Thai Government Accuses Reds Over Huge Weapons Cache

[webfact]

Thai government accuses Reds over huge weapons cache

BANGKOK (AFP) -- Thailand's government on Saturday displayed to foreign diplomats a huge cache of weapons it said had been confiscated from anti-government protesters, to quash criticism of a deadly crackdown.

"Red Shirts" leaders, who mounted two months of rallies in Bangkok that saw clashes and blasts that left 86 dead and 1,900 injured movement, have criticised the use of force and said their supporters were unarmed.

The government said that after Wednesday's final offensive which forced thousands of Reds to disperse and their leaders to surrender, it had found a haul of assault rifles, ammunition, grenades and crude homemade bombs.

"Terrorists have used these weapons to attack officials and innocent people," said Suthep Thaugsuban, deputy prime minister in charge of security affairs, at an army barracks on the northern outskirts of the capital.

"Although the protesters have always denied terrorism or possessing weapons, after the rallies dispersed we found a lot of lethal weapons," he told media and dozens of Bangkok-based diplomats and military attaches.

Thailand's top forensic scientist, Porntip Rojanasunan, also said that four car bombs had been found around the protest site which paralysed Bangkok's top shopping district for six weeks.

AFP journalists reporting at the protest zone for the past two months have seen only a handful of firearms in the hands of protesters, who were mostly armed only with crude weapons like rockets and Molotov cocktails.

Wednesday's campaign was met with little resistance.

Concern has been growing over rights abuses in Thailand, with the European Union the latest to call on Thai authorities to respect the rights of the protesters and saying the violence had harmed the nation.

Human Rights Watch has also expressed alarm over a "draconian" emergency decree introduced during the crisis to hold prisoners in secret detention.

In a clear reference to the Reds' hero, ex-prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra, the army said that masterminds including those from outside the country were responsible for the mayhem of looting and arson that broke out after the offensive.

"It's not true that protesters carried out arson attacks due to anger after protest ended. It was well planned and ordered by people outside and inside the country," said army spokesman Colonel Sunsern Kaewkumnerd.

Thaksin was ousted in a 2006 coup and now lives in exile to avoid a jail sentence for corruption.

A curfew is in place until Sunday in Bangkok and most of the Reds' heartland in the north and northeast. Suthep said there would be an announcement Sunday over the status of the emergency measures.

-- ©Copyright AFP 2010-05-22

Published with written approval from AFP.

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[SomTumTiger]

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

[webfact]

6 undetonated carbombs found at Rajprasong, meant to completely blow up the area

Head Forensic Department Dr Pornthip Rojanasunan disclosed that car bombs were found by security task force in 4 Rajprasong areas. The bombs were put together in a manner almost ready to detonate, she said. Government Spokesperson Dr Panithan Watanayakorn pointed out that they were meant to blow up Rajprasong area.

Earlier today, Dr Pornthip had found almost 1,000 suspected explosive materials scattered around Rajprasong. DNA cross matching is currently in progress.

-- Tan Network 2010-05-22

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

[bkkjames]

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

I am expecting AI to issue a retraction any moment now.

Perhaps the BB see will say something like "Thai authorities today unveiled a self inflicted weapons cache apparently"

From the Rivers run through here somewhere? comes "campared to afganistan, the weapons on display are small in comparsion to the army's".

[dttk0009]

Holy moly. looks like we have our very own Al-Quaeda. What's next, training camps? Suicide bombers? Truly scary.

[rubl]

6 undetonated carbombs found at Rajprasong, meant to completely blow up the area

Head Forensic Department Dr Pornthip Rojanasunan disclosed that car bombs were found by security task force in 4 Rajprasong areas. The bombs were put together in a manner almost ready to detonate, she said. Government Spokesperson Dr Panithan Watanayakorn pointed out that they were meant to blow up Rajprasong area.

Earlier today, Dr Pornthip had found almost 1,000 suspected explosive materials scattered around Rajprasong. DNA cross matching is currently in progress.

-- Tan Network 2010-05-22

[newsfooter][/newsfooter]

A revolution can only be succesful when you have martyrs. It seems some UDD/red-shirties thought their own supportes with women and children would do nicely.

Disgusting!

[yoshiwara]

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

Amnesty International are a total disgrace.

Trashing their reputation.

The last two years (and we are not just talking about Thailand here) have been an embarrassment.

[way2muchcoffee]

It'll be interesting to see final numbers on types of weapons found.

[momentumwaves]

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

[rogera]

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

The following are two excerpts form an article in the AsiaTimesonlone.com

Quote

Fog of war

The government has said it aims to separate ''terrorists'' from the ordinary protesters, while some red shirts have thanked the anonymous black-clad assailants for coming to their defense against state security forces. Therdpoum, a former member of parliament under Thaksin's original Thai Rak Thai party, says there has been obfuscation and propaganda on both sides of the conflict.

"The people who are the real planners, not the people up on stage making protest speeches, these people probably keep a very low profile, but they must calculate that aggression is vital," he said. "Aggression paralyzes and divides opponents. This is what we were taught, this is how a smaller force can defeat overwhelming power. The message was: divide and conquer."

Whether the UDD's shadowy armed wing consists of mafia thugs, unemployed irregulars or disaffected regular soldiers, they must be capable of ruthless and focused violence, he said.

Therdpoum, born in humble circumstances in northeastern Thailand, was a hotel union organizer who fled to the communist underground in 1975 to oppose a brutal right wing government. Many hundreds of the country's most energetic students and intellectuals did the same. Most, like Therdpoum, later renounced the ideology.

His five-year odyssey with the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT) included a three-month period in Hanoi in the heady period following the unification of Vietnam under communist rule. There, Therdpoum and a handful of hand-picked Thai activists, like prominent student leader Seksan Prasertkun, as well as current UDD leaders Weng Tochirakan and Jaran Dittapichai, were drilled in Maoist revolutionary theory.

The five tactics they learned for unseating a government included: divide your enemies; form a united front; use provocative violence; secure the loyalty of people inside the ruling regime; and, finally, win over the army.

"That is what we have seen. The government people have been quarrelling about what to do. Some senior figures have a divided loyalty. The army and the police cannot move. Provocative violence has been very successful," said Therdpoum, referring to the UDD's campaign to topple Abhisit's government.

"The tactic is to keep saying that you are a peace-loving people. The many factions folded into the united front [uDD] organization are not told what the real strategy is because they might not agree and they might not act their part convincingly," he added.

A generation ago, the eager young communists in Thailand's underground movement, many of whom now play major roles on Thailand's political stage, were told that propaganda should be blunt, simple and repeated incessantly to be effective. The UDD has similarly shunned hard policy debates in favor of simple credos of justice denied and the hypocrisy of elites.

"The red shirt people have been told over and over that greedy people in authority have denied them justice and their fair share. They have been pumped full of toy-town leftism and told to hate every institution that has held this country together. I worry that the bitterness and hatred produced by this propaganda now runs so deep it will cause tension and problems for a long time," Therdpoum said.

"Many of them are now absolutely convinced that Thaksin was the best leader in Thai history, that he was a kind and generous man who holds the solution to all their problems. They don't need a program - they just need a new Thai state with Thaksin in charge. It has become very emotional - as it was designed to be," he added.

Unquote

Quote

Ignorance over knowledge

Other observers believe that the anti-Thaksin, yellow-garbed People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) protest group that occupied Government House for several weeks and closed down Bangkok's airports for 10 days in 2008 helped to show the UDD how effective determined and prolonged protests could be. To be sure, there were violent moments during the PAD's many protests, launched first to remove Thaksin and later his proxy governments, but not to the extent of the current shadowy campaign of bombings and shootings.

The red shirts consist of many passive supporters, many active ones and, now, a hand-picked core of "professional revolutionaries" chosen for their loyalty and street smarts, according to Therdpoum. Behind them are many "deep secrets and hidden messages" that are revealed to only a privileged few in the movement, while an even smaller number know the entire strategy, he claimed.

"Old communists know that when it comes to revolution, ignorance is much more powerful than knowledge," Therdpoum said.

It is thus ironic that more former communists are currently on side with the royalist PAD than the supposedly pro-poor UDD, which is simultaneously striving to restore the billionaire Thaksin's wealth and power. So, too, is the fact that while the UDD has called with revolutionary zeal for a new political order, the Thaksin-aligned Puea Thai party that will contest the next elections is packed with old-style and corruption-tainted patronage politicians.

Therdpoum believes that the UDD's sincere left-wing members are using Thaksin and anticipate the opportunity to eventually dump his personal agenda in favor of the establishment of a more socialist society. Some of the former communists who took up arms and fled into the jungle in the 1970s and 1980s and were once in Thaksin's inner circle include Prommin Lertsuridej, Phumtham Wechayachai, Sutham Saengprathum, Phinit Jarusombat, Adisorn Piangket and Kriangkamon Laohapairot.

Its unclear how many of those former communists are now active from behind-the-scenes in the UDD's planning and strategy. Some media have recently published photographs of the UDD's three main stage leaders, Veera Musigapong, Natthawut Saikua and Jatuporn Prompan, with the exiled Thaksin in what appear to be planning sessions leading up to the current protests. It is debatable, however, how much real power they wield over broad strategy and tactics; Therdpoum, for one, discounts them as "showmen".

UDD organizer Jaran Dittapichai told this correspondent that the protest group had adopted "Mao Zedong's method of thinking" and some of his techniques, including the establishment of a united front. "I was a communist and several leaders were former communists ... but the red shirt people don't like communism or socialism. We use his principles to build up our front and to work with people who are not red shirts, but who are fighting for democracy like us."

He, like other UDD leaders, has consistently denied that the group is behind the mysterious bombing campaign that has coincided with its protest activities. "There is no third hand. There is only the first hand and the second hand ... the government side and our people," Jaran said.

"Before we started we discussed the [potential] problem of the third hand and who they might be. We were worried that someone might throw a bomb at us or shoot at us. We still have good luck - no one comes to throw a bomb [at us]."

Unquote

This says it all really. Thaksin was basically financing a communist-led revolution. Now we know why the red shirts chose red as their colour.

I think the news coming out now provides overwhelming evidence of a very serious communist plot to overthrow the monarchy and the state as it is today and to turn Thailand into a communist state. Thaksin and his baggage would probably have been dumped.

Given the mounting evidence, Thaksin and the red shirt leaders should deserve the death sentence for their actions. The probable outcome is very likely to be life sentences, given the current government's ideas on capital punishment.

Let the flames from pro-red contributors begin!!! Your responses will be seen for what they are. Given all the evidence to the contrary, they will seem to be defending the indefensible.

Edited May 22, 2010 by rogera

[SomTumTiger]

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Not used - the terrorists fired over 100 grenades the past 2 months. perhaps you have not been paying attention...

[hammered]

It just confirms what every keen observer knew. The reds were never a peaceful movement from their inception. But theyt finally became a very heavily armed and violent group

The red friendly blogs ran a campaign to label Amnesty International as a PAD front not so long ago. Kinda funny how this has panned out

[Bowery99]

It is very suspect that after a couple of days the government has a show for the press and other governments. Not having any press with them when they "found" this stuff (there were some willing I am sure) is just too much. The fact that a bunch of this stuff was all in the car park is also at best weird. I am not a red supporter but this smells bad. Why wasn't Pornthip w/her gt200 there when they let the people out of the temple?

I also have to think if ppl knew these things were there, they would have used them. Instead of just shooting firecrackers and bottle rockets. There were some using them yes, I understand that but when the sh*t was coming down they didn't hand stuff out or blow up the car bombs?

Edited May 22, 2010 by Bowery99

[bkk75]

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

You're right it does smell fishy.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=gdiQGgFndS4

After watching this video, I think the reds were put at gun point by the military to make little boys light the ..what do you call these things anyways?

Yes very fishy instead

/sarcasm

Edited May 22, 2010 by bkk75

[JetsetBkk]

"Terrorists have used these weapons to attack officials and innocent people," said Suthep Thaugsuban, deputy prime minister in charge of security affairs, at an army barracks on the northern outskirts of the capital.

AFP journalists reporting at the protest zone for the past two months have seen only a handful of firearms in the hands of protesters, who were mostly armed only with crude weapons like rockets and Molotov cocktails.

So who do you believe?

[hammered]

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Did you arrive yesterday. Theyhave been grenading and bombing and shooting for ages. Al Jazeera called em on it ages ago. There have been you tubes of their armed groups. Of course they used some. Luckily they were broken up before they couldf use more.

There really is no need to write blatant lies that have been shown to be demonstrably wrong on multiple occasions.

Now where is that piece on Amsterdam using internet to spread a meme for his clients

[philw]

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Not used - the terrorists fired over 100 grenades the past 2 months. perhaps you have not been paying attention...

Not exactly a lot of dead soldiers are there ??

Either the reds were lousy marksmen or most of them were not using firearms.

Which is it ??

April 10, approx 200 army injured, 600 civilians.

Who is doing most of the shooting ??

Presumably next will be the announcement of the red's intention to use portaloos as chemical weapons..................

ph

[SomTumTiger]

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Not used - the terrorists fired over 100 grenades the past 2 months. perhaps you have not been paying attention...

Not exactly a lot of dead soldiers are there ??

Either the reds were lousy marksmen or most of them were not using firearms.

Which is it ??

April 10, approx 200 army injured, 600 civilians.

Who is doing most of the shooting ??

Presumably next will be the announcement of the red's intention to use portaloos as chemical weapons..................

ph

Soldiers have body armor and kevlar helmets. Of course they didn't get injured as greatly. They wouldn't have need to be there at all, if they Reds weren't chucking grenades at everyone. Reds lousy marksman? Undoubtedly. Innocent? Not on your life.

[rubl]

It is very suspect that after a couple of days the government has a show for the press and other governments. Not having any press with them when they "found" this stuff (there were some willing I am sure) is just too much. The fact that a bunch of this stuff was all in the car park is also at best weird. I am not a red supporter but this smells bad. Why wasn't Pornthip w/her gt200 there when they let the people out of the temple?

I also have to think if ppl knew these things were there, they would have used them. Instead of just shooting firecrackers and bottle rockets.

[blind]

I have eyes, but cannot see.

[/blind]

[rogera]

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Please read my post above. The article quoted was from an independent Asean online newspaper and which quotes former members of Thaksin's regime. I would believe them rather than some farang who has just come out of the woodwork.

[Thai at Heart]

"Terrorists have used these weapons to attack officials and innocent people," said Suthep Thaugsuban, deputy prime minister in charge of security affairs, at an army barracks on the northern outskirts of the capital.

AFP journalists reporting at the protest zone for the past two months have seen only a handful of firearms in the hands of protesters, who were mostly armed only with crude weapons like rockets and Molotov cocktails.

So who do you believe?

Oh come on now. Give us a hard question.

This stuff was so hard to find it took them 3 days to get it out on the TV and the news? There have been hundreds of reporters around and around the site.

I don't care if the reds had them guns or not. But why can't the government raise it's credibility a little and call all the bloody journalists to come and see the guns in situ?

Edited May 22, 2010 by Thai at Heart

[hammered]

"Terrorists have used these weapons to attack officials and innocent people," said Suthep Thaugsuban, deputy prime minister in charge of security affairs, at an army barracks on the northern outskirts of the capital.

AFP journalists reporting at the protest zone for the past two months have seen only a handful of firearms in the hands of protesters, who were mostly armed only with crude weapons like rockets and Molotov cocktails.

So who do you believe?

In denial are we. Still think the facist group are peaceful or something. Of course they didnt wlak around with bazookas hanging off their noises especially when spreading a meme to journos (who they later declared a legitmate target for death) but the weapons were there and ready for use and you can see them using them on th enet if you can be bothered to look. Many links been done even here in th past.

I guess the new meme is going to come out of red HQ thast they were totally peaceful and they were set up and everyone killed by them and every arson done by them was only fakes...

But nobody believes that. Even old Pleum had to back away form his suggestions along that line and he is a red

[firestar]

It is very suspect that after a couple of days the government has a show for the press and other governments. Not having any press with them when they "found" this stuff (there were some willing I am sure) is just too much. The fact that a bunch of this stuff was all in the car park is also at best weird. I am not a red supporter but this smells bad. Why wasn't Pornthip w/her gt200 there when they let the people out of the temple?

I also have to think if ppl knew these things were there, they would have used them. Instead of just shooting firecrackers a bottle rockets.

No, if the government says it, it is absolute truth.

How dare you question it you Red shirt apologist, terrorist supporter...

I mean come on, anybody running a business here, or even who has been stopped by a traffic cop knows they never ever bend the truth for personal gain

And if it doesn't happen at the bottom why would it happen at the top

Edited May 22, 2010 by firestar

[kennalder]

I find it convenient that all these weapons of mass destruction were found.

Has anyone wondered why they were not used?

Smells a bit fishy.

Zackly!

[rubl]

Not exactly a lot of dead soldiers are there ??

Either the reds were lousy marksmen or most of them were not using firearms.

Which is it ??

April 10, approx 200 army injured, 600 civilians.

Who is doing most of the shooting ??

Presumably next will be the announcement of the red's intention to use portaloos as chemical weapons..................

ph

If the army could have moved in regardless of consequences, it would have been 1 -2 troops injured, protesters either dead or nearly so. In the 5 days cleanup of Rachaprasong 'only' 54 dead. Again a real crachdown would have fill mass-graves.

The fact that we lots of wounded troops and a few dead just symbolizes the restraint with which the army moved in.

[bipper]

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

Amnesty International are a total disgrace.

Trashing their reputation.

The last two years (and we are not just talking about Thailand here) have been an embarrassment.

This is a stupid comment.......The fact is there were innocent women and children at the protest site and Amnesty were completely correct to point this out. An embarrassment??? Maybe from the Ultra Right point of view. Another fact is AI are all the world has against the wealthy aggressor wheather that be Thaksin, The Thai Army, the US or the UK marching around the world in persuit of WMD/OIL and POWER. Please! People are not idiots.....

[iforget]

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

The following are two excerpts form an article in the AsiaTimesonlone.com

Quote

Fog of war

The government has said it aims to separate ''terrorists'' from the ordinary protesters, while some red shirts have thanked the anonymous black-clad assailants for coming to their defense against state security forces. Therdpoum, a former member of parliament under Thaksin's original Thai Rak Thai party, says there has been obfuscation and propaganda on both sides of the conflict.

"The people who are the real planners, not the people up on stage making protest speeches, these people probably keep a very low profile, but they must calculate that aggression is vital," he said. "Aggression paralyzes and divides opponents. This is what we were taught, this is how a smaller force can defeat overwhelming power. The message was: divide and conquer."

Whether the UDD's shadowy armed wing consists of mafia thugs, unemployed irregulars or disaffected regular soldiers, they must be capable of ruthless and focused violence, he said.

Therdpoum, born in humble circumstances in northeastern Thailand, was a hotel union organizer who fled to the communist underground in 1975 to oppose a brutal right wing government. Many hundreds of the country's most energetic students and intellectuals did the same. Most, like Therdpoum, later renounced the ideology.

His five-year odyssey with the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT) included a three-month period in Hanoi in the heady period following the unification of Vietnam under communist rule. There, Therdpoum and a handful of hand-picked Thai activists, like prominent student leader Seksan Prasertkun, as well as current UDD leaders Weng Tochirakan and Jaran Dittapichai, were drilled in Maoist revolutionary theory.

The five tactics they learned for unseating a government included: divide your enemies; form a united front; use provocative violence; secure the loyalty of people inside the ruling regime; and, finally, win over the army.

"That is what we have seen. The government people have been quarrelling about what to do. Some senior figures have a divided loyalty. The army and the police cannot move. Provocative violence has been very successful," said Therdpoum, referring to the UDD's campaign to topple Abhisit's government.

"The tactic is to keep saying that you are a peace-loving people. The many factions folded into the united front [uDD] organization are not told what the real strategy is because they might not agree and they might not act their part convincingly," he added.

A generation ago, the eager young communists in Thailand's underground movement, many of whom now play major roles on Thailand's political stage, were told that propaganda should be blunt, simple and repeated incessantly to be effective. The UDD has similarly shunned hard policy debates in favor of simple credos of justice denied and the hypocrisy of elites.

"The red shirt people have been told over and over that greedy people in authority have denied them justice and their fair share. They have been pumped full of toy-town leftism and told to hate every institution that has held this country together. I worry that the bitterness and hatred produced by this propaganda now runs so deep it will cause tension and problems for a long time," Therdpoum said.

"Many of them are now absolutely convinced that Thaksin was the best leader in Thai history, that he was a kind and generous man who holds the solution to all their problems. They don't need a program - they just need a new Thai state with Thaksin in charge. It has become very emotional - as it was designed to be," he added.

Unquote

Quote

Ignorance over knowledge

Other observers believe that the anti-Thaksin, yellow-garbed People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) protest group that occupied Government House for several weeks and closed down Bangkok's airports for 10 days in 2008 helped to show the UDD how effective determined and prolonged protests could be. To be sure, there were violent moments during the PAD's many protests, launched first to remove Thaksin and later his proxy governments, but not to the extent of the current shadowy campaign of bombings and shootings.

The red shirts consist of many passive supporters, many active ones and, now, a hand-picked core of "professional revolutionaries" chosen for their loyalty and street smarts, according to Therdpoum. Behind them are many "deep secrets and hidden messages" that are revealed to only a privileged few in the movement, while an even smaller number know the entire strategy, he claimed.

"Old communists know that when it comes to revolution, ignorance is much more powerful than knowledge," Therdpoum said.

It is thus ironic that more former communists are currently on side with the royalist PAD than the supposedly pro-poor UDD, which is simultaneously striving to restore the billionaire Thaksin's wealth and power. So, too, is the fact that while the UDD has called with revolutionary zeal for a new political order, the Thaksin-aligned Puea Thai party that will contest the next elections is packed with old-style and corruption-tainted patronage politicians.

Therdpoum believes that the UDD's sincere left-wing members are using Thaksin and anticipate the opportunity to eventually dump his personal agenda in favor of the establishment of a more socialist society. Some of the former communists who took up arms and fled into the jungle in the 1970s and 1980s and were once in Thaksin's inner circle include Prommin Lertsuridej, Phumtham Wechayachai, Sutham Saengprathum, Phinit Jarusombat, Adisorn Piangket and Kriangkamon Laohapairot.

Its unclear how many of those former communists are now active from behind-the-scenes in the UDD's planning and strategy. Some media have recently published photographs of the UDD's three main stage leaders, Veera Musigapong, Natthawut Saikua and Jatuporn Prompan, with the exiled Thaksin in what appear to be planning sessions leading up to the current protests. It is debatable, however, how much real power they wield over broad strategy and tactics; Therdpoum, for one, discounts them as "showmen".

UDD organizer Jaran Dittapichai told this correspondent that the protest group had adopted "Mao Zedong's method of thinking" and some of his techniques, including the establishment of a united front. "I was a communist and several leaders were former communists ... but the red shirt people don't like communism or socialism. We use his principles to build up our front and to work with people who are not red shirts, but who are fighting for democracy like us."

He, like other UDD leaders, has consistently denied that the group is behind the mysterious bombing campaign that has coincided with its protest activities. "There is no third hand. There is only the first hand and the second hand ... the government side and our people," Jaran said.

"Before we started we discussed the [potential] problem of the third hand and who they might be. We were worried that someone might throw a bomb at us or shoot at us. We still have good luck - no one comes to throw a bomb [at us]."

Unquote

This says it all really. Thaksin was basically financing a communist-led revolution. Now we know why the red shirts chose red as their colour.

I think the news coming out now provides overwhelming evidence of a very serious communist plot to overthrow the monarchy and the state as it is today and to turn Thailand into a communist state. Thaksin and his baggage would probably have been dumped.

Given the mounting evidence, Thaksin and the red shirt leaders should deserve the death sentence for their actions. The probable outcome is very likely to be life sentences, given the current government's ideas on capital punishment.

Let the flames from pro-red contributors begin!!! Your responses will be seen for what they are. Given all the evidence to the contrary, they will seem to be defending the indefensible.

Do tell us why you believe a single word of a publication founded by Sondhi Limtongul?

Edited May 22, 2010 by iforget

[hammered]

"Terrorists have used these weapons to attack officials and innocent people," said Suthep Thaugsuban, deputy prime minister in charge of security affairs, at an army barracks on the northern outskirts of the capital.

AFP journalists reporting at the protest zone for the past two months have seen only a handful of firearms in the hands of protesters, who were mostly armed only with crude weapons like rockets and Molotov cocktails.

So who do you believe?

Oh come on now. Give us a hard question.

This stuff was so hard to find it took them 3 days to get it out on the TV and the news? There have been hundreds of reporters around and around the site.

I don't care if the reds had them guns or not. But why can't the government raise it's credibility a little and call all the bloody journalists to come and see the guns in situ?

In case you havent noticed there are bombs around that area and one went off today. Do you really want more journos just so a few uber reds might believe the weapons were really there?

When some caches of weapons were found journos were present early on. Oh and even the BBC filmed the reds shooting. Add in Al Jazeera

It is truly sickening that some people are trying to present a violent group that has intimidated, nurdered and burnt as a peaceful hard done by protest group. Get over it they aint. Even if it shatters personally held biases. Even western media no longer present them as that. Apologising for a gorup that has this on its hands is vile.

And Im boit saying the government are wonderful but that is another matter. The rds had their cahnce to be apeaceful prtoest movement and opted for violence and murder. There is no going back from that

[rogera]

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

The following are two excerpts form an article in the AsiaTimesonlone.com

Quote

Fog of war

The government has said it aims to separate ''terrorists'' from the ordinary protesters, while some red shirts have thanked the anonymous black-clad assailants for coming to their defense against state security forces. Therdpoum, a former member of parliament under Thaksin's original Thai Rak Thai party, says there has been obfuscation and propaganda on both sides of the conflict.

"The people who are the real planners, not the people up on stage making protest speeches, these people probably keep a very low profile, but they must calculate that aggression is vital," he said. "Aggression paralyzes and divides opponents. This is what we were taught, this is how a smaller force can defeat overwhelming power. The message was: divide and conquer."

Whether the UDD's shadowy armed wing consists of mafia thugs, unemployed irregulars or disaffected regular soldiers, they must be capable of ruthless and focused violence, he said.

Therdpoum, born in humble circumstances in northeastern Thailand, was a hotel union organizer who fled to the communist underground in 1975 to oppose a brutal right wing government. Many hundreds of the country's most energetic students and intellectuals did the same. Most, like Therdpoum, later renounced the ideology.

His five-year odyssey with the Communist Party of Thailand (CPT) included a three-month period in Hanoi in the heady period following the unification of Vietnam under communist rule. There, Therdpoum and a handful of hand-picked Thai activists, like prominent student leader Seksan Prasertkun, as well as current UDD leaders Weng Tochirakan and Jaran Dittapichai, were drilled in Maoist revolutionary theory.

The five tactics they learned for unseating a government included: divide your enemies; form a united front; use provocative violence; secure the loyalty of people inside the ruling regime; and, finally, win over the army.

"That is what we have seen. The government people have been quarrelling about what to do. Some senior figures have a divided loyalty. The army and the police cannot move. Provocative violence has been very successful," said Therdpoum, referring to the UDD's campaign to topple Abhisit's government.

"The tactic is to keep saying that you are a peace-loving people. The many factions folded into the united front [uDD] organization are not told what the real strategy is because they might not agree and they might not act their part convincingly," he added.

A generation ago, the eager young communists in Thailand's underground movement, many of whom now play major roles on Thailand's political stage, were told that propaganda should be blunt, simple and repeated incessantly to be effective. The UDD has similarly shunned hard policy debates in favor of simple credos of justice denied and the hypocrisy of elites.

"The red shirt people have been told over and over that greedy people in authority have denied them justice and their fair share. They have been pumped full of toy-town leftism and told to hate every institution that has held this country together. I worry that the bitterness and hatred produced by this propaganda now runs so deep it will cause tension and problems for a long time," Therdpoum said.

"Many of them are now absolutely convinced that Thaksin was the best leader in Thai history, that he was a kind and generous man who holds the solution to all their problems. They don't need a program - they just need a new Thai state with Thaksin in charge. It has become very emotional - as it was designed to be," he added.

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Ignorance over knowledge

Other observers believe that the anti-Thaksin, yellow-garbed People's Alliance for Democracy (PAD) protest group that occupied Government House for several weeks and closed down Bangkok's airports for 10 days in 2008 helped to show the UDD how effective determined and prolonged protests could be. To be sure, there were violent moments during the PAD's many protests, launched first to remove Thaksin and later his proxy governments, but not to the extent of the current shadowy campaign of bombings and shootings.

The red shirts consist of many passive supporters, many active ones and, now, a hand-picked core of "professional revolutionaries" chosen for their loyalty and street smarts, according to Therdpoum. Behind them are many "deep secrets and hidden messages" that are revealed to only a privileged few in the movement, while an even smaller number know the entire strategy, he claimed.

"Old communists know that when it comes to revolution, ignorance is much more powerful than knowledge," Therdpoum said.

It is thus ironic that more former communists are currently on side with the royalist PAD than the supposedly pro-poor UDD, which is simultaneously striving to restore the billionaire Thaksin's wealth and power. So, too, is the fact that while the UDD has called with revolutionary zeal for a new political order, the Thaksin-aligned Puea Thai party that will contest the next elections is packed with old-style and corruption-tainted patronage politicians.

Therdpoum believes that the UDD's sincere left-wing members are using Thaksin and anticipate the opportunity to eventually dump his personal agenda in favor of the establishment of a more socialist society. Some of the former communists who took up arms and fled into the jungle in the 1970s and 1980s and were once in Thaksin's inner circle include Prommin Lertsuridej, Phumtham Wechayachai, Sutham Saengprathum, Phinit Jarusombat, Adisorn Piangket and Kriangkamon Laohapairot.

Its unclear how many of those former communists are now active from behind-the-scenes in the UDD's planning and strategy. Some media have recently published photographs of the UDD's three main stage leaders, Veera Musigapong, Natthawut Saikua and Jatuporn Prompan, with the exiled Thaksin in what appear to be planning sessions leading up to the current protests. It is debatable, however, how much real power they wield over broad strategy and tactics; Therdpoum, for one, discounts them as "showmen".

UDD organizer Jaran Dittapichai told this correspondent that the protest group had adopted "Mao Zedong's method of thinking" and some of his techniques, including the establishment of a united front. "I was a communist and several leaders were former communists ... but the red shirt people don't like communism or socialism. We use his principles to build up our front and to work with people who are not red shirts, but who are fighting for democracy like us."

He, like other UDD leaders, has consistently denied that the group is behind the mysterious bombing campaign that has coincided with its protest activities. "There is no third hand. There is only the first hand and the second hand ... the government side and our people," Jaran said.

"Before we started we discussed the [potential] problem of the third hand and who they might be. We were worried that someone might throw a bomb at us or shoot at us. We still have good luck - no one comes to throw a bomb [at us]."

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This says it all really. Thaksin was basically financing a communist-led revolution. Now we know why the red shirts chose red as their colour.

I think the news coming out now provides overwhelming evidence of a very serious communist plot to overthrow the monarchy and the state as it is today and to turn Thailand into a communist state. Thaksin and his baggage would probably have been dumped.

Given the mounting evidence, Thaksin and the red shirt leaders should deserve the death sentence for their actions. The probable outcome is very likely to be life sentences, given the current government's ideas on capital punishment.

Let the flames from pro-red contributors begin!!! Your responses will be seen for what they are. Given all the evidence to the contrary, they will seem to be defending the indefensible.

Do tell us why you believe a single word of a publications founded by Sondhi Limtongul?

It is interesting to note that none of the former Thaksin supported have come out to deny that they have made these statements. If a statement attributed to you is not true, would you not issue a denial?

That is what makes me believe it.

[rubl]

Unarmed Reds, Amnesty International decrying the treatment of the poor innocents - BS, pure BS. Armed militants who should be treated as enemy combatants, if shown to have participated in a violent way.

Amnesty International are a total disgrace.

Trashing their reputation.

The last two years (and we are not just talking about Thailand here) have been an embarrassment.

This is a stupid comment.......The fact is there were innocent women and children at the protest site and Amnesty were completely correct to point this out. An embarrassment??? Maybe from the Ultra Right point of view. Another fact is AI are all the world has against the wealthy aggressor wheather that be Thaksin, The Thai Army, the US or the UK marching around the world in persuit of WMD/OIL and POWER. Please! People are not idiots.....

Many of the red protesters believed their leaders, that venturing outside the camp would get them shot by troops. So they stayed. Some-one should translated some UDD leader speeches as broadcasted on PTV. AI would be embarrassed by it, for sure.