Teacher Licensing, Culture Testing, TCT

[mark lamai]

i am astonished to read this story.

it is so unThai.

1. a test that can be failed!

2. a test when you haven't been given the answers beforehand!

seems like blatant farang persecution.

as a good teacher i always gave answers to tests the day before,

so the real test in a test is to remember the answers for 24 hours.

gee, isn't that hard enough already????

[Petch01]

i am astonished to read this story.

it is so unThai.

1. a test that can be failed!

2. a test when you haven't been given the answers beforehand!

seems like blatant farang persecution.

as a good teacher i always gave answers to tests the day before,

so the real test in a test is to remember the answers for 24 hours.

gee, isn't that hard enough already????

Come on, mark lamai. Why are you astonished to read this post? You've other things to worry about.

You've pain in your right teeth

You've lost your golf game

Your bar can't be sold for the price you want

You want to sell your bike but nobody wants it

Petch01

[Jimmyd]

In a word, ununderstandable (I like that, even if Spell Check doesn't).

Tsk, tsk! Don't you know double negatives are evil? That should be 'derstandable.'

Sorry, I couldn't resist. I'll go crawl back under my rock.

[Ijustwannateach]

I got a good chuckle out of that, Jimmyd...

Stamp, I have nothing personal against you, but you are most likely a shill. You have revealed inside information about TCT, claimed to be associated with them, and then side-stepped that claim by saying you are merely another teacher taking the test.

You are clearly not a native speaker, yet you will not reveal this openly despite my direct questions- this is highly important because if you are the type of person who is advising on these tests, that's clearly one reason they are going wrong.

So never mind your opinions, your statements of fact about yourself seem unreliable and questionable, and that leads us to question them. We're not sheep, or your employees, and if you're going to tell unskillful lies you're going to get caught out in them.

I have no intention of banning you or applying the rules in any other way than they apply to every member (though if you continue to discuss moderation you will be on your way). However, your factual links have so far been much more useful than your own personal opinions, and you should expect the level of respect that your statements deserve (you may notice that few members are rallying behind you in agreement).

I recall an anecdote someone told me about a certain person, a non-native speaker of English. He was working as some sort of middle-level manager at a teaching agency or a school. He wrote some kind of lesson plan forms for the teachers to use. The lesson plan forms were incomprehensible and not in fluent English. A teacher recommended that the plans be checked and re-written with the assistance of a native speaker. And this person was unbalanced enough that he threatened to sue that teacher for this suggestion!

Are you this person?

"S"

[dr_Pat_Pong]

No answer was the stern reply.

[Ijustwannateach]

Yes, in this case the silence is certainly deafening- though I think he may have another voice on this forum....

[PeaceBlondie]

This [original, before being merged] thread now has 89 posts, but somewhere here I found at least one instance when Petch01 replied to a comment by Stamp, as if they were different people (to use the second conditional, aka subjunctive). I talk to myself sometimes, too.

Just a reminder: ThaiVisa rules forbid the use of multiple user names.

[markg]

Yes, you can ask yourself, whether it's all worth? Is this really necessary for teaching English Conversation? Thais don't know a thing about education themselves. Do I have to do this all for a wage of only 30 K? Etcetera. This attitude will help nobody. Try to see it more constructive with asking yourself:"How can I pass these tests"? or "What is the next country where I will teach"?

I guess most people are posting about their own situation and personal experience, so i'd like to add my 2 satang.

1. Let's say I have a teacher who gives a months notice just before the end of semester 1. It could then take me 6 months to replace him with a LEGAL teacher who cannot get a work permit before sitting a test that he will have to take time out to study for. This is going to be a serious problem. Has anyone thought about this? Recruiting new staff is going to be a nightmare.

2. Specifically in the TEFL world, expecting someone to have the degree of knowledge required in the TCT test to teach conversational English in Prathom (and some Mathayom) for 30K a month is unreasonable, unnecessary and unworkable.

3. Thai education is of a low standard - not because of the teachers, but because of the attitude of the students, 'saving face' by not failing anyone, corruption and a whole plethora of Thai social customs.

4. Fry (2003) concluded that the biggest problem within Thai education ministry, stemmed from corrupt individuals, protecting their own feudal empires, and creating policies for their own benefit. NO SHIT SHERLOCK !

5. Teaching TEFL in Thailand is NOT a career. There is no pension, little chance of promotion, contracts are 'temporary' one year ones with no guarantee of renewal or any guarantee of a visa extension. To pretend otherwise, and expect to attract the highest echelons of professional teachers, whilst offering a derisory remuneration, is misguided folly.

6. The TCT test is in either Thai or English, right? Our Chinese teachers are up in arms. They speak neither language to a high level. Yet, as foreign teachers, they have to take this test. Has the TCT thought of how this problem can be overcome? Have they fuc_k. Because they havent thought very much at all.

7. Stamp, you said 'that attitude will help nobody'. I believe you are right. It wont help the students. They dont give a crap because they cannot fail. And having no teacher at all because we cant employ one before they sit a test, in some unknown location at an unspecified time, means there is no teacher in the classroom teaching. And that sure as hel_l helps nobody.

I live 700km away from Bangkok - which i believe is currently the nearest place i can take the test. And all our new teachers too.

It is becoming more and more logistically difficult to become legal here. YET AGAIN Thai's have striven for greatness, but shot themselves in the foot by demonstrating absolutely no forward thinking to a logistical problem that a child could foresee.

[mark lamai]

markg is very right of course.

but why respond to a thai problem in a farang way.

do it the thai way,

just find out who to pay and its all solved.

==========

BTW

what is it with these strange bods here who bother to look up all your old posts and then quote something to you in an attempt to defame.

get a life Petch01 or learn about addressing the message instead of the messenger.

[Ijustwannateach]

Mr. Petch/Stamp won't be bothering us again, under those names anyway.

[Loaded]

I've been an observer of all the major 'panics' over the last few years. I remember teachers in tears a few years back because of minimum taxable incomes. Brits would have to pay tax on 45K per month and Yanks on 50 as I remember. Pages of tears and talk of the end of TEFL from teachers earning 24K. Nothing happened! The truth was a little different: the law change only aplied to company employees and specifically excluded teachers. Didn't stop the shills and the trolls. This is just one example of many 'panics' I've witnessed. I'm sure many more to come.

Thais work to a formula and do not like or want change. It takes a few years to realise that when Thais say This will happen, there's probably no intention at all to enact their plan - potentially lost faces, incompetence, lack of co-ordination between government offices, year of the Dog etc.

Edited April 25, 2008 by Loaded

[markg]

markg is very right of course.

but why respond to a thai problem in a farang way.

do it the thai way,

just find out who to pay and its all solved.

==========

BTW

what is it with these strange bods here who bother to look up all your old posts and then quote something to you in an attempt to defame.

get a life Petch01 or learn about addressing the message instead of the messenger.

mark lamai. I always try to see things from my hosts' point of view, i really do. As a teacher, i am always looking to improve MY skills, seek out new ways of doing things and the latest thoughts on education. However, i am also a realist. I work in a school where part of my job is to interview new TEFL teachers for jobs. The process from putting an advert out, to getting a teacher working legally with a work permit just got a whole lot longer and more complicated, and i dont believe this has been thought about enough. I've just completed a round of interviews, selected candidates and am about to get them to a consulate to get their Type B visas. They will be back by next week. If we don't get an exemption from the TCT test then how can we get their teachers license? The province that i am in will NOT issue a work permit without a teachers license. Period. So in 3 months time, when their Type B visas expire, they will have to leave - after having worked illegally for 3 months whilst their paperwork is being processed. This is a problem for me, my school, the students, and the teachers - who have relocated to come to work for us.

I personally have no problem with carrying out further study within my field of work. But as usual, the implementation of this has not been thought through enough. What should we study? What literature should we be reading? Where and when can we do the tests?

If we cannot take the tests locally, on a weekend, then it means that teachers have to leave the classrooms to go and do it. This is poor planning. If the tests are only carried out twice a year, and from only a couple of locations, then how is is possible to get every TEFL teacher in Thailand to sit the tests? These are simple questions which have not been addressed. I truly believe that a forward thinking 12 year old in the west would foresee these simple problems. Yet the 'might' of the TCT had not been able to.

I will try to look at things in a Thai way, but it would be helpful if Thais also looked at things in a foreign way. This is how we all educate ourselves. Let's look at some empirical data. How many genuine, overseas students, do (say) Thamasak and Chula universities attract? How many genuine overseas students does a run of the mill university in the UK attract?

If the Thai education model was so good, then the universities here - being cheaper overall - should be swamped with overseas students. They are not though. The universities in the UK ARE swamped with overseas students - and they are expensive too. Why is that? Could it be that the UK models are better? If that is so, then would there be any benefit in the Thai ministry of education, eliciting the views and thoughts of people that have knowledge of a superior education model? Of course the answer is yes. But from anecdotal evidence on here, the insular and xenophobic TCT cannot even bring itself to get a native speaker to proof read its tests.

Their good idea is doomed to failure because of a lack of forward planning and attention to detail.

(p.s. I also find folk posting under 2 nicknames on here strange. I post on here and on Ajarn using the same user name - Markg. I dont have time to play games with 2 niks. i dont understand what people's agendas are in doing so)

[markg]

Thais work to a formula and do not like or want change. It takes a few years to realise that when Thais say This will happen, there's probably no intention at all to enact their plan - potentially lost faces, incompetence, lack of co-ordination between government offices, year of the Dog etc.

Loaded - you are of course, quite correct. The problem with the TCT is that it has been knocking around for a couple of years already. And we are hearing stories of teachers being refused licenses because they havent passed the tests yet. That is a worry.

The fact is - life goes on, and sometimes, being expats, we dont notice the changes so much. It's not like everyone leaves at the same time. But what I have noticed is a couple of things. 1. Since the new hoops have been put in place, recruiting teachers has become harder. We are just not getting the quantity or quality any more. 2. Since the introduction of the limit to 30 day visa stamps on entry, a number of business owners i speak to report a huge downturn in their businesses. Expats really did dribble away, houses really are sitting empty and up for rent etc.

[PeaceBlondie]

Thanks, markg, as always. Hey man, don't we both date back to 2003, in Thailand? What a long, strange trip it's been, and now you're trying your best to hire teachers legally. Meanwhile, I finally discovered (maybe) that I never could have taught legally at a state school, at my age, when I arrived. Sawadee crap. But I guess those who recruited me to TEFL school and to my first two state schools never had the slightest intention of obeying Thai law, including Thai School Directors. Welcome to the wild, wild East.

It is against TVisa rules to have more than one nik, or to suggest illegal activities such as prostitution or working illegally. That doesn't keep guys from knocking on the doors of knocking shops, or teaching without a work permit. So, buckle up those seat belts , obey the speed limits , wear those internationally approved helmets , etc. So, take the Thai cultural exam ( ! ), take that TCT impossible "profuxional" exam, and be sure you get your work permit and do not teach private lessons.

///Warning: this post contains liberal amounts of sarcasm and irony.

[garro]

The latest from the Teacher's council is that I definitely might have to take the test or I definitely might not. They have given an exemption anyway while they decide what I definitely will have to maybe do.

[PeaceBlondie]

Great. Congratulations, garro. And by the time your exemption expires, you may have finished your PGCE or whatever.

[garro]

The PGCE might definitely exempt me if they can decide what it is/are

[Loaded]

markg

Isn't it true that new teachers can't take the test becasue one of the requirements is 1-year's experience?

How does this affect your recruitment?

[markg]

markg

Isn't it true that new teachers can't take the test becasue one of the requirements is 1-year's experience?

How does this affect your recruitment?

It's a good point Loaded. Indeed, 'new' teachers apparantly cannot begin their career here. They would have to begin their careers in countries with less 'developed' education systems. Like Somalia for example.

When i mentioned 'new' teachers, i meant they are new to me. The ones we have just gotten have more then 1 year's experience in other countries, which i am hoping will be enough for the TCT.

[mrtoad]

The latest from the Teacher's council is that I definitely might have to take the test or I definitely might not. They have given an exemption anyway while they decide what I definitely will have to maybe do.

Sounds pretty typical, it means they haven't a F@#%*&ng clue.

[DragonQuest]

Im thinking about not taking it after reading all this lol

[astral]

Unfortunately mistranslation is uncommon in other countries, not just Thailand.

I saw the 9th grade exam where I live.

It is set in Arabic, French and English.

One question asked the student to explain the meaning of various terms.

One was "stockroom". The French version showed what they really wanted

as the word was "Bourse".

There is a world of difference between a Stock Room and a Stock Exchange.

I do hope that the OP manages to pass his certification exam.

[ralphlsasser]

I would be interested to know some of the content, not specific questions.

Did it ask about models of curriculm design?

Development psychology? Piaget, Vygotsky

Learning theory? Gardner etc

Bloom: cognitive, affective, psycho motor domains?

These specific questions were left out this time. One single question I remember was:"who invented Multiple Intelligences"?

Many questions involved case studies. To answer them, one should have read some books about Educational Psychology, Curriculum Development, Learning Management and the Thai Educational Acts.

Petch01

I fail to understand what Chomsky, Gardner, and all the rest of the linguist that have a theory about how language is acquired have to do with teaching Thai children English.

[garro]

The argument is that if you understand how language is acquired then you can assist children in acquiring L2. It's more professional if we can back up our pedagogy with theory and research. The opposite of this would be teachers doing things without any rationale to explain their actions. Chomsky's universal grammar and other theories are worth knowing about as so much ESL research has been devoted to examining these theories.

For example; the research on universal grammar has provided a lot of knowledge about the grammatical mistakes made by people learning a new language. If we know why people make these mistakes then we can be more efficient.

Of course, there is a lot more to teaching than memorising theories, but learning about them can help us develop a bit further than a mere clown in front of the class. Does that make sense?

Edited April 29, 2008 by garro

[Loaded]

The argument is that if you understand how language is acquired then you can assist children in acquiring L2. It's more professional if we can back up our pedagogy with theory and research. The opposite of this would be teachers doing things without any rationale to explain their actions. Chomsky's universal grammar and other theories are worth knowing about as so much ESL research has been devoted to examining these theories.

For example; the research on universal grammar has provided a lot of knowledge about the grammatical mistakes made by people learning a new language. If we know why people make these mistakes then we can be more efficient.

Of course, there is a lot more to teaching than memorising theories, but learning about them can help us develop a bit further than a mere clown in front of the class. Does that make sense?

I would argue that having some knowledge of the structure of the students' native language would be beneficial as well. For example, "I receive you at your room" is often spoken by Thais. Why? "I study about mass comm". Why? A little knowledge about Thai use of the verb 'receive' and the preposition 'about' gives you a better understanding of the error. I don't think Chomsky - with all due respect - would know the answer. BUT where do you stop? Anyway, this stuff won't be included in the Teaching Certificate Test. Might be included in a good Thai-based TEFL course though!

[PeaceBlondie]

I agree the theories help us to be better TEFL teachers in Thailand, but I thought this stuff was still on the Teaching Certificate Test. Or are they next going to plagiarize some Thai test?

[wangsuda]

On Friday, I met with a representative from the Teachers Council of Thailand. At this meeting, I found out what it takes to become a "legal" teacher in Thailand.

All Prathom and Mattayom teachers, regardless of their type of degree, need to take the 20 hour Thai language, culture, and teaching ethics course. After the course is completed and the certificate of course completion is issued (takes about a week), this is what it takes to get a teaching license:

The "Perfect" Teacher

1. Has a BEd in education from a recognized university

2. Has completed the 20 hour course, and

3. Has at least one year of verifiable teaching experience somewhere

*This person is exempt from the four part test and/or the 18 unit education course. This person can (and should) get his/her teaching license quickly

The "Next to Perfect" Teacher

1. Has a BA/BS degree from a recognized university

2. Is legally allowed to teach is his/her home country (in other words, has a US - state issued - teaching credential, PGCE, or something similar)

3. Has completed the 20 hour course, and

4. Has at least one year of verifiable teaching experience somewhere

*This person is exempt from the four part test and/or the 18 unit education course. This person can (and should) get his/her teaching license quickly

The "Regular Joe" Teacher

1. Has a BA/BS degree from a recognized university

2. Has completed the 20 hour course

3. Has at least one year verifiable teaching experience somewhere

4. Has either:

4a. Passed the four-part test, or

4b. Taken a recognized teacher-equivalence course (Rajabhat Suan Dusit offers one, and no, I'm not a shill for the)

---

Exceptions to the above stated qualifications will continue through this year, however 2009 should see the end to exceptions. This new license is designed to replace Sor Chor 11 as it is now (applied for through the MoE) and Sor Chor 18 or 19. There are two rumors currently floating around the TCT offices:

1. A study guide to the four-part test will be written and made available soon, and

2. The test might go through major revisions

---

And this is what I learned in six hours. Hope it helps!

[culicine]

On Friday, I met with a representative from the Teachers Council of Thailand. At this meeting, I found out what it takes to become a "legal" teacher in Thailand.

All Prathom and Mattayom teachers, regardless of their type of degree, need to take the 20 hour Thai language, culture, and teaching ethics course. After the course is completed and the certificate of course completion is issued (takes about a week), this is what it takes to get a teaching license:

The "Perfect" Teacher

1. Has a BEd in education from a recognized university

2. Has completed the 20 hour course, and

3. Has at least one year of verifiable teaching experience somewhere

*This person is exempt from the four part test and/or the 18 unit education course. This person can (and should) get his/her teaching license quickly

The "Next to Perfect" Teacher

1. Has a BA/BS degree from a recognized university

2. Is legally allowed to teach is his/her home country (in other words, has a US - state issued - teaching credential, PGCE, or something similar)

3. Has completed the 20 hour course, and

4. Has at least one year of verifiable teaching experience somewhere

*This person is exempt from the four part test and/or the 18 unit education course. This person can (and should) get his/her teaching license quickly

The "Regular Joe" Teacher

1. Has a BA/BS degree from a recognized university

2. Has completed the 20 hour course

3. Has at least one year verifiable teaching experience somewhere

4. Has either:

4a. Passed the four-part test, or

4b. Taken a recognized teacher-equivalence course (Rajabhat Suan Dusit offers one, and no, I'm not a shill for the)

---

Exceptions to the above stated qualifications will continue through this year, however 2009 should see the end to exceptions. This new license is designed to replace Sor Chor 11 as it is now (applied for through the MoE) and Sor Chor 18 or 19. There are two rumors currently floating around the TCT offices:

1. A study guide to the four-part test will be written and made available soon, and

2. The test might go through major revisions

---

And this is what I learned in six hours. Hope it helps!

Good stuff. Interesting that they think a BEd is somehow "better" than a PGCE, though. I seem than as equivalent, and in Australia (GradDipEd) they are treated equally. Would be nice to see a study manual for the exams, though, for those who need to do the exams and can't afford to do the course.

[Loaded]

1. A study guide to the four-part test will be written and made available soon, and

There's a Thai version for Thai teachers taking the test available from rajabahts.

[Ijustwannateach]

Great info, Wang, thanks a lot!