, when Britain and France first turned up in Asia.
And even if the 9-dash line map is rubbish. It makes no difference to the issues regarding the Paracel Islands. Should they be given to China or Vietnam ? They're just as close to China as they are to Vietnam. Wikipedia says that China got their first, China got there centuries before Vietnam. Nobody has lived permanently in them islands, until now, and they are Chinese.
And even if the 9-dash line map is rubbish. It makes no difference to the Philipinnes being 'in' with Beijing. The Philipinnes, under Duterte, they're not interested in having a dispute with China over bits of the South China Sea that are closer to the Philipinnes.
And even if the 9-dash line map is rubbish. It makes no difference to the Republic of China, Taiwan, having Taiping Island. That island, it's certainly not close to Taiwan. Theres no way Taiwan is giving away Taiping Island, they're staying. And yes, Taiping Island is inside the area of the 9-dash line map.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Island
The issue of China destroying the environment is actually off-topic. The issue is, does China own the South China Sea. But talk about China destroying the environment, well, Washington has belief that burning coal is harmless. 

                   Most of what you assert is rubbish.  I've looked at maps of the China dating back hundreds of years.  Not one map shows any parts below Hainan as being part of China.  

 

                   If you want to talk about what territories belonged to what countries, historically, then you're going to see a bunch of changed maps, with multiple overlayments of claims.  The map of central Europe, for example, has more line changes than the faces of aging pensioners.  More overlapping lines drawn than a kids scribble book.  The 9-dash map is worse than ridiculous, regardless of whether some ding dong in Taiwan scribbled it, or some drunk in China.   

 

Get real.  The rest of the world is, and it's unified against China's territory-grabbing bullying.

[craigt3365]

12 hours ago, tonbridgebrit said:

The issue of China destroying the environment is actually off-topic. The issue is, does China own the South China Sea. But talk about China destroying the environment, well, Washington has belief that burning coal is harmless. 

The environmental disaster caused by the Chinese in the SCS is not off topic.  It's at the heart of the matter because it's allowing them to build military facilities.  Washington believes burning coal is harmless?  Really?  Maybe Trump, but luckily, he's not Washington.

[jaggiss]

Thailand neutral.. no opinion.
Doesn't understand about international law.
No surprise.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app

[NanLaew]

8 hours ago, jaggiss said:

Thailand neutral.. no opinion.
Doesn't understand about international law.
No surprise.

Sent from my SM-G930F using Thailand Forum - Thaivisa mobile app
 

The Chinese haven't signed off on Thailand's high speed railway deal OR delivered any of the Royal Thai Navy's submarines yet.

[Morch]

18 hours ago, craigt3365 said:

The environmental disaster caused by the Chinese in the SCS is not off topic.  It's at the heart of the matter because it's allowing them to build military facilities.  Washington believes burning coal is harmless?  Really?  Maybe Trump, but luckily, he's not Washington.

 

Same poster your responded to previously developed a keen interest in presenting PRC aggression vs. Vietnamese fishing boats from a supposedly environmental angle. Now that environmental issues become inconvenient, they are deemed "off-topic". And other than the usual deflections - the topic is not, as claimed, about whether the PRC "owns" the South China Sea, but about the PRC claiming that it attempts to "maintain stability" in the region, while doing anything but.

[NanLaew]

Repsol/Talisman are completing plugging the well on command of the Vietnamese government. The rig should move shortly. In the meantime, the Chinese, never slow to cash in on someone else's data, have already dispatched their seismic survey vessel and a support flotilla of 40 vessels that will probably commence their work in the same area, inside the Vietnamese EEZ by the end of the week. Earlier reports suggested the Vietnamese would muster about 30 vessels to 'face the Chinese' but in light of the official decision to acquiesce to China's demands, I would imagine a much smaller fleet would be deployed to monitor their activity.

 

The 19-man Vietnamese Politburo did meet in Hanoi to discuss the option of calling the Chinese bluff and this was allegedly supported by 17 to 2. However, the 2 hold outs were the General Secretary and the Defence Minister, the two most senior ministers so with no indication of any support, interest or protest from Washington, they have completely rolled over.

 

The week Donald Trump lost the South China Sea