Fiancee Visa Refused

[grandma2jaret]

Last November my son's fiancee Nong went to British Embassy. She took all documentation they asked for and said she wanted to come to UK on 26th Feb.

They said that they would give her the Visa. But to return on Feb 15th as it was closer to travel date, and bring proof of pay and bank of my son from November to Feb (they had everything up until then).

Today she went to the Embassy and they say that my son does not have enough money to keep her.

Brent is 23 years old and is actually engaged to his sister-in-law. Nong's sister is married to my eldest son and they have been living here (UK) for 3 years. Brent is in the RN as a submariner. Earns good money and is careful with it.

Nong is 26 and has done everything now with a view to coming to UK on the ticket she has bought for the 26th feb.

We are all devastated and just don't know where else to turn. Any advice would be appreciated.

[britmaveric]

First off your son needs to respond in kind to refute the allegations that he doesnt have enough dosh to support his fiance. Provide enough documentation to support this.

I'm sure Scouser will give more details ....

[GU22]

Today she went to the Embassy and they say that my son does not have enough money to keep her.

What were the actual words they used? Was it something like "I am not satisfied that your fiance can support and accommodate you without recourse to public funds."

Did he provide pay slips and bank statements to prove his ability to support her?

What about accommodation? Does he own or rent property? Or will the navy provide married quarters? Or would she have been staying with you? Whichever it is, did he provide evidence of what accommodation is available?

The first thing to do is contact the Entry Clearance Manager at the Bangkok embassy (Contact details here) and ask for the decision to be reviewed. However, the ECM can only decide if the original decision was correct based upon the evidence supplied by the applicant. If this evidence was lacking then the ECM will not overturn the decision.

Otherwise, she and your son have to decide if it is worth appealing against the decision, or simply re-applying but this time with more evidence of his finances and the accommodation available.

But until we have answers to the questions above it is difficult to advise further. If possible, the complete wording of the refusal notice would be a great help in advising you further.

[Jersey_UK]

First off your son needs to respond in kind to refute the allegations that he doesnt have enough dosh to support his fiance. Provide enough documentation to support this.

I'm sure Scouser will give more details ....

I am sure Scouser will too........

If you go down the "talking to your MP route"......as an addition / alternative I was going to suggest a "stiff letter to the Times"............but it may be more appropriate to try to interest the Daily Heil (Mail) . Along the lines of that he is a 23 year old serving his country in a dangerous job, his wife is not a dangerous radical (hopefully for these purposes she is a Buddhist!) and if some uppity Civil Servant / representative of Tony Blair is saying that he does not earn enough to have a wife - then how f#ck does Tony Bliar figure that he IS paid enough to be prepared to put his life on the line for his country? If you can name the ECO and ECM then all the better (IMHO) - of course it would help if it was not easy to prove her previous career involved "Ping Pongs" etc

Maybe also ask him / his MP to write to Toney Blair to ask the question how much does he need to support a wife and if it is more than he is paid.........can he have some money.

This is not meant entirely as a joke.

[Rj 81]

To me it sounds like the Embassy were thinking the application was for a visit visa and not a fiancee visa. Asking the applicant to return nearer to the time of intended travel, I'm don't know maybe not.

Jersey, the past or current profession of any applicant is not part of the criterea needed to be successfully granted a visa.

[Jersey_UK]

Jersey, the past or current profession of any applicant is not part of the criterea needed to be successfully granted a visa.

I appreciate this, but my comments in this thread were more if OP wanted to go down the "Daily Mail" route...it perhaps would not be such a good idea if she had a "history". (actually, thinking again since I posted, perhaps not a "good" idea anyway..........it just kinda "got my goat" when I read the original post).

[silomfan]

As GU22 says, not much advice can be given until you give us a bit more detail , especially how much does he earn approx and can be proved, and also details of provable accommmodation.

SILOMFAN

[britmaveric]

Copies of lease, monthly payments, ownership... take photos. Proof of Income. The more information to support the validity of the claims the better his case will be.

[the scouser]

It would be unusual for a visa officer to promise to issue a visa before the case has been fully considered. To do so, and then not grant it, is a breach of public faith. From the circumstances posted here, it seems as if the application might have been made and an interview date given, whereupon the visa was refused.

Anyway, it is always possible to make representations to the head of the visa section and UK Visas, asking that the original decision be overturned, but before any guidance can be given, the wording of the refusal notice would have to be known.

Scouse.

[spacebass]

Last November my son's fiancee Nong went to British Embassy. She took all documentation they asked for and said she wanted to come to UK on 26th Feb.

They said that they would give her the Visa. But to return on Feb 15th as it was closer to travel date, and bring proof of pay and bank of my son from November to Feb (they had everything up until then).

Today she went to the Embassy and they say that my son does not have enough money to keep her.

Brent is 23 years old and is actually engaged to his sister-in-law. Nong's sister is married to my eldest son and they have been living here (UK) for 3 years. Brent is in the RN as a submariner. Earns good money and is careful with it.

Nong is 26 and has done everything now with a view to coming to UK on the ticket she has bought for the 26th feb.

We are all devastated and just don't know where else to turn. Any advice would be appreciated.

GU22??

[GU22]

Spacebass??

[grandma2jaret]

Last November my son's fiancee Nong went to British Embassy. She took all documentation they asked for and said she wanted to come to UK on 26th Feb.

They said that they would give her the Visa. But to return on Feb 15th as it was closer to travel date, and bring proof of pay and bank of my son from November to Feb (they had everything up until then).

Today she went to the Embassy and they say that my son does not have enough money to keep her.

Brent is 23 years old and is actually engaged to his sister-in-law. Nong's sister is married to my eldest son and they have been living here (UK) for 3 years. Brent is in the RN as a submariner. Earns good money and is careful with it.

Nong is 26 and has done everything now with a view to coming to UK on the ticket she has bought for the 26th feb.

We are all devastated and just don't know where else to turn. Any advice would be appreciated.

GU22??

[blue eyes]

Cheers garandma2jaret,

Can not answer your ? but maybe someone at this site may help.It is for visa to USA but there are Brits on there also. www.visajourney.com

[grandma2jaret]

Well....strange turn of events. I had emailed the Embassy and got in touch with my MP (I am in the UK).

He was brilliant and said he would assist the appeal through UKVisas Parliamentary Unit. I had given him other information to back up what I was saying.

Then I got an email from Entry Clearance Manager...saying he had reviewed the case and took into account other info he had been given, also checked the status of the decision made last November.

He said he had overturned the original decision and the Visa will be granted. She has now attended the Embassy..got her Visa and arrives on March 9th.

So they can be challenged and others in good positions can help....

So...anyone else in our position, don't give up without a fight. My MP was superb, as was UKVisas Parliamentary Unit....

Thanks to all who took the time to answer me.

[spacebass]

Well....strange turn of events. I had emailed the Embassy and got in touch with my MP (I am in the UK).

He was brilliant and said he would assist the appeal through UKVisas Parliamentary Unit. I had given him other information to back up what I was saying.

Then I got an email from Entry Clearance Manager...saying he had reviewed the case and took into account other info he had been given, also checked the status of the decision made last November.

He said he had overturned the original decision and the Visa will be granted. She has now attended the Embassy..got her Visa and arrives on March 9th.

So they can be challenged and others in good positions can help....

So...anyone else in our position, don't give up without a fight. My MP was superb, as was UKVisas Parliamentary Unit....

Thanks to all who took the time to answer me.

Brilliant.

Remember Guys and Gals the only chance you have to make British Embassies behave in a legal manner (i.e. applying the relevant Act of Parliament verbatim, as statutes should be applied), which involves an appeal from a civil servants whim, currently not available within the framework of the immigration act, is to involve your MP.

When I make my application I will do it through an agent (choose carefully) and part of his brief will be to appraise my M.P. of whatever nonsense the civil servants at the UK Embassy dream up, as they likely or not will, (after all you future depends on their whim!)

The above shows that even in the British Diplomatic Core today its who you know that counts not the facts, I mean look at the Ex Ministers housemaid!!!! Shes in!

[GU22]

Well....strange turn of events. I had emailed the Embassy and got in touch with my MP (I am in the UK).

He was brilliant and said he would assist the appeal through UKVisas Parliamentary Unit. I had given him other information to back up what I was saying.

Then I got an email from Entry Clearance Manager...saying he had reviewed the case and took into account other info he had been given, also checked the status of the decision made last November.

He said he had overturned the original decision and the Visa will be granted. She has now attended the Embassy..got her Visa and arrives on March 9th.

So they can be challenged and others in good positions can help....

All of which shows that the system does work. ECOs are human, they can make mistakes, and there are mechanisms in place to correct those mistakes.

If possible, it would be interesting to have further details on two points.

I had emailed the Embassy and got in touch with my MP

What were the timescales? Basically, was there time for your MP to do anything, or was it simply you asking the ECM to intervene that did the trick?

he had reviewed the case and took into account other info he had been given

What other info? Why wasn't this info included in the original application?

Anyway, it's all resolved now and the best of luck to you and yours for the future.

[the scouser]

UK Visas has a dedicated MPs correspondence section. They do take letters from MPs seriously and, if the original decision is flawed, it will be overturned.

Of course, it doesn't have to be an MP who writes to UK Visas, either the applicant or sponsor can do so, too. However, in the content of the letter it is not sufficient to just say the decision is wrong and you want a review: you do have to state why you think the decision is wrong and how the ECO has erred in interpretation of the law.

Well done,

Scouse.

[spacebass]

Yes the system does work when supervised by Members of Parliament based in the U.K. a very sad reflection on the integrity of the British Diplomatic Corps who are unable to discipline themselves, and very inconvenient for mature tax paying citizens of Britain who need to resort to their M.P.s to get what should be the norm, i.e. The consistent and unbiased application of British Law, however this will never happen as long as Embassies remain a law unto themselves.

As others have implied getting your M.P. involved is part of the system so be prepared.

Edited March 4, 2006 by spacebass

[the scouser]

I am aware of 8 members of this forum who have independently written to UK Visas asking that the decision to refuse a visa be overturned prior to an appeal being heard. 7 have been successful.

Scouse.

[GU22]

As others have implied getting your M.P. involved is part of the system so be prepared.

As we don't know the timescales we don't know if the involvement of the OPs MP had any bearing on the matter. Like Scouse, I know of several cases where people have had a refusal overturned without involving their MP at all.

However, this is a democracy so one does have the option of involving an MP if one wishes.

[thai3]

Yes the system does work when supervised by Members of Parliament based in the U.K. a very sad reflection on the integrity of the British Diplomatic Corps who are unable to discipline themselves, and very inconvenient for mature tax paying citizens of Britain who need to resort to their M.P.s to get what should be the norm, i.e. The consistent and unbiased application of British Law, however this will never happen as long as Embassies remain a law unto themselves.

As others have implied getting your M.P. involved is part of the system so be prepared.

When we have to waste an MP's time to reverse a wrong decision surely this is evidence that the system does NOT work as well as it should and that we are at the mercy of undisciplined and biased interview officers. The whole system is a shambles, do the embassy ever mention this route of redress? of course not they just want you to spend more money on another application without any help to overcome their, sometimes, eccentric refusal points.

[GU22]

Except where the category of visa does not carry a right of appeal, all unsuccessful applicants are made aware of the appeals procedure. See the notes on the bottom of Refusal Form GV51 (FRA) (PDF, 59K) . They are also given AIT-2 appeal form and leaflet (from 4 April 2005) (PDF, 462K). If they wish to seek expert advice they are of course at liberty to do so, and indeed should.

Not all categories of visa carry a right of appeal. Who decided this? MPs.

It is worth remembering that an MP will (and can) only help you if in his/her (or rather his/her staff's) opinion the decision was not in accordance with the relevant section of the immigration rules. If the refusal was justified, and especially if it was due to poor preparation, then there is not a lot that an MP can do.

[the scouser]

Any decision made by a public servant is open to challenge in court, whether a statutory right of appeal exists or not. The procedure is called judicial review, and is relevant where it is believed that the public servant acted outside of his/her powers (ultra vires).

If those who have been refused are so sure that they are genuine, they won't mind spending a few thou on a JR case.

Scouse.

[silomfan]

I think the point that spacebass and thai3 are making is that the system should be better regulated to ensure that applications , that are subsequently overturned (and therefore WRONGLY refused to start with) shouldn't have to go through all this inconvenience to get what they are entitled to anyway (they are entitiled to it otherwise it wouldn't have been overturned).

It comes back to the point i have always made which is that the Embassy is a law unto itself, and in any case not accountable enough to us . If an application is refused then why can't the sponser (there usually is one) just call up the Embassy and check what else is needed and then be given a couple of days to get it . If you have a complaint with a store you ask to see the manager and sort it out . Why is this so different?

SILOMFAN

PS i forgot to comment on scoucers point . He suggests a genuine case wrongly refused shouldn't mind spending a few thousand pounds on a JRto get it corrected. I find it unbelievable that someone could post that . Why the hel_l should you spend a penny to correct something that is wrong ?? The system should be improved to ensure that genuine cases are NEVER refused .

SILOMFAN

[GU22]

Yet again, Silomfan, you are saying that the system should be perfect and mistakes should never be made. Yet again I can only say that this is impossible. Can you honestly say that you have never ever made a mistake in either your professional or private life?

I suppose you will now say that mistakes you make don't effect the lives of others. To which I can only answer; you are very lucky! Every human being is capable of mistakes, and those whose mistakes can be devastating to others carry a burden which you and I will never appreciate.

In the case of visas, no system will ever completely eradicate mistakes, and measures are in place which can and do rectify them.

You continuously say that people are entitled to a visa. Where in any UK, European or other law does it say this?

[silomfan]

YES GU22 you are right ..i have made numerous mistakes in my private life and a few in my professional life .

YES you are also right in that i can say none of my mistakes have affected the lives of others in the context you are talking about .

And YES i can sleep at night knowing i have never done anything to destroy other peoples lives . Can any current or , mentioning no names , ex-ECO's say that ? No doubt they would say they are only "doing their job". So were the SS

SILOMFAN

[GU22]

And YES i can sleep at night knowing i have never done anything to destroy other peoples lives . Can any current or , mentioning no names , ex-ECO's say that ? No doubt they would say they are only "doing their job". So were the SS

That is outrageous! Comparing ECO's with the SS! Last time I looked unsuccessful applicants were not marched straight to the gas chamber!

What about doctors. Their mistakes kill people, yet they are only doing their job. Going to compare them with the SS as well?"!

I expect this sort of rubbish from Thai3, but I thought you were more intelligent than that!

[the scouser]

Silomfan,

During your membership of this forum you have made your views clear and have had every opportunity to state them. I do find the cracked record rather tedious, though, and am closing the thread for that reason. If you have something to contribute, then please do so, but not if it's the same old thing over and over again.

Yes, you have had an adverse effect on people's lives as your negativity and alarmism as disseminated here have dissuaded some from applying for visas. You have therefore done the nasty ECOs' job for them.

Scouse.