Sauna In Bangkok

[Redford]

Hi there,

I am conducting a survey of Bangkok's sauna. I hope this is fine with the people of this forum. Please let me know if there is any problem but it is an important work for me.

Wether you go or not to sauna, you can help me by completing a short questionnaire (20 questions) that won't take you more than 5 minutes.

No scam, no porn but a serious study.

http://www.my3q.com/home2/113/roger_jg/35185.phtml

Results are available online in real time.

If you have any question, email me.

Best and thanks for your help!

~R

and please forward to your friends!

[jdinasia]

I have no idea if this belongs on the forum ...

But having seen this spammed on gay.com and looked at the survey ... and asked pointed questions I never did get an answer to WHY the survey is being done ... other than it looks like a way for a guy to try and approach them as a 'consultant' etc to make $

When my friend who said "I never go to saunas and never will" was still encouraged to take the survey it lost all credibility in my mind and appeared to be looking just to generate hits/#'s

Sadly it doesn't touch on real issues that exist in some places either ... so until I see it posted on a legit NGO website or elsewhere ... I'll pass on taking the survey

[Redford]

I have no idea if this belongs on the forum ...

But having seen this spammed on gay.com and looked at the survey ... and asked pointed questions I never did get an answer to WHY the survey is being done ... other than it looks like a way for a guy to try and approach them as a 'consultant' etc to make $

When my friend who said "I never go to saunas and never will" was still encouraged to take the survey it lost all credibility in my mind and appeared to be looking just to generate hits/#'s

Sadly it doesn't touch on real issues that exist in some places either ... so until I see it posted on a legit NGO website or elsewhere ... I'll pass on taking the survey

You should have emailed me and I would have been pleased to provide you with details.

The number of HIV case is on the increase again in Bangkok. Check this article:

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/medicalnews.php?newsid=31485

where Senator and leading HIV/AIDS advocate Mechai Viravaidya expresses his concern about people thinking that AIDS has gone away.

Sauna in Bangkok attract a huge clientele mostly of young Thais who may not have a huge awareness of HIV and AIDS-related issues. Sauna's owner may not be willing to do something to improve this awareness for various reasons. Targetting sauna and trying to bring them in the fight against HIV is fundamental.

This survey is a preliminary work that I am doing. I am just testing the water. I am not paid for doing this and nobody is asked for some money. You should really read the survey.

This is a real issue and your message illustrate how difficult is is to reach people, even those who are the most concerned.

There is no need to have been or to go to as sauna, because as I explained to you on gay.com, everybody's opinion matters. AIDS is a global epidemics.

The reason why it is not on an NGO website for now is very simple. It is a sensitive issues that requieres a carefull approach but I have already approached known NGO. If you can offer free web hosting for this survey I'll be more than greatful.

If you need more info, PM/email me and I'll send you my phone number and you can talk to me in person. I hope this answer your worries.

Regards

R.

[jdinasia]

sorry ... doesn't answer my questions .... ((all in my not so humble opinion)

If by your (correct assessment) that saunas are MOSTLY used by Thais .. why isn't the survey in Thai?

The NGO's working in the HIV field targetting gays/msm are already working in this area with the saunas that farang go to. Condoms and lube are provided either without asking (normally) or at a few you have to request ...

Get with a legit NGO then maybe .. but the survey targetting Farang and a few English speaking/reading Thais just doesn't make any sense

Edited July 12, 2006 by jdinasia

[bkkguy1970]

he NGO's working in the HIV field targetting gays/msm are already working in this area with the saunas that farang go to.

and the saunas that locals go to as well, and the parks and cruising areas etc, and working with the health authorities, the police and the venue owners - if Redford is not aware of how the NGOs are already handling this "sensitive" issue then he is probably wasting his time with his "survey"

bkkguy

[Redford]

he NGO's working in the HIV field targetting gays/msm are already working in this area with the saunas that farang go to.

and the saunas that locals go to as well, and the parks and cruising areas etc, and working with the health authorities, the police and the venue owners - if Redford is not aware of how the NGOs are already handling this "sensitive" issue then he is probably wasting his time with his "survey"

bkkguy

Please guys,

The issues are numerous, some great work is already being done by organisation like Rainbow Sky, Swing, Care, FHI and more.

As you may have understand from the question in the survey, the issue is about having a non commercial website that would provide relevant information about Bangkok saunas, especially in their approach to HIV awareness (Utopia already provide some basic infor from users)

You do not have to take this survey but please, don't let your cynism discourage other who are happy to help.

One can not do everything and there is always space to do more.

Regards

R

[DUMPSTER]

I have to agree with JD. If your concern is the increase in HIV in Bangkok and particularly young Thai men then why the heck are you asking farang men to do you questionaire? If your concern really is the health of young Thai men then why not question them?

You would be better of going to Babylon and speaking directly to Thai guys don't you think instead of trolling on here. A Dumpster tip would be getting the questionaire translated into Thai, I think you might find that will speed up the process. Blimey, I'm being so helpful today

Anyway I hate surveys and your one sounds like a load of <deleted> to me so I wont be visiting your site but good luck anyway

[Redford]

... If your concern really is the health of young Thai men then why not question them?

i can help you there, because I am very helpful too

There are many way to reach people, and a bit of sideway thinking can be useful. By targetting farangs it is possible to reach thai. It is very simple because thai spend quite a lot of time with farangs ...

Of course, not everybody will be reached, but what matters here, as hiv incidence is rising, is to reach as many people as possible using as many possible ways. This could be only a small component but every effort counts.

And as I explain earlier, this is a very early survey. Only a few peole have contributed but I have had some useful constructive comments on how to improve the questionnaire. That is what I am interested in first. The few negatives comments I have received are also useful. All will be taken into consideration if this project has to go further.

Yours

R

[DUMPSTER]

I'm still not quite convinced about your motives. I checked out your survey and it all looks rather fishy to me. Seems to be alot of questions about websites rather than how best to educate young Thai guys.

Edited July 12, 2006 by DUMPSTER

[Buki]

I went through the hassle of answering your questionnaire, and I answered honestly as I could. I noticed is that, the questions are not seemed to be geared to the topic at hand. There wasn't questions about awareness of aids. If this survey is truly for such purpose, it is very much half baked to be published and distributed to the respondents.

[Redford]

I went through the hassle of answering your questionnaire, and I answered honestly as I could. I noticed is that, the questions are not seemed to be geared to the topic at hand. There wasn't questions about awareness of aids. If this survey is truly for such purpose, it is very much half baked to be published and distributed to the respondents.

Thanks for doing it.

As I explain above and this also answer the previous poster, this is very preliminary and as you may have understood from the questions in the survey, the issue is about having a non commercial website that would provide relevant information about Bangkok saunas.

This is something a friend working for an NGO is considering doing and this is where I offered to help, though I did not know how strong the resistance would be. That is why there are many questions about a website. Again I am happy to talk about it in person (just email).

The survey will close today and even if I have had a limited number of answers, it was very informative regarding both the design and the process. The results will be treated very carefully because of the several limitations of the survey, of which I am well aware. Learning about this was also part of the process.

Thanks again,

Regards

R

[jdinasia]

... If your concern really is the health of young Thai men then why not question them?

i can help you there, because I am very helpful too

There are many way to reach people, and a bit of sideway thinking can be useful. By targetting farangs it is possible to reach thai. It is very simple because thai spend quite a lot of time with farangs ...

HUH? Most of the saunas in BKK (and elsewhere) are for Thais ... almost 0 Farang ... again this all looks way too fishy ...

Of course, not everybody will be reached, but what matters here, as hiv incidence is rising, is to reach as many people as possible using as many possible ways. This could be only a small component but every effort counts.

I would applaud extra work being done in the HIV education field ...... but if that is your goal ... as you say it is you should be targetting the 99% not the 1%

And as I explain earlier, this is a very early survey. Only a few peole have contributed but I have had some useful constructive comments on how to improve the questionnaire. That is what I am interested in first. The few negatives comments I have received are also useful. All will be taken into consideration if this project has to go further.

I think my help will still just be going to Faa Si Roong ... they make sense

Yours

R

[wowpow]

I did the questionnaire before reading the replies. I was very surprised at the brevity of the list of questions and cannot see how any remotely useful information can be generated.

Nothing seems to relate to HIV?AIDS prevention other than a suggestion that it is the sauna owner's responsibility to provide condoms? Of course that is convenient but it is everyones own responsibility to carry and use condoms and practice safe sex. Is any, shared, sex 100% safe?

I get a tad miffed when people use a forum for discussion and then invite people to talk or e-mail off the board. Fine if it is an ultra-sensitive area but otherwise let's all know.

I am very hesitant to question any effort to help prevent the spread of HIV/AIDS

but I strongly suggest that you think carefully and decide your objective and then plan how to achieve that, do it and then assess and repeat the process again.

I have little knowledge of how questionnaires work to reach a conclusion but there must be some relationship to polls so maybe have a read on Mr. Gallup?

Best wishes in your efforts

I went through the hassle of answering your questionnaire, and I answered honestly as I could. I noticed is that, the questions are not seemed to be geared to the topic at hand. There wasn't questions about awareness of aids. If this survey is truly for such purpose, it is very much half baked to be published and distributed to the respondents.

Thanks for doing it.

As I explain above and this also answer the previous poster, this is very preliminary and as you may have understood from the questions in the survey, the issue is about having a non commercial website that would provide relevant information about Bangkok saunas.

This is something a friend working for an NGO is considering doing and this is where I offered to help, though I did not know how strong the resistance would be. That is why there are many questions about a website. Again I am happy to talk about it in person (just email).

The survey will close today and even if I have had a limited number of answers, it was very informative regarding both the design and the process. The results will be treated very carefully because of the several limitations of the survey, of which I am well aware. Learning about this was also part of the process.

Thanks again,

Regards

R

[Redford]

I would applaud extra work being done in the HIV education field ...... but if that is your goal ... as you say it is you should be targetting the 99% not the 1%

There is no such thing as a 99%.

The MSM community is extremely fragmented in Thailand. Some Thai go to sauna, other go to parks, some prefer the internet, some only like thai, some prefer farang, some work near the grand palace, other on silom, some for money other because they like it.

There is not one community, but many and though there are some cross over, nobody would seriously consider targetting the "99%" on the basis that they are the "Thais group". Each group needs to be reached by different ways. All ways should be explored, with optimism and confidence.

R

[jdinasia]

I read back over the questions again ... thinkingI may have been a bit harsh/cynical .... after rereading it ... it comes across like I thuoght it did at first ... a way to approach sauna owners for advertisement.

knowing a few of the saunas *cough* in BKK and that they operate pretty much completely outside of the law ... I doubt they'd be much interested in that. They might be OK with making more HIV prevention information available ... but having a ENGLISH webpage touting their 6am closing times and booze etc ... I just don't see it `

[Redford]

I read back over the questions again ... thinkingI may have been a bit harsh/cynical .... after rereading it ... it comes across like I thuoght it did at first ... a way to approach sauna owners for advertisement.

knowing a few of the saunas *cough* in BKK and that they operate pretty much completely outside of the law ... I doubt they'd be much interested in that. They might be OK with making more HIV prevention information available ... but having a ENGLISH webpage touting their 6am closing times and booze etc ... I just don't see it `

Ahhhhh, now I understand your concerns better . You thought it was a way for saunas's owners to find out how they could get more cutomers by providing a website that would advertise them for free, right?

You got me puzzled for three days (maybe because in my honnesty I am too naif to think this could be the case!)

I see where this come from: the questions about what the website should rate if there was such website. That's very interesting because if you look at the answers, it comes out that those who answer are mostly interested in sauna's facilities. I guess that some people would be happy to exploit this.

I can only reassure you that this is not my intention at all. Give me some time and I will be in a better position to give more information. Anyway, this will be useful for the future.

Regards

R

[toptuan]

This is somewhat related, but not worth starting a new thread. It's generally related to the discussion of HIV and saunas. It's an excerpt from a chat conversation I had last night with a Malaysian friend who was a tourist in Bangkok last week. Any reaction/opinions?

_______________________________________________________________

k: Ajahn krab

j: Nong K! Sabaidi Baw?

k: i thought i saw u last week at the Big Mango

j: Nope, just some handsome actor you mistook for me

k: weren't u one of the horny farang men i saw

j: now that's probable

k: did u read my [blog] report on the Big Mango?

j: I think I read about your gay B_____ Sauna experience

k: did i say it was B______ Sauna?

j: (that was the place, wasn't it?) Just an educated guess

k: so, u know about it too

j: uhhh, I've heard about it from distant friends.....

k: have u been there b4?

j: no, just wished

k: well, i saw many malaysians there

j: really--Adonis Malaysians? Enjoy one of "those" massages?

k: enjoyed MORE than just the massaeges

j: ohhh; I'm just a little country boy, don't know what you're talking about....

k: but a little dissapointed

j: disappointed?

k: coz, i notice that rainbowlander relationship is all about sex and not love

j: exactly; which, in turn, means no one cares a bit whether you catch their HIV or not

k: i hope you and your soulmate have more than just sex; like a shared life together

j: we lived together almost one year before we had sex

k: i actually said NO to penetrative sex; i found it too scary

j: good for you

k: what happens if things go awry?

j: right; condoms have a 2% failure rate; that's too high for me when you're playing with death.

k: but i did jerk off a guy, and french-kissed a hot hunk

he just inserted his tongue into my mouth

j: careful, HIV can be transmitted via saliva, didn't you know?

k very low risk right?

j: true

k: anyway, it was more of an eye opener; and i jerked him off;

and he wanted to have oral sex.....i said NO

j: yen di duay! good for you

k: so he jerked me off instead

k: ha ha hee hee; and we kiss and like touch each other; no penetrative sex

j: sounds like you had a reasonably good time

k: i saw guys having sex without condoms

j: wow, Russian Roulette

k: dangerous; they were having sex EVERYWHERE

k: lots of old farang men waiting for sex too

j: overall, is B_______ a nice atmosphere? (facilities, restaurant, cleanliness, etc.)?

k: yeah, it was good

j: Was the friend who took you a "regular" customer?

k: i have actually very little faith in this friend of mine after listening to his experience

j: really? a little bit of a playboy?

k: he is a regular, and he was like having sex with so many people; scary

j: not good.... My life is too precious to play with.

j: I saw a good magazine ad about this once....

j: it showed a guy's dream body (neck on down);

j: the caption:

j: "A body to die for..."

j: ad about aids

j: effective

k: My friend said to me, "if you search for love, you will never find it." i guess, i want

L O V E, companionship and not about sex

j: wow, your friend is pretty cynical;

k: after visiting B______ Sauna i really felt very guilty, dirty and really SICKO; i guess, i made a lot of prayers after that;

j: well, I think you just confirmed a number of my suspicions; I probably will never go

k: suspicions like what?

j: suspicions that the place would be so shallow and promiscuous; that it would be sickening

k: yeah; I would never go again

j: I admire your good standards, Nong K_____... never lower them....

k: i hope i would remain so; I might go just to look-see-look-see; but NEVER To have sex with strangers

j: I and many other gays support you

k: i guess, even on my first try, i was adamant on NO sex

j: it was good you had your mind made up before you went; otherwise the emotions can carry you away

k: but gave in to kissing and mutual jerk off, carrasing, etc etc; i guess, i am still safe from hiv, right?

j: high percentage of safety, I would say; but like I said, even the remote possibility of transmission of disease via saliva bothers me; but I'm quite conservative about those matters; (I'm a total daredevil in many other ways, really!)

k: it is always good to educate a fellow rainbowlander; since i am so N A I V E

j: Oh yeah, but there's always the internet! Naw, you knew more than I did when you came into the fold

k: anyway, i hope it will NOT be this way

j: "this way"?

k: i meant like the thai friend i went with; to be so cynikel about love and relationships

j: I feel sorry for him

j: his expectations are so low, he'll probably never find a meaninful relationship

k: and my expectations are so high

j: not so bad....; I think your expectations are no higher than a str8 person looking for a healthy relationship

k: really?

j: sure; it's just harder to find someone like that in the gay world, I believe, because gay society is so "meat market" oriented IMHO

k: i hope i dont end up like that; i want a L O V E R, to share my life

j: what you think about is what you become, don't you think? Immerse yourself in the typical gay thought patterns, and you end up like "them." Immerse your mind in the company of people with like-values, and you remain "true" to yourself

k: Yesterday, i had a long night at dinner with W who I write about on my blog; He said i was BRAVE but CRAZY to go to B_______ sauna in Bkk

j: really?

k: he said, about the possibility of gettting raped, etc etc

j: oh...think that's a danger/problem in a place like that?

k: and also what happens if there is a police raid

j: I thought it was fairly safe that a guy could have some kind of immediate recourse if things went too far; (push a panic button, yell for staff, etc.)

k: anyway, B_______ Sauna is the past; i am back to conservative Kuala Lumpur

j: right

k: and would u believe it, they have it here too; but then, i am NOT GOING

j: well, it was a "learning experience"

k: yeah

j: maybe your purpose in life is to warn others

k: enough of experimentation

j: back to finding real LOVE

k: yeah....

___________________________________________________________

Issues raised:

1. Are gay saunas, bottom line, simply disease-breeding establishments?

2. Do you know anywone who has found real "love" in places of this nature?

3. What about police raids? Can they ruin a person? Their reputation? Future?

[Ijustwannateach]

Um, without really addressing the larger issues, some smaller points:

1. The chance of transmitting HIV through saliva-saliva contacts is small enough that it cannot really be statistically detected. It is theoretically possible, but there are next to zero confirmed cases and at the usual viral loads carried by saliva and considering the viral load necessary for infection through an oral vector (if one is not bleeding out the gums) it would take BUCKETS (literally) of the stuff. Kissing belongs in the same urban-legend zone as toilet seats as far as possible vectors of HIV.

2. One of my best friends met his current long-term (3 years so far) partner at a sauna.

3. Police raids only ruin people who are already weak, which most means some of the Thais. Farang are regarded as tourists who are basically immune. If you're on drugs, that might be a bad situation to be caught in (since the excuse for the "moral order" raids is drugs, as sex between consenting adults is not yet illegal even here).

[Ijustwannateach]

Bad Connection - Jinx.

Edited July 23, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[Ijustwannateach]

Ok, now some larger issues... I'm not entirely sure, but I detect a certain... lack of appreciation for the saunas in your last post, TT. Fair enough. I'm not fond of them myself, and though I have visited them I've never had sex in them- I'm too private a person.

However, I think it is hypocritical to characterise them as "breeding grounds" for disease. It's as if you were saying that without them, there would be no spread of disease. People had random, anonymous, dirty, everyday, casual sex with strangers long before there were such places as saunas, and they will continue to do so as long as there are people. There will always be persons who are less comfortable with that, who will remain free not to do so. But a lot of people will still be doing so, and that is why AIDS continues to spread, um, gleefully through every part of even the most conservative countries in the world. In a sense, this kind of hypocrisy about sex is one of HIV's best allies: "it's *open* sex that spreads HIV, and of course the rest of us don't go to places like that...." Japan's Ministry of Health cited a few years ago among its top 5 concerns over the spread of HIV in Japan, "the myth of marital fidelity in Japan."

In a sense, the HIV plague is slowly destroying the luxury of sexual hypocrisy, and most societies that survive it will never be the same socially or sexually again. It's true that abstinence or absolute fidelity are means towards safety, but the real message of the patterns of HIV seems to be that as a species, we just don't do things that way. Looking to our closest relatives among the apes, the bonobo chimps are the most blatantly sexually active and promiscuous of all the primates (except for us?!?). It might be nice to think that we all could live in romantic, dedicated couplehood forever, but what HIV spreading says is that we don't. We could wring our hands and cry about the death of romanticism, or we could learn to celebrate a new eroticism with our eyes wide open about who we are.

In any case, getting slowly back to the question, I don't think that most persons would find your low sex, one-on-one, super-intense-relations-with-one-partner system the way things really go for them. Perhaps some of them would feel horrified at the prospect. Sex is very important for some people, and it remains a need in many distinct from love- affairs are rampant. I don't deny that your way is best for you and many others, but I doubt your implication that your way is best for everyone. Saunas have their place, and their risk level, and consenting adults will do what consenting adults do, there or elsewhere. Perhaps they even perform a valuable service in providing the option for easy, anonymous relief without emotional involvement- something some persons may need- not want, but need- even in a dedicated relationship.

"Steven"

[toptuan]

We could wring our hands and cry about the death of romanticism, or we could learn to celebrate a new eroticism with our eyes wide open about who we are.

Dude, the only ones wringing their hands are those the Dr. just informed of HIV infection.

Smoothest golden-tongued (golden keyboard?) rationale I've ever read for promiscuity.

Butterflies or doves. To each their own.

But call it what it is.

Edited July 24, 2006 by toptuan

[PeaceBlondie]

Speaking of differing opinions about sexual behavior in Thailand: the largely straight posters on ThaiVisa.com forums are up to around page 20 now, on a topic regarding whether a farang who manages a takeaway girlybar is a pimp, merely because he collects barfines.

In case nobody noticed, we've just been through a sexual revolution that started about the time Queen Victoria died. Dr. Kinsey's famous report on the (promiscuous) behavior of American men was mostly based on men born between 1880 and 1920. Thailand has gone through its sexual revolution in less than a generation, and the young men of Thailand today are far more "free" than their fathers and uncles were.

Hey, how about a separate thread about chastity, celibacy, monogamy, moderate promiscuity, and full-strength promiscuity?

[toptuan]

Hey, how about a separate thread about chastity, celibacy, monogamy, moderate promiscuity, and full-strength promiscuity?

Think we'd get any action?

[Redford]

Ok, now some larger issues... I'm not entirely sure, but I detect a certain... lack of appreciation for the saunas in your last post, TT. Fair enough. I'm not fond of them myself, and though I have visited them I've never had sex in them- I'm too private a person.

However, I think it is hypocritical to characterise them as "breeding grounds" for disease. It's as if you were saying that without them, there would be no spread of disease. People had random, anonymous, dirty, everyday, casual sex with strangers long before there were such places as saunas, and they will continue to do so as long as there are people.

"Steven"

Just for information of the general population.

A 2005 study of the MSM community in three major Thai cities found that HIV prevalence has grown dramatically in the past few years . The survey by Fritz van Griensen reports that the infection rate among MSM in Bangkok increased from 17.3 percent in 2003 to 28.3 percent in 2005. The study also reports that infection rate in Sauna was at 38%.

Makes you think twice, well actually made me think twice and a half (~40%) about going to a sauna.

I am going through the data I collected. And though the sample is small, some interesting behaviour comes up, such as foreign resident caring less about safe sex than Asian. All of this would need confiramtion with a larger study.

I'll post when I am finish with this.

Best

~R

[Ijustwannateach]

That's very interesting- you're saying that gay men in Bangkok are 10% more infected than the average population of Botswana (the most HIV-prevalent country in the world) and gay men who frequent saunas have an infection rate over double the incidental rate in Botswana?

http://www.afrol.com/articles/15067

The findings of the 2004 Botswana AIDS Impact Survey, which according to the government is "by far the most comprehensive of its kind," were reported to the public last week. The survey confirmed that Botswana's overall HIV prevalence rate now stands at 17.3 percent, in line with earlier government assessments.

I sincerely doubt it. I have seen this survey come up many times, and it seems so outrageously wrong I can only conclude it is deeply, deeply flawed- probably from small sample size, language mistakes during survey administration, and a very skewed sampling (for example, testing mainly in red light areas or adult recreational zones).

If this proportion of the population were infected, I certainly would have noticed it by now. I do know PWA in Thailand, but nowhere near the incidence levels that would explain the figures in your quoted survey.

"Steven"

P.S. After examining the survey you linked to above, my suspicions were confirmed. The author only did his surveying in dodgy parts of town, most likely testing a large percentage of sex workers rather than the general gay population (there is a difference, thank god). I hate it when scare tactics like this are used to cast a false shadow on the health of the gay population. It's likely the straight population is the one where the HIV problem is growing the fastest.

However, I admit that saunas probably do raise the risk.

Edited July 27, 2006 by Ijustwannateach

[PeaceBlondie]

Redford, are you saying that after you finish analyzing this little survey or questionnaire you prepared and administered, you'll publish statistically accurate results? You have a master's degree in statistics, right? Your sample size was ample, right? The angle of incidence didn't dangle?

Pardon my presumption, but at least you referred us to a survey whose main researcher had a doctorate and an MPH. And youuuu?

[jdinasia]

PB ... you read the first "survey" he ran? oi ..... Nothing scientific to this. The guy is wanting to sell advertising to Saunas and just dressing it up.

having taken a friend out to 2 of them last night .... I think it's kinda silly

[Redford]

That's very interesting- you're saying that gay men in Bangkok are 10% more infected than the average population of Botswana (the most HIV-prevalent country in the world) and gay men who frequent saunas have an infection rate over double the incidental rate in Botswana?

http://www.afrol.com/articles/15067

The findings of the 2004 Botswana AIDS Impact Survey, which according to the government is "by far the most comprehensive of its kind," were reported to the public last week. The survey confirmed that Botswana's overall HIV prevalence rate now stands at 17.3 percent, in line with earlier government assessments.

I sincerely doubt it. I have seen this survey come up many times, and it seems so outrageously wrong I can only conclude it is deeply, deeply flawed- probably from small sample size, language mistakes during survey administration, and a very skewed sampling (for example, testing mainly in red light areas or adult recreational zones).

If this proportion of the population were infected, I certainly would have noticed it by now. I do know PWA in Thailand, but nowhere near the incidence levels that would explain the figures in your quoted survey.

"Steven"

P.S. After examining the survey you linked to above, my suspicions were confirmed. The author only did his surveying in dodgy parts of town, most likely testing a large percentage of sex workers rather than the general gay population (there is a difference, thank god). I hate it when scare tactics like this are used to cast a false shadow on the health of the gay population. It's likely the straight population is the one where the HIV problem is growing the fastest.

However, I admit that saunas probably do raise the risk.

Steven

I am merely reporting what the survey by van Griensven found. His survey is indeed biased if you consider that only "dodgy" part of town were sampled. But there is another way to look at it which is that he investigated a particular group in the population. As I said before, people moved arround and the one you found in the "dodgy area" will be found elsewhere too.

The van griensven survey was collaboration betwen the Thailand MOPH – U.S. CDC Collaboration. I don't think there is any intention to scare people. The sample was small but representative of the population he wanted to study. This has to be kept in mind when considering the results.

Regards

~R

[Redford]

Redford, are you saying that after you finish analyzing this little survey or questionnaire you prepared and administered, you'll publish statistically accurate results? You have a master's degree in statistics, right? Your sample size was ample, right? The angle of incidence didn't dangle?

Pardon my presumption, but at least you referred us to a survey whose main researcher had a doctorate and an MPH. And youuuu?

I would not dare doing stats on a sample of 54, though this is not bad for a pilot which main purpose was to help doing a bigger survey, and considering that at peak time there is between 200-300 people chatting on the websites where the survey was advertised. That should re-assure you on my ability and knowledge to do stats. And since we are getting personal, yes I do have a PhD, but I am not here to promote myself.

Honestly I don't thing there is any need to advertised Saunas in Bangkok, and if it was the case there would be much clever and efficient ways to do it than with a scam-survey on an expat's forum. I find that truly amazing how some can be so cynical and dismissive of other's work. But I am really not interested in discussing this. Those not interested don't have to contribute.

Regards

~R

[Redford]

That's very interesting- you're saying that gay men in Bangkok are 10% more infected than the average population of Botswana (the most HIV-prevalent country in the world) and gay men who frequent saunas have an infection rate over double the incidental rate in Botswana?

"Steven"

P.S. After examining the survey you linked to above, my suspicions were confirmed. The author only did his surveying in dodgy parts of town, most likely testing a large percentage of sex workers rather than the general gay population (there is a difference, thank god). I hate it when scare tactics like this are used to cast a false shadow on the health of the gay population. It's likely the straight population is the one where the HIV problem is growing the fastest.

However, I admit that saunas probably do raise the risk.

Hi again,

Funny enough, I just had an email from the author of the survey and the figure for HIV prevalence amongst men in Sauna is 31.9%, not 38%. Some venue have been reclassified and results will be published tomorrow in the CDC's Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Report (MMWR August 11 2006). You can find the reference tomorrow at www.cdc.gov.

Something I forgot to add to your PS: The government has been very good to deal with HIV/AIDS in the straight population but for various reasons (social & cultural), it has neglected/ignored the epidemics in the MSM community. It is now emmerging. The straight population is at risk but it would be difficult to say if it is more at risk than the MSM or who is more at risk... migrant workers, sex-workers, displaced people, citizen lambda...

Regards

~R