Uk Visas-the Future

[Rinrada]

Looks like its only a matter of time before your Thai spouse will need a degree in English before he/she will be even considered for a visitors Visa

New rules require an English ESOL certificate.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO APPLICANTS FOR NATURALISATION

On 28 July 2004, new regulations come into force, requiring all applicants for naturalisation, including those who are married to British citizens, (see page 4 of the enclosed guide) to have sufficient knowledge of the English language and to show that they meet this language requirement.

You must show that you meet this requirement in one of two ways. You can either:

 send a certificate showing that you have attained a qualification in “English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) skills for life Entry 3” approved by the Qualifications and Curriculum Authorityor

 send written confirmation from a person designated under the new regulations that you have an alternative qualification which shows that you can speak English to at least ESOL Entry 3 standard for the purpose of naturalisation.

An explanation of the new regulations and details of the persons who have been designated for these purposes, will be available from 28 July on the nationality pages of the Home Office website at www.ind.homeoffice.gov.uk or by calling our enquiry line on 0151 237 5200 or writing to the General Enquiries Section at the address given on page 25 of the enclosed guide

Applications made on or after 28 July cannot succeed unless you can demonstrate that you meet the statutory requirements described in the guide including this new language requirement. (An application is made for these purposes on the date that it is received by the Home Office)

The need to fulfil the language requirement may be waived at the discretion of the Secretary of State if he considers that because of the applicant’s age or physical or mental condition it would be unreasonable to expect him to fulfil this requirement.

The language requirement alternatively may be met by having a sufficient knowledge of the language instead of English.

I have contacted the Home Office to find out hwho are "the designated persons?? etc. but no answer as yet.Dont even try to ring

Suggest before you leave LOS with GF get her to do a course in Welsh or Scottish Gaelic......Hots Mon-Man...its a wee braw bricht moon licht nicht the nitch...och aye ra noo....eh nae borra.

[lopburi3]

You do know that "NATURALISATION" and visitor visa are not the same?

[Rinrada]

I did mention the "future"

At the moment I know of quite a number of Thais in the Uk who are going for NATURALISATION" under the 3 year rule (if married to a UK subject-not citizen No bill of rights/Constitution -but thats another thread) or 5 years if single-divorced separated.

As you are aware in future it will be neccessary for the said applicants to prove that they have sufficent knowledge and understanding of what goes on and went on in this country.

eg When and where was the Battle of Banockburn,who won and how did it affect Brit.History.When was the Magna Carta signed and by whom,how many illig,daughters did King whats his name have and which one ended up on the big chair.

Who really runs the shop?.

However as highlighted in my comment the Government are now talking about requiring a Certificated Level of comprehension of our lingo with the poss.requirement of a min standard of ESOL level 3.

This usually takes about a year study at "night school"

It now means that anyone who wants to have a go for the "Nat" process had better get signed up for an English course and put off your application for maybe another year.

Incid.if anyone wants to apply now the normal assessment period for a decision is approx 7-9 months.

Assuming all goes well its then down to the local town hall to take the "oath "and pick up a certificate.

Then you can apply for a UK-EU Passport.

I only highlighted the poss.that sometime in the future it may be neccessary for visitors to the UK and other EU countries requiring a "standard" level of that countrys lingo before getting a said VISA.

Kow san road for ESOLS

Rich countries can afford to do that.....but...as I say the future

[simey]

This is not unusual - in Holland people applying for residency have to demonstrate a certain degree of fluency in the language before they can be accepted. I don't think it's unfair to ask someone applying to become a naturalised citizen of a country to at least speak the basics of the language.

[lopburi3]

Looks like its only a matter of time before your Thai spouse will need a degree in English before he/she will be even considered for a visitors Visa sad.gif

New rules require an English ESOL certificate.

Talk about AirAsia using misleading copy.

I really don't see anything wrong in having some kind of standards to meet for citizenship. US has always had them and Thailand does. Why not the UK?

[Teach]

Looks like its only a matter of time before your Thai spouse will need a degree in English before he/she will be even considered for a visitors Visa sad.gif

New rules require an English ESOL certificate.

Talk about AirAsia using misleading copy.

I really don't see anything wrong in having some kind of standards to meet for citizenship. US has always had them and Thailand does. Why not the UK?

Fine sentiments indeed. In addition to Mother tongue proficiency being a pre-requisite for naturalization. There is also the consideration that the English language is the global tongue along with the rule of law ( though messed with by some to suit-). It is possible for anyone to survive in almost any country speaking English. Not so with an alternate. I have personally witnessed the severe self imposed restrictions placed on an individual in England not speaking the language. Apart from needing an interpreter for just about every single daily function, it impedes that persons ability to advance in that society.

"To live it, you must understand it"

Of course when the next powerhouse (China) come to rule the world. I'll be buggered. I've attempted Mandarin and Cantonese, to no avail.. "shud zhua"

Teach

[Darlek]

[

I really don't see anything wrong in having some kind of standards to meet for citizenship. US has always had them and Thailand does. Why not the UK?

yes a good idea , it stops ethnics creating enclaves and ghettoes , not that thais would though , but the UK is losing its identity .

i guess its aimed at Indian and pakis who dont want to integrate and then usurp the host nation

[Axel]

If one wishes to become a resident in any country should know the language as well as history and basic rights.

Think, this is fair enough, for PR and/or naturalization a dedicated interest to your 'new' country should be expected.

I forgot, don't you need to speak basic Thai if you apply for Thai PR?

[Stocky]

For people wanting to settle in the UK and become citizens it's a great idea.

But if you seriously believe this might be applied at a later date to all visitors then you've been banging your head on the keyboard for too long!

Do you really think a country would want to cripple it's very lucrative tourist industry?

[Aussie]

Looks like its only a matter of time before your Thai spouse will need a degree in English before he/she will be even considered for a visitors Visa

This is your opinion and not a fact, I could say something about the validity of your opinion but that has already been said here.

With regards to the requirements of becoming residents, all postings say basically the same. It's pretty fair to expect people to speak the language of the country where they want to be resident or citizin. People simply don't want the UK full with foreigners who can't even speak English. Logical huh?

[Pink Mist]

Looks like its only a matter of time before your Thai spouse will need a degree in English before he/she will be even considered for a visitors Visa

This is your opinion and not a fact, I could say something about the validity of your opinion but that has already been said here.

With regards to the requirements of becoming residents, all postings say basically the same. It's pretty fair to expect people to speak the language of the country where they want to be resident or citizin. People simply don't want the UK full with foreigners who can't even speak English. Logical huh?

Like it isn't now!!!!

[rexall]

I have taught ESL in Hawaii and five Asian countries since 1989. IMHO, it is unrealistic to expect that anyone who wants to can gain proficiency in English. Far from it. And the later in life one begins serious study, the less likely it becomes. Asian countries spend billions of dollars chasing this unrealistic expectation which only serves to keep people like me employed and frustrate and demoralize millions of students.

It "sounds" reasonable and fair to demand that residents and immigrants function in the language of their adopted country, but in practice it tends to be racist and xenophobic. In fact there are many multi-lingual societies (China, Singapore, Canada come readily to mind) that somehow seem to survive polyglot. How would you like it if LOS demanded that you all had to demonstrate proficiency in Thai in order to stay here and continue to do your monkey business?

Aloha,

Rex

[IamMaiC]

This is impossible for some people!!!

[lopburi3]

How would you like it if LOS demanded that you all had to demonstrate proficiency in Thai in order to stay here and continue to do your monkey business?

Aloha,

Rex

Nobody but you and the original poster have that idea. But for citizenship it is a different ball game and you should know the basic language of the country. It is required here in Thailand:

They must be of the age of majority, be of good character, be gainfully employed, have continuously lived in Thailand for not less than FIVE years and have knowledge of the Thai language. (Section 10) 

[Axel]

In fact there are many multi-lingual societies (China, Singapore, Canada come readily to mind) that somehow seem to survive polyglot. How would you like it if LOS demanded that you all had to demonstrate proficiency in Thai in order to stay here and continue to do your monkey business?

Aloha,

Rex

China is very easy, government language is Mandarin, Singapore treats (still) in English and considers to change to Mandarin. Canada is English and French.

In Switzerland, as an example, one of the 4 official languages is sufficient, although they do prefer you speak Swiss (German) for naturalization (at least in that part of the country).

In Germany laws are under consideration, no knowledge of German language, no naturalization. However, they don't expect you to speak one of the dozends of local dialects; high German, an artificial language is sufficient.

Aloha and what is your monkey business?

[Wolfie]

Half the people in England dont speak english anyway.

Sad but true!

[rexall]

Aloha and what is your monkey business?

I have many different monkey businesses. One of them, as I said, is teacha da Engarishe to da heathens!

My point about polyglot is that while is may seem desirable and reasonable that all members of a society speak a single language, it is only possible in certain very homogeneous countries such as Japan. The many dialects of Chinese are more like different languages than dialects. While Mandarin is the official dialect, the fact is that countless millions of people cannot communicate with people outside of their own group. Again, this may seem undesirable, but is unlikely to change. China has been around for 5,000 years and I believe many have a bright future in spite of polyglot.

Aloha,

Rex

[rexall]

Nobody but you and the original poster have that idea.  But for citizenship it is a different ball game and you should know the basic language of the country . . .

Forget about citizenship! Thailand doesn't want immigration, and makes the process so difficult that the numbers are statistically insignificant and the point is moot. But again I ask, what would the posters here do if the requirements for residency, retirement, work permits as well as the "B" and "O" that long-stays use stipulated a Thai language requirement? Why should LOS put up with all these bloody foreigners who cannot even use the language?

Think about it. What's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander.

Aloha,

Rex

[dr_Pat_Pong]

Nobody but you and the original poster have that idea.  But for citizenship it is a different ball game and you should know the basic language of the country . . .

Forget about citizenship! Thailand doesn't want immigration, and makes the process so difficult that the numbers are statistically insignificant and the point is moot. But again I ask, what would the posters here do if the requirements for residency, retirement, work permits as well as the "B" and "O" that long-stays use stipulated a Thai language requirement? Why should LOS put up with all these bloody foreigners who cannot even use the language?

Think about it. What's good for the goose ought to be good for the gander.

Aloha,

Rex

and of course, Thai's can wander in and out of your homeland at will.

[Stocky]

Half the people in England dont speak english anyway.

Sad but true!

Yeah, have you been to Newcastle?

[rexall]

and of course, Thai's can wander in and out of your homeland at will.

Of course not, Doctor! And I never said that I was opposed to all immigration regulations. But overstays are treated altogether differently in the U.S. than they are in LOS, and there are definite, realistic procedures to follow for obtaining permanent residency and even citizenship, and while they make it difficult for married couples, it is far from impossible.

But my comments were about an English language stipulation for immigration. I just think that it is is very tempting and seems reasonable to want immigrants to learn the "mother tongue" of their adopted country-- but when you look it carefully, the argument begins to break down. And when you realize how few individuals can actually meet a language requirement, no matter how much they want to, it is not very practical.

Aloha,

Rex

Edited August 6, 2004 by rexall

[the scouser]

A requirement of the British Nationality Act (1981) was that a person seeking to be naturalised should be proficient in either English, Welsh, Scottish Gaelic or, believe it or not, Patagonian (basically a load of Welsh sheep farmers who emigrated to Argentina). However, in reality an applicant's ability in any one of these languages was never tested. The only thing that has changed now is that the Immigration and Naturalisation Directorate is asking for the proof.

Scouse.

[jayenram]

What about Yorkshire? I am not aware of a language course that exists to teach Yorkshire. OK, I'm trying to teach it to the FG but it's not easy.

Eee bah gum, al go t'foot of our stairs.

[Rinrada]

New rules require an English ESOL certificate.

IMPORTANT NOTICE TO APPLICANTS FOR NATURALISATION

You must show that you meet this requirement in one of two ways. You can either:

 send a certificate showing that you have attained a qualification in English for Speakers of Other Languages (ESOL) skills for life Entry 3”

send written confirmation from a person designated under the new regulations that you have an alternative qualification which shows that you can speak English to at least ESOL etc

Finally got an answer from the Home Office on this one and a bit of common sense has prevailed.

Firstly just to clarify my original "gripe"..I do/did not object to the requirement for a potential applicant for UK-EU.Naturalisation being considered on the part grounds of having achieved a recognised standard of the local lingo which would allow him/her/them to go about their everyday business and become fully integrated within the said society ...if they so desire.

Indeed I can understand that any country recieving a request for such"legalisation"

could expect a similar level of understanding.In the case of these new legislations the onus has been put on (in this case some Thais that I know)applicants who have already been in country for between 3 and whatever nos. of years,have integrated well but maybe however have been too busy earning a "crust" to find time to take a 1 year ESOL course in English.

I know in particular of one Thai lady who is finally thinking of making her application for "subjectship" (No constituation-No Bill of rights etc ..another thread)

She has been here for over 25 years,is a qualified Sister in our local hospital but does not have any form of English language certificated qualification and in my opinion does not need one.

However as said earlier Home Office has seen sense and now requires that applicants now only need a letter from "a person designated under the new regulations" confirming their ability to "spraken de Anglish" confidently.

I suggest that our Thai Sister would be that person

[Stocky]

I know in particular of one Thai lady who is finally thinking of making her application for "subjectship" (No constituation-No Bill of rights etc ..another thread)

When was the last time you looked at a British passport mine states clearly that I am a British Citizen. There is no need for a written constitution, Britains rights and freedoms are established though the body of law.

[Yohan]

China is very easy, government language is Mandarin, Singapore treats (still) in English and considers to change to Mandarin. Canada is English and French.

In Switzerland, as an example, one of the 4 official languages is sufficient, although they do prefer you speak Swiss (German) for naturalization (at least in that part of the country).

In Germany laws are under consideration, no knowledge of German language, no naturalization. However, they don't expect you to speak one of the dozends of local dialects; high German, an artificial language is sufficient.

Aloha and what is your monkey business?

In Japan any applicant for permanent residence has to show up personally to the Immigration Officer (no assistance allowed) and has to explain his/her reasons why he/she requests permanent residence in spoken Japanese and HANDWRITTEN Japanese (by YOUR own hand, no assistance allowed, but you might prepare your text in advance) -

Beside that, you should add a language certificate by a public institution in Japan to prove your Japanese knowledge by presenting an official paper.

I think, nothing wrong to request immigrants asking for permanent residence or citizenship, that they have a workable knowledge of the local language in return.

In the special case of Great Britain:

English is a very important language, useful for all over this world. English in this sense is not like any other language....No excuse for not studying it!

To avoid misunderstandings, I am talking here about citizenship or permanent residence status, and not about 1-year spouse visa, or tourist visa requirements.

[somtaamgaiyang]

I think this is a very logical and decent step to consider, when one understands that this is entailing that you are taking a British passport and naturlising yourself to be British.

This does not apply to tourists, and most other temporary visas. If you want to be British, you should at least speak passable English. This may well come to effect my wife one day, so I am going to pack her off for classes.

[Rinrada]

Interesting article in local paper last week following up on this topic.

The reporters wife who was an Americian National had decided that after living in the UK for so many years figured it was time to make an application and become a British Subject/Citizen.

Although having a couple of books under her belt and also holding 2 degrees (one in English) she failed the language test and may now have to take a 1 year ESOL course in English.

Story concluded with the fact that even if she had succeeded the U.S.IRS dont take any notice.

[RooBoy]

I was under the impression that you had to have passed Pratom 6 before you could apply for Residency in Thailand.

[samran]

Taken from "The Age", in Melbourne

New language test to become a Brit

By Annabel Crabb

London

August 20, 2004

British mockery of the Australian accent and vernacular has boiled over into outright hostility with new regulations demanding that Australians submit to English language tests before taking out British citizenship.

Home Secretary David Blunkett has decreed that applications for a British passport must be supported by certificates of proficiency in English, supplied by designated English teachers or consular officials.

The Guardian newspaper reported yesterday that a 30-year-old Australian writer had already been rejected, despite her possession of two degrees - one in English and one in public communications. So had a 44-year resident of Britain who had been knighted.

British immigration laws have had an English proficiency requirement for citizenship since 1981, according to a statement from the Home Office, but testing for applicants from English-speaking countries has not been mandatory until now.

The new requirements do, however, appear to contain a loophole for less-than-honest applicants prepared to fake a Welsh accent.

Applicants who speak English have to demonstrate their proficiency, but those who claim to speak the notoriously treacherous and consonant-laden Welsh language, or the indigenous Scottish Gaelic, are exempt from testing.

The new rules apply to Australians as well as Canadians, New Zealanders, Americans and South Africans.

Britons have for years enjoyed close contact with the Australian vernacular thanks to twice-daily screenings of Neighbours and Home and Away. The newly popular Kath and Kim is expanding cultural horizons even further.

But the Home Office insists that Australians applying for British citizenship, which most are entitled to do after five years residency, cannot be assumed to speak English simply because they come from an English-speaking country.

According to guidelines issued by the Home Office last week, successful applicants must be able to perform conversational feats in English from following instructions to describing experiences, hopes and ambitions. Labour MP Sarah Teather has written to Mr Blunkett describing the new process as a bureaucratic nonsense.