Top Army, Navy Units Readied For Red-Shirts Dispersal

[hextac]

Or just dissolve parliament.

Which would solve exactly NOTHING... so any other bright ideas?

Umm Errr Have an Election

So the next time 100,000 people come out calling for an election, the next government will call an election too, won't they. And then after that ............

That would seem to be the precedent set by the PAD, so yes.

[Thai at Heart]

Stopping international trade and tourism is a little more serious than preventing pretentious wnakers from buying overpriced, branded coffee and handbags though.

When you look at it like that, it does all seem rather irrelevant doesn't it.

[anotherpeter]

I'm pretty sure closing airports is more detrimental to trade and tourism than malls.

I'm not sure which one is worse. They are both bad for the economy.

All put together they are terrible for the economy and for future foreign investment and tourism in Thailand.

And until Thais work out that the country can not be ruled by minority mobs, then the economy will continue to get worse, which will affect all Thais.

[anotherpeter]

So the next time 100,000 people come out calling for an election, the next government will call an election too, won't they. And then after that ............

That would seem to be the precedent set by the PAD, so yes.

The PAD did their damage. The reds have done their damage.

So when is it going to stop? Why not now?

[dhrobertson]

...It seems that many ordinary Thais have no problem with Abhisit or Korn, EXCEPT that they are surrounded by others whom they believe to be corrupt and CRITICALLY, fail to weed them out and thus are thus seen to be not even handed...

What do they expect when they continually vote for the same corrupt bunch of Newins, Chavalits, Chalerms, Banharns et al? Honestly, these people complaining about corruption, and their position in society, have had nine chances since 1988 to do something about it by voting for fresh politicians, yet what do they do? They take the short term money and choose the same same but definitely not different everytime. Do they never wonder that if they had a few good men at the top, with a team that they had full control over, rather than a fractious coalition with every party competing for its share of the loot, then they and the country would be better off?

Exactly the point. Real change will be a long time coming.

In the meantime, Abhisit could gain a great deal of credit by firing some of these people before dissolving the house.

Ultimately I hope cooler heads will prevail and support incremental change for the good.

[philw]

@ blackman

I just want to say that I think you seem quite sweet when I read you all your battle plans, like a little toddler almost. When I was younger, I was fortunate enough to grow up in the countryside and we all used to play for hours in the woods, with pretend army gear and little pop guns - sometimes right until it got dark. One summer, our Mums even gave us a tent and let us camp out - it was like our HQ and we covered our faces with mud and and made raids out from here, stalking each other, using torches and creeping around - as they say, truly Halycon days...

Thanks for making me reminisce and I do hope that this can go a on little longer, so as that you too can carry on playing with such gusto!

Bang bang!!

Excellent, Thank you !!

A voice of sweet reason, seldom heard but very welcome.

phil

[grandpops]

I'm pretty sure closing airports is more detrimental to trade and tourism than malls.

I'm not sure which one is worse. They are both bad for the economy.

All put together they are terrible for the economy and for future foreign investment and tourism in Thailand.

And until Thais work out that the country can not be ruled by minority mobs, then the economy will continue to get worse, which will affect all Thais.

I think we might be closing in on serious points here Peter.

You are right in this.

The problem IMHO is the polarisation. The Reds,(even though I think they have moral right on their side) are moving towards the Hugo Chavez end of the spectrum and the Yellows towards Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe autocratic rule. None but the minorities on either side (Red or Yellow) want this. For the Record again, I don't want Thaksin in, nor most of the current Red Leadership. Problem is, they are keeping the Mugabes out so what choice do people have?

The middle ground is being lost and needs to be retaken, but by who?

The english language portion on NBT actually threw up a Government spokesman from the Dems who looked like he could be moving to the centre. What was his name? I think he was Abhisits vice something or other... A fattish chap talking to Edward and his sidekick. Abhisit is too in the pay of the power brokers and can never heal this country. I hope he is not a voice crying in the wilderness!

[pontius]

All I read is "But the yellows were bad too, but the yellows were bad too, na na nana nah!"

Dayumn. Political threads should be limited to age 15+.

[danc]

I'm pretty sure closing airports is more detrimental to trade and tourism than malls.

Not sure about trade but tourism yes - the closure of the airport caused huge losses, here where I am, for all concerned - a good time for business when people could not leave and then empty empty empty - and this right after the banks collapse. so its timing was hardly fortuitous or dare I say it caring on behalf of the organisers about the consequences.

This is not to condone the malls being closed and the affect it has on the Thai workers by the way - I do not want to be drawn into a tit for tat. (Though I do kinda of like the idea of all those ridiculous women with those bouffon hairstyles not knowing where they are going to get their fancy biscotti and Hermes bags from! I am not a big lover of the luxury goods market and its clientele in any city).

However, tourists now are stranded because of the volcanic ash and really very unaffected here in the tourist hubs (the islands) by what seems to them localised problems in Bangkok - there is no great debate about all this over the breakfast table in the guesthouse and resorts, compared with when the airport was closed.

So when people say that tourism was more affected by the airport closure and indeed Thailand's reputation, then I would side with them on a purely rational basis, as it inconvenienced so many tourists, westerners and Asian alike and going forward had such an effect on future bookings - maybe we that live here don't always see the obvious, but it left a very very sour taste in many tourists' mouth and their inconvenience was experienced by many governments as a result. Those governments remember that rightly or wrongly the incumbents came into power, right after all their citizens had been stranded, so I would say that this is part of the reason why the incumbents are having a difficult time winning particularly western governments over to their side in this present conflict.

Edited April 19, 2010 by danc

[Insight]

Stopping international trade and tourism is a little more serious than preventing pretentious wnakers from buying overpriced, branded coffee and handbags though.

When you look at it like that, it does all seem rather irrelevant doesn't it.

There's a big banner above the Ratchaprasong rally stage stating "Welcome to Thailand - We just want democracy" - who is that aimed at?

What about regrouping down at Khao Sarn Road after the army has initially broken the protest up, then letting the hardcore element of the red shirts attack the army from there?

There really is no lesser of two evils right now between the reds and the yellows. Sadly, that looks set to change this week however.

[steveromagnino]

So the next time 100,000 people come out calling for an election, the next government will call an election too, won't they. And then after that ............

That would seem to be the precedent set by the PAD, so yes.

Well actually in neither case did the PAD's protests directly result in changes in government. Protest 1 - 9 months+ of protests against Thaksin then the army steps in in a coup.

Protest 2 - again something like 9 months of protesting against PPP for trying to fiddle the constitution to bring back Thaksin and also for electoral fraud including the occupation of the airport....end result not decided by them but by the courts when PPP was (and this was no surprise to anyone who understands the constitution and has read the relevant clauses) disbanded - logic would have been for PPP to actually have engaged in some positive policy for a year in power, but instead they first apologised for having a lousy cabinet, then did nothing and basically it wasn't much of a surprise that they fell apart - or at least more logical PPP should have dissolved prior and called another election - again they didn't because, let's be honest, PPP and PT are politically a bunch of idiots who honestly were too stupid to see that obviously breaching the constitution was not going to be in their best interests.

In other words.....PAD haven't exactly got a great trackrecord of getting what they want.

As for this so called Suchinda meeting. Those of you who remember Prem and Suchinda...sorry you have it a bit wrong; I think you mean Chamlong Srimuang and Suchinda - the protest leader and the embattled PM.

I have spent most of the last week working, but while working, taking the serious effort of listening to red shirt rally speeches basically for at least 4-5 hours per day, simply to understand and try to learn what they are actually saying. Mostly in the evening, as the day speeches are pretty dull. 5pm - 11pm is the golden time for some serious talking on stage.

For those of you who don't speak Thai, man do I have a disappointment for you. It is like listening to a 10 year old repeat again and again and again for 5 days the same points over and over and over.

Abhisit is bad and a murderer

Prem is to blame for everything

We will be victorious very very soon

Thaksin will ring soon; Thaksin just rang; etc

Thailand has many many problems

Thaksin has many acheivements

Abhisit brought in AFTA and many things that are harming you, he doesn't care about you

Nothing we do is wrong, we are entirely in the right

Everything that is wrong, is the fault of the Amartaya

All media is reporting fairly and showing the truth/all media is biased and against us

Interestingly, in 5 days, I did not hear much in terms of actual concrete steps of what they plan to do with the power. In fact, I cannot recall ONCE in probably a total of 20 hours+ listening hearing a political manifesto of what they want.

The tempo and pace of speaking however, particularly Jatuporn. It is obvious he has had some motivitation speaking training....it is quite well done, to whip the crowd into a frenzy. Because certainly in spending a little time with the red shirts over the last few weeks as I've waded through their filth and trash everywhere. It is not uncommon to see most not really listening and just basically clapping at the queued times - hence the need for good speaking pace.

I really don't know how this is going to end.....but what I can say is that if I found out my leaders were staying in a plush hotel 10km+ away from the rally site in comfort, while I was sleeping on the ground......I would hardly been enamoured with their vindictive fairy tale world of democracy and equality.

BUt then again....that's because I am amartaya ;-), apparently to be prai you must either be a fugitive billionaire, a very wealthy army general or a fiery public speaker who stays in comfort at the SC Park Hotel.

[animatic]

So the next time 100,000 people come out calling for an election, the next government will call an election too, won't they. And then after that ............

That would seem to be the precedent set by the PAD, so yes.

The PAD did their damage. The reds have done their damage.

So when is it going to stop? Why not now?

Exactly.

Preventing ANY thoughts of Round #3 should take precedent over short term political liabilities.

The Buck must stop here. Or it will encourage an endless cycle of mob abuses.

PAD did it once, Reds did it too, but this ends now, no more, no tit for tat, end of the cycle.

[BNZ]

 The Reds,(even though I think they have moral right on their side)

Bah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Yeah the morality of 'Ronin Warriors'

and the Yellows towards Idi Amin, Robert Mugabe

Bah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha 

grandpops That's that funniest post yet

[animatic]

So the next time 100,000 people come out calling for an election, the next government will call an election too, won't they. And then after that ............

That would seem to be the precedent set by the PAD, so yes.

Well actually in neither case did the PAD's protests directly result in changes in government. Protest 1 - 9 months+ of protests against Thaksin then the army steps in in a coup.

Protest 2 - again something like 9 months of protesting against PPP for trying to fiddle the constitution to bring back Thaksin and also for electoral fraud including the occupation of the airport....end result not decided by them but by the courts when PPP was (and this was no surprise to anyone who understands the constitution and has read the relevant clauses) disbanded - logic would have been for PPP to actually have engaged in some positive policy for a year in power, but instead they first apologised for having a lousy cabinet, then did nothing and basically it wasn't much of a surprise that they fell apart - or at least more logical PPP should have dissolved prior and called another election - again they didn't because, let's be honest, PPP and PT are politically a bunch of idiots who honestly were too stupid to see that obviously breaching the constitution was not going to be in their best interests.

In other words.....PAD haven't exactly got a great trackrecord of getting what they want.

As for this so called Suchinda meeting. Those of you who remember Prem and Suchinda...sorry you have it a bit wrong; I think you mean Chamlong Srimuang and Suchinda - the protest leader and the embattled PM.

I have spent most of the last week working, but while working, taking the serious effort of listening to red shirt rally speeches basically for at least 4-5 hours per day, simply to understand and try to learn what they are actually saying. Mostly in the evening, as the day speeches are pretty dull. 5pm - 11pm is the golden time for some serious talking on stage.

For those of you who don't speak Thai, man do I have a disappointment for you. It is like listening to a 10 year old repeat again and again and again for 5 days the same points over and over and over.

Abhisit is bad and a murderer

Prem is to blame for everything

We will be victorious very very soon

Thaksin will ring soon; Thaksin just rang; etc

Thailand has many many problems

Thaksin has many acheivements

Abhisit brought in AFTA and many things that are harming you, he doesn't care about you

Nothing we do is wrong, we are entirely in the right

Everything that is wrong, is the fault of the Amartaya

All media is reporting fairly and showing the truth/all media is biased and against us

Interestingly, in 5 days, I did not hear much in terms of actual concrete steps of what they plan to do with the power. In fact, I cannot recall ONCE in probably a total of 20 hours+ listening hearing a political manifesto of what they want.

The tempo and pace of speaking however, particularly Jatuporn. It is obvious he has had some motivation speaking training....it is quite well done, to whip the crowd into a frenzy. Because certainly in spending a little time with the red shirts over the last few weeks as I've waded through their filth and trash everywhere. It is not uncommon to see most not really listening and just basically clapping at the queued times - hence the need for good speaking pace.

I really don't know how this is going to end.....but what I can say is that if I found out my leaders were staying in a plush hotel 10km+ away from the rally site in comfort, while I was sleeping on the ground......I would hardly been enamored with their vindictive fairy tale world of democracy and equality.

BUt then again....that's because I am amartaya ;-), apparently to be prai you must either be a fugitive billionaire, a very wealthy army general or a fiery public speaker who stays in comfort at the SC Park Hotel.

Thank you yet again for an extremely lucid and informed post,

up to date and filled with clearly stated information.

Seems the Reds specialize in negative sound bites and hyperbole.

But actual political ideas are missing, and not even considered worth addressing.

Clearly their political wing PTP, has proved no competence in Parliament.

In fact, embody an impediment to parliamentary functioning.

Laws for the people pass, and Parliament functions when PTP boycots it.

You can't make up this stuff, reality IS stranger than fiction....

[rabo]

Yes, I was here. I remember going down to Ratchadaemnon and counting all the bullet holes.

[clip]

Interesting recollection on life here during that period of time. Thanks for posting it!

Even though the media censorship might be less of a problem now compared to then, surely you are INCORRECT in your assertion that "there has been no media crackdown except that media guilty of incitement". 1000s of websites have been shut down! THere is NOTHING available on Thai television other than pro-govt point-of-view channels. It's the continuing censorship that really drives home the mistrust that in turn ratchets up the Hatred even more than if they allowed the channels and websites to continue.

OK, I'm willing to meet you half way on that one. It was not good to close down PTV, it was wrong and it was a serious aggravation. They should have found a better way. For sure, the government is no angel and not to be trusted either. I just think truth is a little bit more in their favor, this time. I also just asked, and was told there are about 6 to 7 television stations in Bangkok, most are Thai.

EDIT: I stand corrected, it would have been Chamlong and Suchinda in the scolding when the violence was resolved in 1992.

Edited April 19, 2010 by rabo

[FreedomDude]

Or just dissolve parliament.

Which would solve exactly NOTHING... so any other bright ideas?

Umm Errr Have an Election

So the next time 100,000 people come out calling for an election, the next government will call an election too, won't they. And then after that ............

No, only the Reds ask for elections. The yellows don't like elections, because they can't win them. They like coups, legal disqulifications and hiding behind censorship and anti-free speech laws.

Edited April 19, 2010 by FreedomDude

[hextac]

So the next time 100,000 people come out calling for an election, the next government will call an election too, won't they. And then after that ............

That would seem to be the precedent set by the PAD, so yes.

Well actually in neither case did the PAD's protests directly result in changes in government.

[vicco]

Well no matter which side of the political fence you are on you have to admit that the need for "elite" "special forces" "commandos" "US trained SEAL units" etc must mean

that we have an unusually high caliber group of protester here. In the rest of the world protesters are dispersed by the local police with tear gas, maybe a bit of water and in exceptional circumstances plastic or rubber bullets. Maybe this will set a whole new standard for the animal rights, enviromental, anti seal hunting, anti fur wearing, anti G7/G8, anti everything groups around the world. Beef up those special forces units budgets quick. Raging Grannies demanding pension increases-..sent in the SWAT teams...

[Mosha]

Looking at the pictures posted recently, some of the pics dated 16th. I can't believe some of the idiots still have their babies at this demonstration. Is it they're idiots or don't care? When the military goes in will the brave red leaders have these people as their "shock" troops? ie these are the ones that wil be used to shock the western media.

[daboyz1]

<br />I've been here for about 12 years with a family and home in Nakhon Phanom and work as a consulting engineer in Bangkok and Phuket. Over the past week I have spoken to many Thais in our village and in Bangkok and Phuket. All walks of life from engineers and lawyers to farm workers, taxi drivers, construction workers and bar staff.<br /><br />I am very depressed.<br /><br />Sad fact is that there are no easy solutions here. The problems are so ingrained in society that it will take two generations to make much difference.<br /><br />On the face of it, there is democracy here in the shape of one man, one vote. Sadly, this is so distorted by feudalism and corruption that it is now a sham. It seems Thais typically vote as directed or in the expectation that they will receive some immediate pecuniary gain. This drives corruption but how else can they vote when no parties publish a manifesto? <br /><br />It seems that many ordinary Thais have no problem with Abhisit or Korn, EXCEPT that they are surrounded by others whom they believe to be corrupt and CRITICALLY, fail to weed them out and thus are thus seen to be not even handed.<br /><br />Real concern is education which, although now free, is widely acknowledged to be extremly poor.<br /><br />Thaksin's populist policies are widely acknowledged to be failures:-<br /><br />The 30TBT health care was not funded and thus turned out to be useless.<br /><br />The village funds were abused. Funds were used to pay gambling debts and local interest rates were usurious.<br /><br />It seems that the only way forward is to proceed step wise:-<br /><br />1) Ensure voting is secure and confidential<br /><br />2) Use the full force of the law to punish politicians found to be corrupt. And do it quickly.<br /><br />3) Take action to improve education standards. Teach morality and free thinking. Improve vocational training standards<br /><br />4) Rely on the ballot box only to force a change in government<br /><br />I spoke to a highly intelligent Thai woman just recently. She is lawyer and young mother (and married to an Australian - Heh, no-ones perfect!) and expects to become a barrister. I asked her if she was offered money to do something unethical would she take it. Without hesitation she replied "if it would help my family, yes". I was just so depressed to hear that even young intelligent Thais see nothing wrong with corruption.<br /><br />As I said at the start, I see no simple way forward. In the long run, better education and eradication of corruption is required but that will take a couple of generations.<br /><br />In the short term I hope Abhist shows his integrity and cleans out his own stable before calling elections. If he does this, and publishes a sensible manifesto, he might, just might win a real mandate.<br /><br />

<br /><br /><br />

Nail on head!

[stevotoo]

Well no matter which side of the political fence you are on you have to admit that the need for "elite" "special forces" "commandos" "US trained SEAL units" etc must mean

that we have an unusually high caliber group of protester here. In the rest of the world protesters are dispersed by the local police with tear gas, maybe a bit of water and in exceptional circumstances plastic or rubber bullets. Maybe this will set a whole new standard for the animal rights, enviromental, anti seal hunting, anti fur wearing, anti G7/G8, anti everything groups around the world. Beef up those special forces units budgets quick. Raging Grannies demanding pension increases-..sent in the SWAT teams...

No- I think it means they can't rely on anyone else to do it

[stevotoo]

Looking at the pictures posted recently, some of the pics dated 16th. I can't believe some of the idiots still have their babies at this demonstration. Is it they're idiots or don't care? When the military goes in will the brave red leaders have these people as their "shock" troops? ie these are the ones that wil be used to shock the western media.

Maybe the babies also qualify for payments!!

[Insight]

Looking at the pictures posted recently, some of the pics dated 16th. I can't believe some of the idiots still have their babies at this demonstration. Is it they're idiots or don't care? When the military goes in will the brave red leaders have these people as their "shock" troops? ie these are the ones that wil be used to shock the western media.

Maybe the babies also qualify for payments!!

Operation human shield in action.

Surely any responsible protest leader anticipating a crackdown would advise the women and kids to find safety. Instead (according to one source on Twitter), they're dragging them on stage.

Red sympathisers, let's hear your excuses for this one.

Edited April 19, 2010 by Insight

[chantorn]

If I am the commander, I would:

1. Drop a dozen of their best snipers on the roof top of surrounding building via helicopters.

2. Aim and shoot both legs of all the RED leaders (not to kill them, just wound them).

3. Airlift the snipers out.

4. Repeat from step one to three, everyday, at 8am & 6pm when evryone (including the RED) will have to stand up for the national anthem.

Since the legs of the RED leaders are injured, they have to go hospital, nearest of which is the police hospital. The police can then arrest them there will they were receiving treatment.

Does anyone think this is a peaceful way to end the standoff?

[Brocher]

Anything from the illegal government about how "tooled up" the Military junta are?

Any more mad Rambo colonels been deployed to shoot up the redshirts?

You've got it turned around 180 degrees. The gov't is not illegal. It came about similar to the Thaksin, Samak and Somchai governments - via coalition building among elected reps according to a parliamentary system. It's not the most solid coalition, but it's no less legal than the two preceding gov't's, and Thaksin was holding on by the skin of his teeth with a self-imposed 'caretaker PM' position that was past its due date when the military stepped in with a bloodless coup. Where were the Reds when the coup happened? Not one iota of support for T nor one peep of protest at the time. Why were the Reds not protesting when Samak and Somchai were put in the power seat (?) - by similar constitutional means as Abhisit.

The 'mad Rambo colonel' you mentioned was an army officer doing his assigned job - who was specifically targeted by rogue elements of the Red Shirts. A laser was shone on him, then a smoke bomb was tossed at him (to further target him), then immediately a grenade was tossed - which killed him and wounded soldiers in his vicinity. Few if any security forces worldwide would have had the self-control that Thai forces showed on April 10th. Most forces would have immediately gone to full tilt destroy mode (that's what military are trained for, to kill and destroy) .....and gunned down a slew of Thais - Reds and their automatic weapon totting buddies in black. If that had happened, then you could rightly call the colonel 'mad Rambo' Instead, you had an ill-led, overly cautious, non-vengeful military that night - and hence, much less bloodshed than would be expected in such circumstances.

Excellent factual posting but you're wasting your time - the Thaksin/Red Shirt apologists and supporters are NOT interested in hard facts and the truth by taking a balanced look at both sides of the picture - they just parrot Thaksin propaganda and close their minds to anything else

[quartz]

surely you are INCORRECT in your assertion that "there has been no media crackdown except that media guilty of incitement". 1000s of websites have been shut down!

Just a note that even before this began, and for many years now, hundreds of thousands of websites were blocked and redirected to static ICT warning site.

I can't remember when exactly that has started. It's a long time ago. Anyone remembers?

With great flourish, on Feb. 2, 2006, the Minister of Information and Communication Technology in the Thaksin cabinet, Sora-at Klinpratoom, proudly announced the grand plan to block 1,000,000 websites deemed "unsuitable" or "inappropriate" and that they would be shut down "in a few weeks."

He said that the government was coordinating with CAT Telecom to install software capable of blocking all these "undesirable" websites.

...and to read FreedomDude speak of "1,000's"

[stevotoo]

If I am the commander, I would:

1. Drop a dozen of their best snipers on the roof top of surrounding building via helicopters.

2. Aim and shoot both legs of all the RED leaders (not to kill them, just wound them).

3. Airlift the snipers out.

4. Repeat from step one to three, everyday, at 8am & 6pm when evryone (including the RED) will have to stand up for the national anthem.

Since the legs of the RED leaders are injured, they have to go hospital, nearest of which is the police hospital. The police can then arrest them there will they were receiving treatment.

Does anyone think this is a peaceful way to end the standoff?

In what way is shooting people a peaceful solution?

[chantorn]

I'm pretty sure closing airports is more detrimental to trade and tourism than malls.

This is very subjective.

I only fly about once every few years, so I do not care if PAD shut the airports of not.

However I shop at least twice week, so closing airports is less detrimental to trade and tourism than malls. To me at least.

Guess what, my favourite mall is Gayson Plaza.

[stevotoo]

surely you are INCORRECT in your assertion that "there has been no media crackdown except that media guilty of incitement". 1000s of websites have been shut down!

Just a note that even before this began, and for many years now, hundreds of thousands of websites were blocked and redirected to static ICT warning site.

I can't remember when exactly that has started. It's a long time ago. Anyone remembers?

With great flourish, on Feb. 2, 2006, the Minister of Information and Communication Technology in the Thaksin cabinet, Sora-at Klinpratoom, proudly announced the grand plan to block 1,000,000 websites deemed "unsuitable" or "inappropriate" and that they would be shut down "in a few weeks."

He said that the government was coordinating with CAT Telecom to install software capable of blocking all these "undesirable" websites.

...and to read FreedomDude speak of "1,000's"

1 000 000 probably includes this forum

[stevotoo]

I'm pretty sure closing airports is more detrimental to trade and tourism than malls.

This is very subjective.

I only fly about once every few years, so I do not care if PAD shut the airports of not.

However I shop at least twice week, so closing airports is less detrimental to trade and tourism than malls. To me at least.

Guess what, my favourite mall is Gayson Plaza.

And your shopping for luxury goods is more important than anything else?