Why Falangs Pay Ten Times More Than Thai

[meadish_sweetball]

What are you smoking ?

Nothing, sorry. Why, have you run out?

Tax paying or not is not the problem, those who pay taxes here are also making money here isn't it ?

I can't believe the logic really escapes you, but ok: Taxes pay for the upkeep of public facilities like national parks. Hence a tax payer has already contributed directly by his tax money, perhaps for many years. A tourist has not. What he pays for accommodation, meals and entertainment is between him and the establishment, and generally for a short time as well. It greases the wheels a little but that's it.

Tax paying or not is not the problem, those who pay taxes here are also making money here isn't it ?

Yes, he makes money and he contributes to society by working and paying tax. Often he makes considerably less than tourists from Western countries, because local salaries tend to be lower.

Do we have to accept anything from thai people cos we live here ? Ridiculous.

Please read my post again, carefully. Then tell me where you saw me writing we have to accept anything. If you cannot find it, perhaps try to not insinuate things.

I am not in favour of two tiered pricing by the way.

[meemiathai]

Dual pricing was very common in Europe before EU and the Euro. Places like Spain and Greece very often had different prices for tourists and locals. Nowadays locals and tourists in Europe are more or less on par when it comes to spending power.

Bullshit.

I was in a ski resort in Turin, Italy last january. One night club was offering free drinks coupons at the main entrance. When we asked them for it, the man said those were for the locals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BS!!!

[Rhodo]

Hence a tax payer has already contributed directly by his tax money, perhaps for many years. A tourist has not.

But a tourist is a tourist, two tiered pricing is unfair and only show a lack of respect for the foreigner who come here and contribute to the economy of Thailand. A tourist is not a milking cow designated to feed those lazy thais.

[meemiathai]

I agree it does not make sense that foreigners who are tax payers in Thailand are forced to pay a higher price, and this is the biggest beef I have with the idea.

As for tourists, I agree with sbk - a slightly higher price for tourists (all tourists, not just non-Asians) is acceptable due to them not paying tax. Although I must admit I have never seen Japanese tourists get in for the local price.

What are you smoking ? Tourists who come in Thailand spend a lot of money for accomodation, food, entertainment, shopping etc. Why should they pay double or more for tourist attractions ? Tax paying or not is not the problem, those who pay taxes here are also making money here isn't it ?

Do we have to accept anything from thai people cos we live here ? Ridiculous. It's not because they are stupid that we have to cope with it.

Yes you have to accept it! Why stay in the country like a leech? Just get your solly axx out! Just because you are arrogant does not mean that the thais have to cope with it!

[dan10400]

i find it amusing that some find justification in higher prices for non-residents for

education is ajustification for higher prices for tourists (or residents) for a day

in the park. especially higher education which is almost universally goverment

subsidised and represents a long term commitment and use of resources. and

as someone pointed out, states here in the US charge the markup to all non-

residents (US citizens or not).

-- to charge 10 times more for a day-use activity, especially one that is a draw

that provides benefits to other business activity in the community like tourist

attractsions, is short-sighted and stupid.

-- to not apply this policy consistently, as is done in thailand where only white

faces are picked out for enforcement, further excerbates the feelings of inequality

(everyone is supposed to have IDs on their persons - why not ask for them)

i lived in thailand 4 years. had a work permit, but never felt comfortable carrying

it around for such purposes. after a few times feeling raped paying these park

entry fees and being totally underwhelmed by the conditions, is more than enough

reason not to go again.

oh and thai tax payers, ha! the shinawatras aside, do you have any idea what

the level of tax compliance is outside of bangkok? most residents of the

rural countryside (where all these natural attractions are located) have never filed

a tax return in their lives.

[Johpa]

Another reason for dual pricing, apart from the fact that the Thai people own many of these places via their government, is the spending power discrepancy.

Dual pricing was very common in Europe before EU and the Euro. Places like Spain and Greece very often had different prices for tourists and locals. Nowadays locals and tourists in Europe are more or less on par when it comes to spending power.

Dual pricing still exist at many Tourist locations around the world apart from Thailand. The thing is that locals live there around the year and visit many of these places often so in the end they contribute more than the tourist that only visit the place once.

Here in the US it is often the tourists who get discounts to local tourist attractions and not the locals. There are often discounted tickets that allow entry into mulitiple locations that would be useless to a local, even if available, unless the local was spending their own vacation in town. Although at one major tourist center in Canada, I know that locals can get a whopping 10% discount just about anywhere.

In my youth, I was able to buy a discounted Eurail pass in the US that was lower priced than what I could have found in Europe.

In my limited experience, Thailand is one of the few countries that has all but institutionalized an exaggerated dual pricing system aimed at fleecing the tourists, a dual pricing system that is often based upon race.

The Thai dual pricing system no longer bothers me as I have found countless ways to bypass the system. Sometimes it is simply a matter of speaking Thai or reading the fees as they are written in Thai, so learn your Thai numerology. Often I simply have a Thai do the buying or booking for me. National Parks rarely have fences around them so I sometimes find alternatives to the main gate. And sometimes I simply walk away with a smile and then I find myself invited back at local rates, and other times I simply walk away and look for an alternative. It is just a quirk of the Thai State and when in-country it just isn't a big deal for me. Although from a business perspective, it is a really stupid and short sighted policy, but the Teo Chiu live for the quick buck.

[meemiathai]

-- to not apply this policy consistently, as is done in thailand where only white

faces are picked out for enforcement, further excerbates the feelings of inequality

(everyone is supposed to have IDs on their persons - why not ask for them)

I say again. They charge HK, Japanese, Korean tourists the tourist price as well!!!! Unless they don't know that they are not thais!!! Can you guys hear????????????????????????????????????

[sriracha john]

Interesting that the OP mentions one my favorite parks from this repeated post which basically ends most of these National Park uneven-pricing threads, probably because there's not much that can be said afterwards.

Sorry to have not noticed this month's version of this monthly thread earlier:

I have never heard of a tax id and work permit in tandem NOT get someone in at local prices.

Just off the top of my head and to be quite specific from personal experiences, the following parks would accept ONLY Thai National ID cards for admission at Thai prices:

Pang Sida National Park

Huay Huat National Park

Khao Sam Roi Yot National Marine Park

It is a highly inconsistent policy extended across the country which lends itself to abuse and charges of racism/favoritism, and creates a great deal of resentment. Certainly not worth the ill will it generates.

It's a shame when those in power to effect change ignore the recommendations of those with brains. The solution is right in front of their noses:

Dr. Adis Israngkura, an economist at Chiang Mai University and a consultant to Thailand's first and foremost "think tank" (Thailand Development Research Institute) conducted a research project for TDRI on this very topic and wrote the best paper, "Determining entrance fees to national parks: the case of Thailand" that I have ever encountered on the subject.

The paper, published in 2001, made the following recommendations:

1. Higher fees, for all, to the more popular parks with many facilities, which can subsidize the smaller parks with very few facilities.

2. Higher fees, for all, on long week-ends/holidays when parks tend to be heavily visited to help ease congestion and lessen environmental degradation, which will result in increased visitor satisfaction.

3. Annual memberships and lifetime memberships should be offered and available to all.

4. Both Thai and foreigners should pay the same entrance fee, but special services should be made available to the foreign visitor for additional higher fees, such as English-speaking tour/travel guides or English-language information booklets/maps. "The current policy unnecessarily jeopardizes the the image of the overall tourism industry."

5. Entrances fees should be exempted for the elderly, the handicapped, and children visiting on school trips.

I think when experts, and Thai himself, recognizes it as a problem, it's VERY telling....

[sriracha john]

-- to not apply this policy consistently, as is done in thailand where only white

faces are picked out for enforcement, further excerbates the feelings of inequality

(everyone is supposed to have IDs on their persons - why not ask for them)

I say again. They charge HK, Japanese, Korean tourists the tourist price as well!!!! Unless they don't know that they are not thais!!! Can you guys hear????????????????????????????????????

On countless personal occasions encountered from National Parks from the North to the South from the East to the West, its precisely these persons, as well as other Asians, that are allowed in at the local Thai price and thus leads to the appearance of racism in the admission fee system.

Edited January 6, 2007 by sriracha john

[chuchok]

-- to not apply this policy consistently, as is done in thailand where only white

faces are picked out for enforcement, further excerbates the feelings of inequality

(everyone is supposed to have IDs on their persons - why not ask for them)

I say again. They charge HK, Japanese, Korean tourists the tourist price as well!!!! Unless they don't know that they are not thais!!! Can you guys hear????????????????????????????????????

I've seen "other" asians get the same price as Thais, 'cause they look the same.Is this fair <deleted>!!!!!

I can hear pal,but double pricing to me is complete <deleted>.What is wrong with you?

Edited January 6, 2007 by chuchok

[loong]

But, the Thais are not the only ones guilty of double pricing. I've personally seen Japanese tourists get charged 25-50% more than farangs in farang-owned bars and restaurants.

Farang owned places are (not always but often) the third tier of pricing. They don't discriminate though, the prices are higher for everyone.

Prices for goods and services all over t world are not usually based on value for money but on the customers' perceived ability to pay.

The thai places in Pattaya that sell mainly thai food to the locals, but also sell farang food will have a much larger mark up on the farang food. A small amount, I know, but if I have a fried egg with a thai dish, I'm charged an extra 5 Baht. The difference in price for a hamburger or hamburger with egg is 10 Baht. The profit on a cup of tea or coffee is more than on a whole thai meal. This is because farang food is eaten by farangs and they can afford to pay more. In many of these places a large Chang is 50 Baht for farang, 40Bt for Thais (unless with farang)

How much do you pay for your accomodation? Probably at least 10 times what it would cost in Nakon Nowhere!

Afriend was recently going to buy a condo, but pulled out when he found out that thais could buy 25% discount.

I'm not happy with the double tiered pricing system, but if I don't like it, I don't go.

[sriracha john]

and... as if, right on cue... from this morning's Bangkok Post:

Tourists complain of being cheated in double pricing scams

Authorities admit the problem is not new

Several complaints from foreign tourists about being ripped off at seafood restaurants during the New Year holidays have alerted the Department of Internal Trade to take action on unscrupulous businesses, officials said. According to complaints revealed by deputy director-general of the department Songklod Ubolsing, foreigners claimed they were charged 200 baht for a dish of stir-fried morning glory, while some have paid 4,500 baht for one giant prawn.

In the latest complaint, a group of 10 foreign tourists dined at a seafood restaurant, ordered a few dishes and were charged more than 45,000 baht.

Continued here:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/News/07Jan2007_news03.php

[cdnvic]

'Unforgettable Thailand' is the new tourism slogan for 2007

The Thai tourism industry will have a new ad campaign tagline, 'Unforgettable Thailand', that will "focus on delivering an unforgettable experience to visitors," said TAT Governor Siriwan.

I'll never forget that $140 prawn I ate.

[sriracha john]

That makes for literally a lot of money going down the crapper the following morning.

[dogtanian]

its still cheaper than home so chin up dude

[cdnvic]

its still cheaper than home so chin up dude

My god, what do prawns cost where you come from?

[tamaique]

GDP

GDP per capita in Thailand: US$8,600

GDP per capita in Bermuda: US$69,900

GDP per capita in the USA: US$41,600

Australia: US$31,600, UK: US$30,100

Source: CIA World Factbook, 2004-2005.

Annual Minimum Wage

Thailand: US$899-1,170 (depending on province)

USA: US$10,712

UK: US$19,098

Australia: US$20,315

Luxemburg: US$20,938/US$25,131 (Number 1. Skilled/Unskilled workers)

Source: Wikipedia.

So, that's why there is one price for tourists and one price for locals.

I get the feeling that most of those opposing double pricing are citizens of 1st world countries. Try to understand that you are not being ripped off, but rather that locals are being subsidized by their own government in their own country.

Argentina does the same thing (including airfare), so does India, Nepal, Malaysia....

Also, most locals will never even dream of visiting your home countries, setting up their own business there, or retiring there, because in the grand scheme of things, foreigners in Thailand are WEALTHY and most locals are POOR.

Learn to deal with it. The world is not a fair place (take a look at the data posted above). So, even if you think double pricing in Thailand is unfair, park fees are not the most important unfairness that needs correcting, here or anywhere else in the world. Try an average GDP of US$600 per year in the Gaza strip for example.

Edited January 9, 2007 by tamaique

[Donz]

GDP

GDP per capita in Thailand: US$8,600

GDP per capita in Bermuda: US$69,900

GDP per capita in the USA: US$41,600

Australia: US$31,600, UK: US$30,100

Source: CIA World Factbook, 2004-2005.

Annual Minimum Wage

Thailand: US$899-1,170 (depending on province)

USA: US$10,712

UK: US$19,098

Australia: US$20,315

Luxemburg: US$20,938/US$25,131 (Number 1. Skilled/Unskilled workers)

Source: Wikipedia.

So, that's why there is one price for tourists and one price for locals.

I get the feeling that most of those opposing double pricing are citizens of 1st world countries. Try to understand that you are not being ripped off, but rather that locals are being subsidized by their own government in their own country.

Argentina does the same thing (including airfare), so does India, Nepal, Malaysia....

Also, most locals will never even dream of visiting your home countries, setting up their own business there, or retiring there, because in the grand scheme of things, foreigners in Thailand are WEALTHY and most locals are POOR.

Learn to deal with it. The world is not a fair place (take a look at the data posted above). So, even if you think double pricing in Thailand is unfair, park fees are not the most important unfairness that needs correcting, here or anywhere else in the world. Try an average GDP of US$600 per year in the Gaza strip for example.

Exactly, now stop blaming racism people.

[andy1308]

I was even told that a cash machine at a local Thai bank, which shall remain nameless, was only for Thai people. The woman in question soon backtracked when I showed her my ATM card from her own bank !!!

[sriracha john]

If the racist components were removed from the state-sanctioned system, it'd be a lot easier to stop blaming racism.

...but better yet, follow the Thai scholar's proposals from post #98 and things would improve greatly.

[tamaique]

If the racist components were removed from the state-sanctioned system, it'd be a lot easier to stop blaming racism.

Racism is a tautological issue and it exists everywhere.

I'm afraid we'll get nowhere discussing racism. It can be viewed both ways.

Usually though, racism is most important where prevalant in a stronger group against a weaker group.

Although western foreigners are a minority in Asia, in the grand scheme of things we (and our countries) still constitute the stronger oppresive group.

Quoting Edward Said:

""My contention is that Orientalism is fundamentally a political doctrine willed over the Orient because the Orient was weaker than the West, which elided the Orient’s difference with its weakness. . . . As a cultural apparatus Orientalism is all aggression, activity, judgment, will-to-truth, and knowledge" (Orientalism, p. 204).

What you call racism may actually be the counter-balance achieved by Asians (i.e. Occidentalism).

This position may very well change within our lifetimes.

[dantilley]

GDP

GDP per capita in Thailand: US$8,600

GDP per capita in Bermuda: US$69,900

GDP per capita in the USA: US$41,600

Australia: US$31,600, UK: US$30,100

Source: CIA World Factbook, 2004-2005.

Annual Minimum Wage

Thailand: US$899-1,170 (depending on province)

USA: US$10,712

UK: US$19,098

Australia: US$20,315

Luxemburg: US$20,938/US$25,131 (Number 1. Skilled/Unskilled workers)

Source: Wikipedia.

So, that's why there is one price for tourists and one price for locals.

I get the feeling that most of those opposing double pricing are citizens of 1st world countries. Try to understand that you are not being ripped off, but rather that locals are being subsidized by their own government in their own country.

Argentina does the same thing (including airfare), so does India, Nepal, Malaysia....

Also, most locals will never even dream of visiting your home countries, setting up their own business there, or retiring there, because in the grand scheme of things, foreigners in Thailand are WEALTHY and most locals are POOR.

Learn to deal with it. The world is not a fair place (take a look at the data posted above). So, even if you think double pricing in Thailand is unfair, park fees are not the most important unfairness that needs correcting, here or anywhere else in the world. Try an average GDP of US$600 per year in the Gaza strip for example.

Very weak argument. Firstly, none of those GDP per capita examples are 10x the Thai GDP per capita, so there's still no excuse for the 10x price difference.

And, if this argument is to be followed, why isn't there a separate sign saying "Indian Tourists = 15 Baht", being as the GDP per Capita of India is $3,320, less than half of the Thai equivalent figure?

Some other countries with GDPs which, according to you, indicate they should be charged less than the Thai price include: China, Iran, Turkey, Ukraine, the Philipines, Sri Lanka, Vietnam, Pakistan.... there are many more besides.

And as for your "Learn to deal with it" comment, well most people do. It doesn't give me any sleepless nights anyway. But it doesn't mean we can't all discuss how unfair the policy is and how damaging could be to Thailand's tourist industry on a public, Thai-themed web board, does it?

[sriracha john]

If the racist components were removed from the state-sanctioned system, it'd be a lot easier to stop blaming racism.

Racism is a tautological issue and it exists everywhere.

I'm afraid we'll get nowhere discussing racism. It can be viewed both ways.

Usually though, racism is most important where prevalant in a stronger group against a weaker group.

Although western foreigners are a minority in Asia, in the grand scheme of things we (and our countries) still constitute the stronger oppresive group.

What you call racism may actually be the counter-balance achieved by Asians (i.e. Occidentalism).

This position may very well change within our lifetimes.

Actually, it's just garden-variety racism. No need to call it something else.

How to end it? Simple.

Check everyone entering National Parks. If they produce a Thai National ID Card, they get in at one rate. If they don't have have one, charge another rate.

That would solve the racism issue, but not necessarily do much to resolve the issue of 10x pricing.

[Bruce1]

As I understand it, the policy is supposed to be based upon whether you're a taxpayer/citizen in Thailand or not, not on race or income.

That's why, if we show our taxpayer cards at national parks, we can get in for the local price.

Park officials who apply it based on whether a person looks Thai or not are being too lazy to find out whether that person they assumed was Thai was actually Filipino or Malyasian or whatever.

I have no problem if its based on local taxpayer status, as long as all froeigners are charged the same amount. It would become unworkable if there was a different rate for people from every one of the 196 (?) countries in the world, based on incomes. It would be even more impractical to apply than the present situation.

Edited January 9, 2007 by Bruce1

[chuchok]

GDP

GDP per capita in Thailand: US$8,600

GDP per capita in Bermuda: US$69,900

GDP per capita in the USA: US$41,600

Australia: US$31,600, UK: US$30,100

Source: CIA World Factbook, 2004-2005.

Annual Minimum Wage

Thailand: US$899-1,170 (depending on province)

USA: US$10,712

UK: US$19,098

Australia: US$20,315

Luxemburg: US$20,938/US$25,131 (Number 1. Skilled/Unskilled workers)

Source: Wikipedia.

So, that's why there is one price for tourists and one price for locals.

I get the feeling that most of those opposing double pricing are citizens of 1st world countries. Try to understand that you are not being ripped off, but rather that locals are being subsidized by their own government in their own country.

Argentina does the same thing (including airfare), so does India, Nepal, Malaysia....

Also, most locals will never even dream of visiting your home countries, setting up their own business there, or retiring there, because in the grand scheme of things, foreigners in Thailand are WEALTHY and most locals are POOR.

Learn to deal with it. The world is not a fair place (take a look at the data posted above). So, even if you think double pricing in Thailand is unfair, park fees are not the most important unfairness that needs correcting, here or anywhere else in the world. Try an average GDP of US$600 per year in the Gaza strip for example.

that's crap.just because other countries do it, does not make it right.

So by going by your scale of GDP, a more fair system would be having prices per nationality?

[tamaique]

that's crap.just because other countries do it, does not make it right.

So by going by your scale of GDP, a more fair system would be having prices per nationality?

It's not "crap", it's fact. Granted, some GDP's are crap.

Pricing by income would be even better, but both systems more complicated. The main point is that this is their country and they are entitled to subsidise their citizens as they see fit. All of us not Thai are GUESTS here. We are visitors at someone else's house, if we wish to remain here we have to follow their rules, and it seems quite fair to me.

My point is (to those who oppose the double pricing in Thailand), you are here. For whatever reasons you have chosen Thailand over your own country (for many it has to do with the fact that it's cheaper to live here).

It's just annoying to hear people complain about whether they have to pay 1 or 10 dollars for a park fee entrance. Does it really make a difference in the quality of life you can live here (does it make a difference for the OP who drives a Fortruner)?

Many other issues may seem unfair. I was never able to get a VOA because of my nationality, I now get 30 days on a tourist visa instead of 60. Unfair? Sure. Such is life. Every country has its nuances.

[Donz]

Cry me a river, anyone hear that sond before?

[chuchok]

that's crap.just because other countries do it, does not make it right.

So by going by your scale of GDP, a more fair system would be having prices per nationality?

It's not "crap", it's fact. Granted, some GDP's are crap.

Pricing by income would be even better, but both systems more complicated. The main point is that this is their country and they are entitled to subsidise their citizens as they see fit. All of us not Thai are GUESTS here. We are visitors at someone else's house, if we wish to remain here we have to follow their rules, and it seems quite fair to me.

My point is (to those who oppose the double pricing in Thailand), you are here. For whatever reasons you have chosen Thailand over your own country (for many it has to do with the fact that it's cheaper to live here).

It's just annoying to hear people complain about whether they have to pay 1 or 10 dollars for a park fee entrance. Does it really make a difference in the quality of life you can live here (does it make a difference for the OP who drives a Fortruner)?

Many other issues may seem unfair. I was never able to get a VOA because of my nationality, I now get 30 days on a tourist visa instead of 60. Unfair? Sure. Such is life. Every country has its nuances.

It is crap.Therefore when wealthy Thais visit my country, we should charge them 20x what the normal rate is because they are rich buggers??How to screw up tourism in one easy lesson.

There are plenty of farangs here that are not making millions and support families.

And, to some people it does matter "whether they have to pay 1 or 10 dollars for a park fee entrance. Does it really make a difference in the quality of life you can live here".Not everybody is wealthy pal.

Edited January 9, 2007 by chuchok

[Donz]

that's crap.just because other countries do it, does not make it right.

So by going by your scale of GDP, a more fair system would be having prices per nationality?

It's not "crap", it's fact. Granted, some GDP's are crap.

Pricing by income would be even better, but both systems more complicated. The main point is that this is their country and they are entitled to subsidise their citizens as they see fit. All of us not Thai are GUESTS here. We are visitors at someone else's house, if we wish to remain here we have to follow their rules, and it seems quite fair to me.

My point is (to those who oppose the double pricing in Thailand), you are here. For whatever reasons you have chosen Thailand over your own country (for many it has to do with the fact that it's cheaper to live here).

It's just annoying to hear people complain about whether they have to pay 1 or 10 dollars for a park fee entrance. Does it really make a difference in the quality of life you can live here (does it make a difference for the OP who drives a Fortruner)?

Many other issues may seem unfair. I was never able to get a VOA because of my nationality, I now get 30 days on a tourist visa instead of 60. Unfair? Sure. Such is life. Every country has its nuances.

It is crap.Therefore when wealthy Thais visit my country, we should charge them 20x what the normal rate is because they are rich buggers??How to screw up tourism in one easy lesson.

There are plenty of farangs here that are not making millions and support families.

And, to some people it does matter "whether they have to pay 1 or 10 dollars for a park fee entrance. Does it really make a difference in the quality of life you can live here".Not everybody is wealthy pal.

Majority of Thai's are poor and majority of tourists etc are doing fine. If a few rich buggers get in for the sake of letting the poor see these great things then so be it.

Stop complainging about such little things and enjoy life.

[tamaique]

You are still a guest at their house. Deal with that.

It is crap.Therefore when wealthy Thais visit my country, we should charge them 20x what the normal rate is because they are rich buggers??How to screw up tourism in one easy lesson.

The world is an imperfect place. That's why some people starve and others are billionaires. I don't like it any more than you.

There are plenty of farangs here that are not making millions and support families.

I agree. 10 dollar park fee is still not a matter of millions.

And, to some people it does matter "whether they have to pay 1 or 10 dollars for a park fee entrance. Does it really make a difference in the quality of life you can live here".Not everybody is wealthy pal.

You're not being forced to go to the national parks that charge 10 dollars. I've never been to one and and I consider the quality of my life to be quite good.

There are many free places in Thailand (if you really can't afford to pay 10 dollars), many cheap places, many fun things to do. I tend to ignore small issues like this. It makes the quality of my life THAT much better. No one's life is at stake, no one is being seriously harmed. Smile.