Immigration Confirms The End Of Border Runs From Oct 1, 2006

[Laulen]

There's nothing like a Visa press report to get everyone on to Forum!

Currently there are 346 users including 257 guests reading this post!

I wonder who the 1 Anonymous User is; Thai Immigration Department?

[steveromagnino]

Where are you getting your figures from? You have already stated that you deal with only the high end tourist market, how this qualifies you to come up with facts and figures with regard to the affected group, is beyond me.

Yep, I have no dealing with this group at all; but we can do some basic analysis if we lay out a framework.

Since there is at most going to be 15m tourists (the TAT WISHES!) next year, we can estimate that 1% of 15m = 150,000 people.

So...if this is such a big deal, then I am going to aritrarily decide that 1% of tourism is a big deal; less than that is not a big deal. A personal decision I know, but I took a poll of myself on it, and there was 100% consent.

I know I know, it could have been biased, so I took a recount, and came up with the same result.

So... if it affects more than 150,000 people it is a big deal. My own guess is that you aren't going to have 150,000 ppl in that group.

Of total first quarter arrivals, Asians made up around 50% of that group. Japanese, Koreans and Chinese on tour packages (e.g. Koreans are almost 80% coming on group tours) are not affected by this for the most part. That said, there are Asian longstays, but as I have repeatedly tried to make clear; the people who have the financial capacity to longstay have no problem getting a different type of visa, one would hope.

This is DIRECTLY FROM THE TAT:

According to Tourism Authority of Thailand statistics, in 2004, a total of 568,620 visitors stayed in Thailand for more than 30 days. This was up by 7.15% from 2003 and comprised 4.88% of total visitor arrivals.

The top five markets for longstay were Japan (73,882 or 8.4% increase), UK (62,364 or 6.47% increase), the US (44,498 or 9.82% increase), Germany (39,151 or 1.30% increase), and China (33,337 or 18.33% increase). Another major market is Sweden (17,304 or 7.99% increase).

According to the TAT analysis, the following trends were apparent:

58.29% or 331,440 of longstay visitors remained in Thailand for 1-2 months. They were mainly from the UK, Japan, Germany and the US. 19.08% or 108,487 stayed for 2-3 months, mainly from Japan, the UK, the US and Germany.

7.04% or 40,038 stayed for 3-4 months, mainly from Japan, the UK, China and the US.

1.9% or 11,128 stayed for 10 months to one year, mainly from Japan, India, China and the US.

2.51% or 14,285 stayed for over one year, mainly from India, China, Japan and the US.

i.e. the TOTAL number of people in 2004 staying longer than 3 months was about 65,000 people based on the arrival/departure documentation. AFAIK they count it by passport, not by arrival/departure card, so people doing visa runners will get counted in that group. I could be wrong on that though.

I suppose that visa runners might be counted in the other group, if that is the case then no one short of an insider with access to Dep Imm data could give us what the answer is.

So... 65,000 people in 2004, and some of these won't be coming in on visa on arrivals either, so actually the real number is lower again. So therefore, by my own criteria, not a big deal. If you want to set your own criteria or rules and persent something then be my guest. I'll listen, I am interested. But i just don't see however I look at it that OVERALL this is going to have a major impact on tourism (6% of GDP) or the country even though isolated areas within the economy may be affected adversely; which legal ones I honestly don't know and cannot think of.

BTW I do have clients in the lower end of the market e.g. a large hyper market; however I doubt they could care less about this issue as their target is Thai, not foreigner and therefore tourists are a non issue for them so I cannot comment on the impact there.

Edited September 11, 2006 by steveromagnino

[visarunner]

Like many people reading this, my passport is almost full of visa stamps/Laos/Cambodia visa runs etc. etc. Perhaps when I return to the U.K. next month (for 1 week); I will be bumped off my return flight to the L.O.S. by some jobsworth Emirates check-in staff (who does not understand the rules).

This is worrying.

Also wondering how they want to controll , expect long lines at the airport and elsewhere .

[Mobi]

I would consider the source of this report as not reliable.

Well it's on Page 3 of yesterday's Bangkok Post, and makes direct quotes from Immigration police Bureau Commissioner Suwat Tomrongsiskul, and Head of Pattaya Immigration, Pol Col Ittipol Ittisarnronnachai.

On what basis do you surmise that the report is not reliable?

Could not link to BKK Post articleas link is dead.

And the topic refer to forbes.com.

OK the topic might refer to Forbes, but I have the Post story in print sitting right next to me. There is a huge headline:

VISA RULES WILL BE TIGHTENED TO STOP ABUSE.

There has been no retraction in today's edition so I can only assume these policemen really said what the Post said that they said.

I don't think the Bangkok Post is in the habit of inventing major stories.

That's not to say that the immigration dept might not have second thoughts - but don't hold your breath.

I've just tried the net and the story is there - no probs. Here's the link:-

http://www.bangkokpost.com/100906_News/10Sep2006_news04.php

[jbsears]

It seems fair to me as long as they allow continous tourist visas. Thailand is losing a lot of opportunity to make money with these visa on arrivals. Now people will have to leave for a couple days and pay the 2000 baht or so for a real tourist visa. With visa runs only the other country charges for its visa but Thailand charges nothing.

I think a lot of people have it nice here that don't have a non-immigrant visa and shouldn't mind giving a little back to the government in the form of visa fees.

Just my thoughts.

[Eureka]

It'll be against the law to chew gum next! I am offshore working outside of Thailand going home (Thailand) 6th of Oct. I have 3 30 day chops in my passport already. A wife and 3 kids waiting for me to come home. All my documents for applying for a visa are at my home in LOS. This is going to be real convenient. What a load of ****!!! Maybe I'll just pack up the wifey and kids and go back to Falangland. I wish they would have done this in the springtime.

I'm ready to beam you up and out. You have a THAI wife and kids? If that is so, then why didn't you just do the 1 year extension to a proper non-immigrant visa for supporting your wife and kids?

If you are outside the country, get off your lazy ass and visit a Thai Embassy to get the proper visa.

Jesus.

"Lazy Ass" Did you not read the part about WORKING!!! I would and have done several times. Some of us lazy asses are to busy working and and raising our children to run off and get visa's. Especially when you have the option to get a tourist visa. Thanks for your insightfull and helpfull coment though.

Heard of mail? Fedex? No excuse - go visit an embassy or send your passport to one.

Have you not got better things to do then antagonise people who are trying to work through a crisis

Sorry but I have to agree that you have no excuses for not having your paperwork in order.

If you are legally married to a Thai and registered as the father of the child(ren) then you can apply for a one year visa with little drama.

Have your wife contact Immigration (while you as away) to obtain the details and you should be able to sort the problem without too much hassle.

[VanZam]

Where are you getting your figures from? You have already stated that you deal with only the high end tourist market, how this qualifies you to come up with facts and figures with regard to the affected group, is beyond me.

Yep, I have no dealing with this group at all; but we can do some basic analysis if we lay out a framework.

Since there is at most going to be 15m tourists (the TAT WISHES!) next year, we can estimate that 1% of 15m = 150,000 people.

So...if this is such a big deal, then I am going to aritrarily decide that 1% of tourism is a big deal; less than that is not a big deal. A personal decision I know, but I took a poll of myself on it, and there was 100% consent.

..........

It's impossible to say for certain how many are affected, and what immigration sees as "spending more than 30 days" in Thailand. This could be a count of non-immigrant visas/tourist visas for all we know. You have to admit that Thailand doesn't really have the best reputation for data gathering, and I can only make assumptions based on observation.

If it were a tiny and insignificant 1%, then IMHO, immigration wouldn't have bothered.

I guess the only real test will be time.

[~G~]

So... 65,000 people in 2004, and some of these won't be coming in on visa on arrivals either, so actually the real number is lower again. So therefore, by my own criteria, not a big deal.

Probably no major impact on Thailand's income from tourism, but can be a major impact on other areas, even from the Thai perpective.

Take the fact that most foreign teachers in Thailand are working illegally. I assume most of them are doing the monthly visa runs.

What will that do to English Teaching in Thailand?

[John K]

So... 65,000 people in 2004, and some of these won't be coming in on visa on arrivals either, so actually the real number is lower again. So therefore, by my own criteria, not a big deal.

Probably no major impact on Thailand's income from tourism, but can be a major impact on other areas, even from the Thai perpective.

Take the fact that most foreign teachers in Thailand are working illegally. I assume most of them are doing the monthly visa runs.

What will that do to English Teaching in Thailand?

Much higher wages!!!!

[VanZam]

Steve, In the interests of providing non-biased data I will be conducting a survey on KSR this evening after the bars close.

This should yeild some interesting figures to add to your collection

[bkkbaz]

So... 65,000 people in 2004, and some of these won't be coming in on visa on arrivals either, so actually the real number is lower again. So therefore, by my own criteria, not a big deal.

Probably no major impact on Thailand's income from tourism, but can be a major impact on other areas, even from the Thai perpective.

Take the fact that most foreign teachers in Thailand are working illegally. I assume most of them are doing the monthly visa runs.

What will that do to English Teaching in Thailand?

Based on people I've met here, I'd guess that at least 50-60% of English teachers are working without work permits - it's not necessarily their fault, the schools can take months or years to sort it out, as they have no motivation to do so (it's not the Thai employers who will be facing deportation!).

If these teachers disappear, then it comes down to supply and demand. Will we be seeing B100k/month salaries offered for English teaching jobs in the near future? If the few legit teachers remaining demand it, we might...

[~G~]

So... 65,000 people in 2004, and some of these won't be coming in on visa on arrivals either, so actually the real number is lower again. So therefore, by my own criteria, not a big deal.

Probably no major impact on Thailand's income from tourism, but can be a major impact on other areas, even from the Thai perpective.

Take the fact that most foreign teachers in Thailand are working illegally. I assume most of them are doing the monthly visa runs.

What will that do to English Teaching in Thailand?

Much higher wages!!!!

I assume you are joking? I was thinking more in the line of: fewer foreign teachers -> more Thais -> lower English teaching level (yes, even lower than now...)

[jingjoe]

Edit: Why do people think people who are truly holidaying in Thailand will care that the holiday visa rules have been tightened? The only people who are totally against it are people who are living and working in Thailand illegally by doing visa runs.

Other people who travel frequently in and out of thailand for business and trade - are the ones with genuine concerns over it.

I would guess-timate that about 10% of tourists visiting Thailand do as I do.

Bangkok is our BASE, which leaves another 10 Countries within easy reach there to be discovered.

My regular annual visits to Thailand are for around 30 days, within which time I will (without fail) travel to 3 or more of the 10 surrounding Countries.

Reading between the lines, I will now only be allowed to visit 2 neighbouring countries before losing my privilage of returning to Thailand, even within a 30 day period.

It feels like I'm being compelled to spend more time in Thailand at the expense of the long weekend in Singapore, or the midweek side-trip to Hong Kong.

Hopefully (purely in the interests of we 10%), the rules will be fine-tuned to allow multiple-multiple entries, within that 90 day maximum period they've highlighted.

[~G~]

If these teachers disappear, then it comes down to supply and demand. Will we be seeing B100k/month salaries offered for English teaching jobs in the near future? If the few legit teachers remaining demand it, we might...

Those that are employed illegaly are not employed by places that can pay those salaries. They will be replaced by Thais is my guess.

EDIT: Anyone that knows this field better is welcome to correct me if it doesn't make sense.

Edited September 11, 2006 by ~G~

[jbsears]

So... 65,000 people in 2004, and some of these won't be coming in on visa on arrivals either, so actually the real number is lower again. So therefore, by my own criteria, not a big deal.

Probably no major impact on Thailand's income from tourism, but can be a major impact on other areas, even from the Thai perpective.

Take the fact that most foreign teachers in Thailand are working illegally. I assume most of them are doing the monthly visa runs.

What will that do to English Teaching in Thailand?

Much higher wages!!!!

I assume you are joking? I was thinking more in the line of: fewer foreign teachers -> more Thais -> lower English teaching level (yes, even lower than now...)

basic economics, wages will rise. the overall level may decrease if schools refuse to pay the higher wages, but then with the less supply of foreign teachers, the rich thais will pay a steap price to have their kids taught by the remaining native english speakers. Good for the native speakers, bad for Thailand.

[cclub75]

If these teachers disappear, then it comes down to supply and demand. Will we be seeing B100k/month salaries offered for English teaching jobs in the near future? If the few legit teachers remaining demand it, we might...

Not at all.

Who really cares in thailand about the quality of english teaching ?

The kids from rich family and the elite will always go to good school, and especially abroad, when it to comes to really learn english.

As for the "rest"... well... better for them to learn chinese. The thai gvt is pushing that way. Because they know that the fate of the country is to become a colony of China.

English language ? I remind you that during 18e century, french was the linga franca, spoken by many people around the world. What about now ? Things are changing...

[phuketrichard]

they will juts add a line at the airport immigration for VOA like most other countries already have.

Then these lines will be a killer so all will avoid them at all costs.

Can u imagine an overworked/underpaid civil servent counting your 30 day visas and adding/subtracting before they tell ya NO, go back..

fo anyone still doing the 30 day turnarounds,

go to a lwayer, pay 35,000 or less and from a company, then apply for your type "B" visa whoch you will get as CEO, ( no need for work permit) all you need do is pay your tax each year and you'll never have to worry OR

Just stay and wait till they kick ya out, LOL

[bkkbaz]

If these teachers disappear, then it comes down to supply and demand. Will we be seeing B100k/month salaries offered for English teaching jobs in the near future? If the few legit teachers remaining demand it, we might...

Those that are employed illegaly are not employed by places that can pay those salaries. They will be replaced by Thais is my guess.

EDIT: Anyone that knows this field better is welcome to correct me if it doesn't make sense.

Quite possibly. But many teaching jobs are advertised with a promise of a work permit. Then, because of bureacracy/laziness/etc, it either takes months or years for this to be issued, or sometimes it never materialises. It's not necessarily a financial issue.

And if there are more teaching vacancies than native English speakers, then the employers who really want to hire native speakers will have to offer better salaries. Like I said, supply and demand.

On the other hand, TIT so who knows!

[biggle]

I know of many Thai's in my own country working illegally , when i go home i will be reporting the lot of them to immigration.

[george]

Update - Confirmation:

I spoke with one of the top bosses at Immigration HQ in Bangkok 5 minutes ago. All the info mentioned in the Forbes article quoted in post #1 of this thread is 100% correct and confirmed.

The Thai Immigration Bureau are distrubuting info to all border posts while we speak. I can confirm that this will happen, starting October 1, 2006. The rules are old, but not enforced until now.

Be prepaired to apply for a Tourist- or Non-Immigrant visa instead of doing border hopping totalling more than 90 days in a row.

More info as I have it. Maybe Sunbelt have additional info?

[~G~]

basic economics, wages will rise. the overall level may decrease if schools refuse to pay the higher wages, but then with the less supply of foreign teachers, the rich thais will pay a steap price to have their kids taught by the remaining native english speakers. Good for the native speakers, bad for Thailand.

Basic Economics takes into consideration the rigidity of the Demand - when the price rises, how many people will still pay, how many will switch to alternatives.

I am talking about the vast majority of schools, not about those targetting rich families, or international schools. I assume most of those supply work permits to the teachers anyway.

[jbsears]

Be prepaired to apply for a Tourist- or Non-Immigrant visa instead of doing border hopping totalling more than 90 days in a row.

Seems to me as if they just want everybody to have to pay for their visas. As long as one get a tourist or non-immigrant visa, one should be fine. It also allows for them to check the applicants out before giving them a visa since the applicant has to wait 24 hours. Really, doesn't seem too bad.

[creation2474]

Update - Confirmation:

I spoke with one of the top bosses at Immigration HQ in Bangkok 5 minutes ago. All the info mentioned in the Forbes article quoted in post #1 of this thread is 100% correct and confirmed.

The Thai Immigration Bureau are distrubuting info to all border posts while we speak. I can confirm that this will happen, starting October 1, 2006. The rules are old, but not enforced until now.

Be prepaired to apply for a Tourist- or Non-Immigrant visa instead of doing border hopping totalling more than 90 days in a row.

More info as I have it. Maybe Sunbelt have additional info?

It sounds like that the problem can just be solved by replacing the ongoing 30 day visa run (border run) with, in infinity, 2 months tourist visa. I am still not clear about this. Is it so?

[VanZam]

Be prepaired to apply for a Tourist- or Non-Immigrant visa instead of doing border hopping totalling more than 90 days in a row.

So all one has to do is head off to Lao every three months for a new tourist visa, this option costs almost exactly the same as border runs.

It does leave the question as to what the real motives were behind this, as the option for illegal workers is still exactly the same.

Oh thats right... elections coming up...

[jbsears]

basic economics, wages will rise. the overall level may decrease if schools refuse to pay the higher wages, but then with the less supply of foreign teachers, the rich thais will pay a steap price to have their kids taught by the remaining native english speakers. Good for the native speakers, bad for Thailand.

Basic Economics takes into consideration the rigidity of the Demand - when the price rises, how many people will still pay, how many will switch to alternatives.

I am talking about the vast majority of schools, not about those targetting rich families, or international schools. I assume most of those supply work permits to the teachers anyway.

Not really, I've worked for schools paying top baht. One gives me 1000 baht an hour and another 600, but neither gives a work permit unless the employee is a full-time employee. Which neither is ideal, one has bad hours and the other the pay is better per hour if just part-time.

I said basic economics. you are adding a lot of assumptions. and with any basic economic model , assumptions just complicate it. but you are right about the vast majority of schools, they will be hurt. But i don't see that as our problem. there are two sides. the schools and governments side looking out for the kids education through hiring and the teachers side of making sure they have money to support themselves and their families.

Anyways, there are good and bad things. Should all work out as long as the non permit people get tourist visas instead. hopefully, the schools will pay for the extra costs.

[fxm88]

Basic Economics takes into consideration the rigidity of the Demand - when the price rises, how many people will still pay, how many will switch to alternatives.

My two main reasons for staying in Thailand are:

1. it's cheap
   
2. it's convenient
   

Every day it seems to get less and less of both.

[MaiChai]

Wow 270 people reading this.

Once they realise it hurts where it matters (their wallets) it will be back to business as usual. I mean tourism has been badly hit recently with the politcal marches, world cup, etc. What else could they do to keep people away?

One thing I have notice about Bangkok. If tourism died it would really hit the all those businesses that rely on tourism. Just how many shops make business from tourists? Bangkok would be badly hit by a large drop in tourism. Trust me look around.

Edited September 11, 2006 by MaiChai

[beammeup]

It'll be against the law to chew gum next! I am offshore working outside of Thailand going home (Thailand) 6th of Oct. I have 3 30 day chops in my passport already. A wife and 3 kids waiting for me to come home. All my documents for applying for a visa are at my home in LOS. This is going to be real convenient. What a load of ****!!! Maybe I'll just pack up the wifey and kids and go back to Falangland. I wish they would have done this in the springtime.

I'm ready to beam you up and out. You have a THAI wife and kids? If that is so, then why didn't you just do the 1 year extension to a proper non-immigrant visa for supporting your wife and kids?

If you are outside the country, get off your lazy ass and visit a Thai Embassy to get the proper visa.

Jesus.

"Lazy Ass" Did you not read the part about WORKING!!! I would and have done several times. Some of us lazy asses are to busy working and and raising our children to run off and get visa's. Especially when you have the option to get a tourist visa. Thanks for your insightfull and helpfull coment though.

Heard of mail? Fedex? No excuse - go visit an embassy or send your passport to one.

Have you not got better things to do then antagonise people who are trying to work through a crisis

To me, it is sheer madness to be working illegally in another country, and have wife and kids in same, risking all for the sake of a little convenience. If your employer cannot or will not provide you with the correct documentation for visas, then you must form your own company, do your own visas and work permit etc. I spent my first months here working for a company that promised visa, work permit etc. and of course never came through. I will never again trust my own legal status with someone who has no investment in it. If I go to jail, they simply find a replacement for the foriegn "criminal" who used to work for them. No thanks. I'll buck up, pay my fees, file my taxes and be left alone please.

<deleted> are you talking about "working illegally"?? Offshore is international waters, there are no visa's for that!! I live in Thailand a month at a time 1 on 1 off. Up untill now it is perfectly legal to do this. One of the reasons I and hundreds or perhaps thousands of offshore oilworkers and Seamen of all nationalities also do this is because its convenient. I will now have to do the next most convenient thing which may be apply for a O visa or move to another country. Langkawi, Bali, Cape Town, who knows. I dont mind but it' may be difficult for the wife and kids. I use to love Thailand as it was one the most free countries in the world. This is just another nail in the coffin. It has lost a lot of its majic in the last 15years. The road ahead looks pretty grim.

Edited September 11, 2006 by Totster

[creation2474]

Well, doesn't anyone really know, whether it's possible to just replace the 30 day border run with a tourist visa, going on "forever"??

Any clear answers to this will be appreciated.

[johnwills]

Will it really effect tourism so badly? Most tourists I would have thought come for two or three weeks then go home, not everyone can have more than 5 weeks holiday a year. So it will really effect people who are staying here long term or backpacking, jumping in and out of Thailand as they move between different countries. Even so its easy enough to get a multi entry tourist visa isn't it? I always considered the monthly visa run to be a pain in the backside and wondered why people didn't just get the appropriate visa.